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Beyond Trust


Flexmoney
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Kyle:

So I am reading Atlus Shrugged...and in there there is this statement...

"It was the greatest sensation of existence: not to trust, but to know." p. 225

Of course, bells and whistles are going off in my head. You have been touching on this in some of your upper-level post.

I don't know that you have really boiled this down in writing anywhere (other than responses to other's posts)?

I know I can't give the topic the justice it deserves...so, I was hoping you could put the fire to the cooker?

Kyle

Ghost Dog:

Did you post this anywhere?

That is an excellent sentence.

When we don't know, typically we try and struggle in vain.

Better though, is to trust.

Trusting beats trying, but not knowing.

Trying is always wrong.

Trusting implies doubts remaining.

In the rigors of competition, when the pressure of expectations become tremendous, personally, I did my best when I relied on trust.

At times, however, I did reach a state of knowing - when actor and action become one.

Disappear into the action - then come back to collect the check.

Kyle:

It seems we struggle so much with just allowing ourselves to trust...that we may seldom get to the level of knowing.

Ghost Dog:

I'm right with you.

Because trusting implies doubt and involves hope, it is an act of will. So strictly speaking, trusting is trying at its subtlest level. When done properly, however, trusting beats the hell out of trying 7 days a week.

Related to trust is confidence.

You cannot trust if you are not confident.

And the depth of confidence is what matters. Do you know, for certain, at each instant, how to best apply yourself?

IF you've trained to reach a state of total confidence, then - Lose all concern for the future, and trust will melt into knowing, which is a state of continuous learning without accumulation.

I hate you for this... I'm thrashing to get ready to be gone for basically a week, and you arise this wonderful topic of discussion... Thanks. Really. Otherwise my entire day would have been spent just doing crap.

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  • 1 year later...
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I was looking to clean out my PM mailbox...and I still had this conversation in there that Brian and I had.

I knew I had put it out into the forum...but, I don't recall anybody commenting on it. So, I dug it up and decided to bump it to the top...

I am going to tweak the title a bit...

trying...trusting...knowing...

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I'm in a state now where I'm knowing with doubt. I hope I'm not doomed. :(

Which leads me to ask; is trusting the last thing you learn?

Knowing with doubt is trusting. It may be the next to last thing one learns, but if so one will never know. The last thing one learns is death.

The process goes from trying to trusting to knowing.

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  • 1 year later...

I did a search and found this thread and it fits what I was going to post perfectly.

Admin, this would probably make a great "Sticky" so that new members/shooters get to it.

I was talking to my Dad last night and I mentioned a dream I had about the bad guys breaking in and me shooting at them and nothing happens, the bullets fall out of the muzzle of my gun, the bulets turn to dust while in the air, etc. etc. My Dad said "You don't trust your skills. You subconsciously doubt your abilities and that's why your stuck where you are at in your shooting."

Now I'm going to give a little history about my Old Man; He served 3 tours in Vietnam as a Scout/Sniper with the Marine Corps and was on the Corps Rifle Team. He took second place to Carlos Hathcock regularly as they shot on the same team. The man knows how to chuck lead a long way accurately.

Basically the rest of the conversation was about this topic and what I took away from it was this;

Your mind and body have to trust your training. You have to rely on the training to work when putting the skills into action. Here's where I tend to differ in my thinking from the discussion between B.E. and Flex because I'm speaking of pure, subconscious trust. This isn't the same trust you see when someone stands and falls backwards allowing others to catch them, that's concsious trust. I'm speaking of your body and subconscious mind trusting your skills to perform the task at hand. B.E. and Flex spoke of "Knowing" but knowing is a concsious thought action. Subconscious trust is what happens when you've shot a stage and smoked it but can't remember shooting it. Subconscious trust is what is happening when you can stand outside yourself and trust enough to watch yourself perform.

When I asked my Dad how I get there he said "You have to start with conscious trust and train it into your subconscious just as you do with your reloads, draws, sight acquisition etc. only it's a lot harder." He said "Most of the time when you have two really good competitors up against each other winning comes down to the one who trusts himself the most."

The Quarterback throws the ball trusting that it's going to hit the spot he threw it at, not trusting the receiver to catch it and the Receiver trusts that he's going to catch the ball, not that the Quarterback is going to hit the spot to where he threw it. They both "know" that the other will perform the task necessary to complete the play.

You shoot at the target trusting that your sight picture is proper, trigger control is accomplished, follow through is good, not trusting that there will be hits on the target, you "know" the hits will be there.

Edited by Bigbadaboom
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My take.. This is some great insight not only to this game but that can be generally applied to many things in life. I haven't even shot my first match yet & I've already realized that the shooting is the easy part. There is so much more in repeatability, seeing, & reflex. Reflex as an automatic response or reaction can & does come from programing yourself for that response or reaction through training. When the time comes to perform you don't have think you just do. I'm not talking about blindly going out into the zombie zone & blasting away but being prepaired, trusting that preperation & then let go & perform.

Now if I only had more hours in the day.. <_<

Something my Dad loves to say.. Proper Prior Planing Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

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The process goes from trying to trusting to knowing.

This is where I am at now. I am beginning to leave "trust in the dust" and am knocking on "knowings" door (more like pounding).

For a while I was stuck in the "trust mode" but at a sub-conscious I really was not aware and therefore not knowing at the sub-conscious level. Now when I finsh a drill or stage (regardless of the outcome) I know. Time slows (or at least the conscious perception of time) and an awareness takes over almost on demand (not 100% yet but soon). When I can become consistant on the "on demand" issue of awareness I will have "arrived" at one of my goals.

That is the cool part beyond trust, IS knowing.

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The process goes from trying to trusting to knowing.

This is where I am at now. I am beginning to leave "trust in the dust" and am knocking on "knowings" door (more like pounding).

For a while I was stuck in the "trust mode" but at a sub-conscious I really was not aware and therefore not knowing at the sub-conscious level. Now when I finsh a drill or stage (regardless of the outcome) I know. Time slows (or at least the conscious perception of time) and an awareness takes over almost on demand (not 100% yet but soon). When I can become consistant on the "on demand" issue of awareness I will have "arrived" at one of my goals.

That is the cool part beyond trust, IS knowing.

Again, "Knowing" is a consciuos thought, your subconscious cannot "Know" anything. It can only act in the way it has learned to.

It's just like when someone asks "What would you do in (fill in blank) situation?" You can say "I would do such-n-such or so-n-so but you don't really know untill you're put in that situation because your going to react in however your subconsciuos trusts you to react.

My Brother is always talking about people who drive like Idiots and how he's going to allow someone to crash into him and "Buy my truck for me". But, every time he is in the situation his subconscious takes over and performs the way it has learned to trust and he avoids the accident no matter how bad he wants to "Sell his truck."

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Trust for me also leaves doubt, knowing leaves none:

eg; placeing my hand on a red hot surface will be uncomfortable, I do not trust, but know.

When I shoot a stage/drill at a sub-conscious level I know where all of my rounds will hit, where my reloads will occur, where my foooting will be at any given time during the stage/drill, before any action has taken place.

The confirmation of this prior knowledge is in the conscious recall after completion of the stage/drill, not during.

What I would like to achieve is being able to "know" at consistant rate every time I shoot and as of yet I am not there, when it does occur (for me) I have gone beyond trust to knowledge prior to any action.

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Trust for me also leaves doubt, knowing leaves none:

eg; placeing my hand on a red hot surface will be uncomfortable, I do not trust, but know.

Conscious thought.

When I shoot a stage/drill at a sub-conscious level I know where all of my rounds will hit, where my reloads will occur, where my footing will be at any given time during the stage/drill, before any action has taken place.

I disagree with this statement. It would be better to state that you believe you know where they are going to happen. When some outside force interupts your actions things don't happen where you plan i.e. malfunctions, lost footing, etc.

The confirmation of this prior knowledge is in the conscious recall after completion of the stage/drill, not during.

trust pron.jpg ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trubreve.gifst)

n.

  1. Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.

You have to rely on your subconscious to perform.

I'm not sure if you read my post that brought this thread back from Jan. 2005 but I'm not refering to consciuos thought at all and "Knowing" is only conscious thought. Your subconscious cannot "Know" anything and you cannot "Know" how your subconsciuos is going to react to outside forces when performing through trained instictive memory, you can only rely on your training. Conscious thought while performing slows us down because our conscious mind can only think about or "Know" one thing at a time.

What I would like to achieve is being able to "know" at consistant rate every time I shoot and as of yet I am not there, when it does occur (for me) I have gone beyond trust to knowledge prior to any action.

I believe the knowledge you are speaking of is the knowledge that you will perform as you prep the stage and this knowledge is important but when you get to the line it's important that you clear your mind and perform instictively allowing your subconscious to work, therefore, relying on or "Trusting" your training and abilities.

Edited by Bigbadaboom
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at whatever level we shoot..you get to a point where you know how to perform..we strive in practice to hone those skills, to make them efficient and to build consistency.

At some point in that process..the skill passes from conscious thought to subconcious thought.. we know how to do this..

my take would be that at whatever level you are..

you subconscious knows ( how to shoot)

because of our continual training.. this knowledge changes..and with this the issue of trust and doubt.

Our conscious mind trusts what our subconcious knows..

but our conscious mind is what casts doubt.

so that is our struggle..to build and train in a consistency that our subconcious can know and our conscious can trust..

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Daniel,

I think there is a disconnect with regards to the terms and the definitions that we associate with them.

The "knowing" that started this thread isn't conscious thought. At least, not according to how I think of conscious thought, which is single thoughts happening in series...one, then another, then another, etc.

The "knowing" that we opened this thread with isn't singular, linear, nor progressive.

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Our conscious mind trusts what our subconcious knows..

This or vice versa is the point I'm trying to get at. All I really know is that my Dad was trying to tell me that I have to train how to completely trust my skills and training and stop allowing my conscious mind to get in the way by "Making sure" I'm doing it right.

In other words I have to trust my knowledge. ;)

Edited by Bigbadaboom
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Our conscious mind trusts what our subconcious knows..

This or vice versa is the point I'm trying to get at. All I really know is that My Dad was trying to tell me that I have to train how to completely trust my skills and training and stop allowing my conscious mind to get in the way by "Making sure" I'm doing it right.

In other words I have to trust my knowledge. ;)

I think we are saying the same thing..unless I am misusing some terms..

but what I mean ...is that the skills building and training we do..is where we want our subconcious mind perform at..and knowing that we know how to do this..we must get our conscious mind to accept the trust that we have the skills. it is our conscious mind that enters in with doubt or uncertainty that interupts what our subconscious mind knows how to do perfectly from the training.

does that make any sense?????

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Our conscious mind trusts what our subconcious knows..

This or vice versa is the point I'm trying to get at. All I really know is that My Dad was trying to tell me that I have to train how to completely trust my skills and training and stop allowing my conscious mind to get in the way by "Making sure" I'm doing it right.

In other words I have to trust my knowledge. ;)

I think we are saying the same thing..unless I am misusing some terms..

but what I mean ...is that the skills building and training we do..is where we want our subconcious mind perform at..and knowing that we know how to do this..we must get our conscious mind to accept the trust that we have the skills. it is our conscious mind that enters in with doubt or uncertainty that interupts what our subconscious mind knows how to do perfectly from the training.

does that make any sense?????

Absolutely. ;)

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Trust for me also leaves doubt, knowing leaves none:

eg; placeing my hand on a red hot surface will be uncomfortable, I do not trust, but know.

Conscious thought.

I wouldn't say that is conscious thought because you don't think about not touching the burner. Not after burning yourself once, anyway. The description "sounds like" it's a conscious process, but the activity is not.

All I really know is that My Dad was trying to tell me that I have to train how to completely trust my skills and training and stop allowing my conscious mind to get in the way by "Making sure" I'm doing it right.

In other words I have to trust my knowledge.

I think if you really get that, that's about as much as you need to think about it.

;)

If I can reduce a topic as complex and subject to as much mis-interpretation as this one, it helps to better sort out and act upon the things I've learned while training and competing.

To me, being "conscious" means the same thing as being "aware": "To be mindful or heedful of something." (From my Dictionary.) A clear understanding of what is meant by the word "something," in that sentence, is critical. "Something" can be one thing, in the case of thought, or an unlimited number things, as in being acutely aware of many things that are happening simultaneously.

Even being conscious of just one thing isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on the circumstances. If I were shooting Bullseye, focusing all my attention on the front sight and turning over all other motor skills to my knowing, unconscious mind, works fairly well most of the time. But in the fast paced, multiple-targets-at-any-distance world of IPSC shooting, we must learn to keep track of many things at the same time. To do that, we must learn how to maintain a moving, flowing state of awareness, which will, as in the "focusing on the front sight" example, turn over all our learned skills to be done uninterruptedly by our silent, knowing mind.

First we must train for years until we have no doubts about what is the best way to do everything. Then we train some more.

The challenge competition provides is that we only get one chance to do what we've trained for years to perfect, so doubt creeps into our performance. When we doubt, we "try." And if we are trying anything at all, we cannot maintain a subtle, flowing state of awareness, because the two states oppose each other. So we fail, wonder why, and try again. Eventually, "something happens" and we experience a wonderful, effortless performance that matches or even sometimes seems to exceed our capacity. Now we're really hooked. We're beginning to understand what it all comes down to in the end, and the satisfying feeling that results from doing something under pressure to the upmost of our ability keeps driving us. Right about that time we understand for the first time the meaning and value of "trusting." But still, "I know if I only do this, that "that" will happen," is challenged by the fear produced by knowing you only get one shot to do it right in the match. With repeated trusting-driven experiences, however, we doubt less and less and trust more and more. Eventually, we just start "doing," and everything seems much simpler now. Now our ego becomes the problem because our self image becomes associated to our actions and results. Realizing that, in my later years of competition, was why I once told a friend that I have to "Disappear" during the match." "Then I can come back later to collect the cash." Well, in the ol' days anyway.

:D

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Now our ego becomes the problem because our self image becomes associated to our actions and results
.

There is that DOUBT crap popping up again, so it's back to train/pratice more until physical limitations cease all progress. Then all that is left is the knowing.

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Knowing for me overrides everything else. It surpasses confidence, trusting, wanting, trying and literally throws them out of my head. With knowing theres no room for anything else, knowing will not allow anything else in. All you know is that you know and everything is effortless and just happens. Knowing is a great thing. I had started a topic about "In the Zone", knowing is a good way to decribe this state for me and how I understand it and look at it. There is no other options, there is no other way it will happen except the way you know it will...........and the best thing is it happens exactly that way without trying or even thinking about it. I love that feeling.

I had that feeling already this yr on a classifier, knowing put me into M class. I have been putting some thought into how I achieved that state of mind and what I did to place my mind there. I wish I had more time to just think about these things, maybe later in life, have diapers to change now and Easter Eggs to hide this weekend.

Flyin40

Edited by Flyin40
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