Does your range utilize No Blue Sky Baffles?

[wooddog]

Our range is undergoing changes and needs to install overhead baffles. We are doing it in such a way as to NOT have to use a fixed firing point. Any one else out there have to undertake this task or currently have the same situation? Civilization is great until it creeps up on your range!

[mwx40x40]

We have this system at our range

It will put some serious limitations on stage design due to the supports for the overhead baffles. So far our club has not complained as we run our USPSA matches at the end of the range past these baffles. I think they are mainly there when we are open to the public and they all shoot from the same covered firing line.

[Chills1994]

Our range has it, and it sucks. We haven't had matches in at least 2 years, probably more like 3 or 4. Our club has some other ongoing legal problems, which is one of the reasons we haven't had matches.

We have 2, 50 yard bays, 1, 100 and 1, 200 .

The problem with our baffle design was that the baffles (essentially wooden boxes filled with pea gravel, set about 8 feet off the ground) are supported by 6 by 6 inch pressure treated posts.

Even at a members only range where people pay big bucks to be a yearly member, we still have idiots who shoot the 6 by 6 posts.

As you might know, one of the 4 Universal laws of gun safety is to be sure of your target and what is behind it.

We have to shoot straight ahead. The target stands are anchored to the ground, so there is no moving them. There is also no transitioning between two targets because there might be one of the baffle supports 20 yards behind that target, if you're NOT shooting straight ahead.

so basically the range is only good for zero'ing guns and chrono'ing ammo.

If your club has to do it, my advice would be to go with all steel baffle supports. If you can afford even more steel, a horizontal I beam between supports would be ideal, that way you can get a greater span than if you just used wood (i.e. the vertical supports will be spaced farther apart).

I am thinking that if you went with steel vertical supports, a steel "box" column turned 45 degrees (set on a bias) would be ideal. That way if anyone does shoot the steel it will only be a glancing blow. The only catch will be that attaching a horizontal I beam between two kaddy-whompass box columns would involved some trial and error fitting and some rather involved welding.

Clark Vargas designed our range/baffle system, BTW.

[bofe954]

One of the bays at my range has an overhead baffle. It keeps the snow and rain out so it isn't all bad. Ours is like a roof a good twenty feet above the ground, steel supports. None of the supports are in the middle of the range, all are out on the perimeter.

At the line it isn't real noticeable (other than the lack of sky). If you move forward of the line the sound kind of reverberates and is kind of annoying but useable. I always double plug in there.

We don't use that bay for action pistol. We also have no side berms at that range so we are stuck only shooting in one direction anyway.

I could try and get pics if you want. Might take a week or two.

Edited February 21, 2009 by bofe954

[wooddog]

We are trying to design the baffles so that they will interfere the least with action shooting. The majority of people in he committee are action shooters and I am the outdoor range chairman. Our firs plan was such that we could shoot forward of the baffles, but we ran into quite a bit of resistance from the BOD. Our action ranges are 50X30, 50X35, 75X35 and two short and squat ranges that are about 35X35. I am pretty confident we can get a spacing of 16 - 20 feet for upright posts which if placed right can certainly be maneuvered around and perhaps use to support walls, barricades etc...

[Chills1994]

I had emailed Clark Vargas quite a bit. We went back and forth several times. He said that shooting within 15 yards of the back berm for action pistol competitions would be fine. going to 25 yards would be a stretch.

As far as making baffles mobile..... I don't know about that

For our baffles, imagine... let's say a 5 and a half inch thick by 4 foot tall by at least 12 foot long wooden (pressure treated, probably yellow pine) box filled with gravel that is 8 feet off the ground... imagine how much that would weigh.

Now imagine how much of a wind load that would have to take.

The 6X6 posts were sunk into concrete footings that I would say are at least 2 feet in diameter, maybe 3, reinforced with a circular/cylindrical rebar cage, and I think at least six feet deep. Probably deeper actually.

At one point, I did have a copy of the plans.

I don't mean to be cantankerous here, but I think if you're club is that worried about a bullet getting out of the range by the action shooters then they seriously need to compare the price for erecting all these baffles versus just putting in an indoor range.

IIRC, my gun club president said that each baffle cost $10K. We have 15 baffles.

Cha ching!

Another thing that Clark Vargas passed along was that if you have 3,800 feet beyond the back berm not occupied by anybody or anything then you don't need the baffles. That becomes an "impact area".

yeah, I know... the rest of you all following along at home... it doesn't seem like that much of a distance considering the little box of .22's says it can fly for like 2.5 miles.

That's just what he emailed me.

[wooddog]

What we are thinking at this point is really almost like a decking above our heads about 8 feet off the ground of 4X12 rough sawn or 2X12 material (doubled up) spaced 12"

Edited February 22, 2009 by wooddog

[wooddog]

I know... pretty large in scale but so far several builders seem to think doable

[Range Doctor]

Your range is oviously designed as a static "shoot from the covered firing line only" "No Blue Sky" range. If the Board gave permission to circunvent the design they take the resposiblity. If you shoot action stages with proper stage desig no further back than 15 yards from the toe of the backstop you limit the probability of getting a round out, but you don't eliminate the possibility of such occurring.

[Range Doctor]

If this is the Caseyville range this range was designed as a static range. No action shooting was to take place. The 5 action bays planned were never built because of cost.

This range is under litigation with the county since it was opened and getting a bullet out,is out will shut it down for sure.

Any time you see rock cribb baffles its a static range, and no action shooting should be llowed. Look up the Mgic bullet case in Texas its on my web pg.

As to ballistics regardless of calibers, 17,000 ft is used for rifle rounds, and 12,000 for pistol. So the 3800 ft. you quote is something else.

Please look up the numerous articles I have written or the transcripts of the two National range symposyums I have given. If you still have the email please send back. I will search my company files to see what was written.

[Range Doctor]

What I think you are describing is a wooden trellis baffle for action shooting this is a standard design. Go to my web pg cvaltd.com and look for the pictures of the "Sawgrass Range". Thatis Bill rodgers home range. Like Bill Drills.

[Range Doctor]

Your action rages can be baffled economically, not cheaply, with wood trellis baffles. the maximum wdth between posts would be 20 ft so plan for two sub bays between the berms. With proper stage design you couls still run and gun. If you must have wider bays we can span greater , but the cost goes up

[Range Doctor]

To make this bay an action range it needs to have a backstop and two side berms. The open back is protedted by the range rule "keep the firearm pointed down range". The concrete roof covers the top.

Backstops are designed to 20 ft in ht. They are designed to stop and store the bullet for future recovery, so acess to bacstops have to be provided in the design.

Side berms usually 8 to 10 ft should not be shot into unles they are also made 20 ft high and the stages are desgned such the the 180 of the shot direction to the side does ot reach the open back of the bay ie. muzzle down range all the time and 180 stays in the bay. Squads need to be behind all that.

[Range Doctor]

I'm the range designer the post below are talking about. If you still have questions contact me at cvargas@cvaltd.com, I have been misquoted or missunderstood below.

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, pour some coffee, iced tea, whatever you drink, you're going to get the condensed version of baffle engineering for action shooting.

Background: our club had the same problem, civilization moving in. We had complaints, suffered legal action, and not only beat the township silly, but precipitated a change in State law that resulted in shooting range protection.

First step: expunge all thoughts of gravel-filled "billboards" downrange. They require massive posts, that have to be anchored, and are exquisitely sensitive to being shot. They also limit you to a single firing line, with no lateral movement either.

What you want are 2"x12" rough-sawn wooden boards, on one-foot centers. Think; your basement rafters. The structure to hold these (we've built a few designs in the last two decades) can be as simple as four 6X6 posts, with a boxed set of rafters on top. That box, which can be as wide as the longest boards you get, does not need footings. At least not for us. Simply place the ends of the verticals on boards, to distribute the load, and you're cool. (Well we're cool. Our ranges are at the bottom of valleys, surrounded by trees. No wind load, If your range has wind exposure, you may need to tie them down somehow.) A single-box array need only be high enough to clear muzzles.

The next step up is to build an array of posts. If you think of four of the single-box arrays, built together and tied into a single structure, you now can have a quite suitable maneuver area. You'll want to make this higher, as it can't be moved, once erected.

If you need more depth (down towards the berm) just erect more "boxes." Yes, it does present a row of posts, but here's a fun part: the structure can be jacked for support, to replace a post that has been hit too many times. (We haven't had to do it yet, in 20 years, but we had that in mind when we designed this stuff)

Our latest one is a steel vertical and box sections, with wooden planks as the ballistics part. Curiously, you can hear the thing vibrate when you shoot something big enough under it.

Extra info and FAQs;

The limits of a structure such as this are simple: you can move from the back board, forward to a point where you can see blue sky. If you see sky, you're a board or two too far. You can move laterally, but you are very limited in lateral shooting. You can't shoot into a side berm at too great an angle, (assuming the impact berm is the NRA minimum 20 ft high) because if you do, you can see blue sky between the boards. This will get you some grief from stubborn (one might even say obstinate) course designers who take the "free style" attitude towards stage design a little too seriously. They will complain that the limits you put on them make it too much like shooting indoors. All I can say is, when you go to design your stage, RTFM, range version.

Unlike the billboard design, you can be standing in any location under the baffles, where your line of fire does not afford you the sight of sky over your backstop/berm. The higher your berm, or the closer your baffles are to it, the more forward you can go. So, before you build baffles, get the backstop as high as you can pile it.

Examples; we have a 20-40 yard range that has its front boards some twenty yards from the backstop. The angles work out such that you can shoot "three boards back" as the backstop is tall enough that you can step almost to the front edge of it and be kosher. Our hundred-yard range has baffles that only extend some twenty yards forward of the 100-yard line. But, because the backstop on that range is a towering 60 feet, we can use it as a maneuver range, and hold handgun matches on it. If that range had the typical twenty-foot berm as a backstop, it would be a "sit at the bench and shoot" only range. Again, build your berms as high as you can.

The boards take advantage of the initial yaw of a bullet, and as such its inability to penetrate well at very close range. At ten feet, a .30-06 150 fmj bullet, fired from a Garand, will stop in the third board. (Personal testing, before we began construction.)

If you have a tight line of sight, with the last boards (we angled our last array down at a slight angle, to confine shot angles, on some ranges) the end boards will occasionally get hit. We replace the end boards every five years or so, not because they have been shot so much they lose ballistic integrity, but because it begins to look like we have a bunch of yahoos or cops shooting on our range. When we had the NRA range expert come out to approve our design (they were big advocates of the "billboard" design) he looked at it, and said "Fine, but you'll have to replace those front boards every year." We replaced the front boards on the first array some eight years later.

Last, stage designers are going to love the idea of close targets on the ground. If "civilization" is close, bullets bounce out, too. For those you'll need a "pup-tent." That's an inverted V, with the back made of rubber conveyor belt material, or plywood. Put the target on the front, and when someone shoots, the bullets go down at a sharp angle and strike the ground, Those few that skip (not all will) will be absorbed by the belt or plywood.

I've got photos of this stuff, and when I get a chance I'll post them in this or a later entry.

[Duane Thomas]

Thatis Bill rodgers home range. Like Bill Drills.

Actually the Bill Drill was invented by Bill Wilson, and popularized by our host and Robbie Leatham who named it for its originator.

[Chills1994]

first off, welcome to the forums Clark Vargas.

secondly, no, the range that our original poster is talking about is NOT the Caseyville range.....which is in southwestern Illinois. I am ASSuming that wooddog is talking about a range in Massachusetts.

I am a life member of the caseyville club.

if I recall correctly, back when wooddog posted this thread back in 2009 I sent him several private messages on the topic.

[Range Doctor]

OK, pour some coffee, iced tea, whatever you drink, you're going to get the condensed version of baffle engineering for action shooting.

Background: our club had the same problem, civilization moving in. We had complaints, suffered legal action, and not only beat the township silly, but precipitated a change in State law that resulted in shooting range protection.

First step: expunge all thoughts of gravel-filled "billboards" downrange. They require massive posts, that have to be anchored, and are exquisitely sensitive to being shot. They also limit you to a single firing line, with no lateral movement either.

What you want are 2"x12" rough-sawn wooden boards, on one-foot centers. Think; your basement rafters. The structure to hold these (we've built a few designs in the last two decades) can be as simple as four 6X6 posts, with a boxed set of rafters on top. That box, which can be as wide as the longest boards you get, does not need footings. At least not for us. Simply place the ends of the verticals on boards, to distribute the load, and you're cool. (Well we're cool. Our ranges are at the bottom of valleys, surrounded by trees. No wind load, If your range has wind exposure, you may need to tie them down somehow.) A single-box array need only be high enough to clear muzzles.

The next step up is to build an array of posts. If you think of four of the single-box arrays, built together and tied into a single structure, you now can have a quite suitable maneuver area. You'll want to make this higher, as it can't be moved, once erected.

If you need more depth (down towards the berm) just erect more "boxes." Yes, it does present a row of posts, but here's a fun part: the structure can be jacked for support, to replace a post that has been hit too many times. (We haven't had to do it yet, in 20 years, but we had that in mind when we designed this stuff)

Our latest one is a steel vertical and box sections, with wooden planks as the ballistics part. Curiously, you can hear the thing vibrate when you shoot something big enough under it.

Extra info and FAQs;

The limits of a structure such as this are simple: you can move from the back board, forward to a point where you can see blue sky. If you see sky, you're a board or two too far. You can move laterally, but you are very limited in lateral shooting. You can't shoot into a side berm at too great an angle, (assuming the impact berm is the NRA minimum 20 ft high) because if you do, you can see blue sky between the boards. This will get you some grief from stubborn (one might even say obstinate) course designers who take the "free style" attitude towards stage design a little too seriously. They will complain that the limits you put on them make it too much like shooting indoors. All I can say is, when you go to design your stage, RTFM, range version.

Unlike the billboard design, you can be standing in any location under the baffles, where your line of fire does not afford you the sight of sky over your backstop/berm. The higher your berm, or the closer your baffles are to it, the more forward you can go. So, before you build baffles, get the backstop as high as you can pile it.

Examples; we have a 20-40 yard range that has its front boards some twenty yards from the backstop. The angles work out such that you can shoot "three boards back" as the backstop is tall enough that you can step almost to the front edge of it and be kosher. Our hundred-yard range has baffles that only extend some twenty yards forward of the 100-yard line. But, because the backstop on that range is a towering 60 feet, we can use it as a maneuver range, and hold handgun matches on it. If that range had the typical twenty-foot berm as a backstop, it would be a "sit at the bench and shoot" only range. Again, build your berms as high as you can.

The boards take advantage of the initial yaw of a bullet, and as such its inability to penetrate well at very close range. At ten feet, a .30-06 150 fmj bullet, fired from a Garand, will stop in the third board. (Personal testing, before we began construction.)

If you have a tight line of sight, with the last boards (we angled our last array down at a slight angle, to confine shot angles, on some ranges) the end boards will occasionally get hit. We replace the end boards every five years or so, not because they have been shot so much they lose ballistic integrity, but because it begins to look like we have a bunch of yahoos or cops shooting on our range. When we had the NRA range expert come out to approve our design (they were big advocates of the "billboard" design) he looked at it, and said "Fine, but you'll have to replace those front boards every year." We replaced the front boards on the first array some eight years later.

Last, stage designers are going to love the idea of close targets on the ground. If "civilization" is close, bullets bounce out, too. For those you'll need a "pup-tent." That's an inverted V, with the back made of rubber conveyor belt material, or plywood. Put the target on the front, and when someone shoots, the bullets go down at a sharp angle and strike the ground, Those few that skip (not all will) will be absorbed by the belt or plywood.

I've got photos of this stuff, and when I get a chance I'll post them in this or a later entry.

[Range Doctor]

I concur with what Patrick wrote about his range.

The billboard baffles he refers to are the Gravel cribb baffles used to limit shot in a static one firing line bull eye range.

The Action shooting , baffles that are are described overhead , is refred to as venetian blind baffles.

What was most important to me, in what he wrote , as someone who looks after shooting range longevity, is that in fact in this range after stage set ups, is that an SRO reviwes the stage for safety and he has the final word.

Additionally, changing shot up boards periodically even if they are structurally sound is pollitically astut. It allways presents the range in its best light. If you ever were to be inspected by an agreived pleintiff legal team. They will not be able to testify "The range is all shot up".

We have been recommednding one single venetian stle baffle at the front of every covered firing line that eliminates all the blue sky from the standing possition, for years now. These are very effective psycologically to the non shooter who commes to inspect, if he can't see blue sky they automatically assume the bullet trajectory will be intercepted by the structure!.

good shooting

[Flexmoney]

I brought this thread back up, as a member was asking about running action matches with a baffled range. I think there are some videos out there showing the range at Livingston (see post #15) ??

[JAFO]

Yes, that would be me.

Our range owner is baffling proactively due to encroaching neighborhoods and a recently built elementary school (who the hell decides it's a good idea to build an elementary school half a mile from an established gun range?!?!? ). The owner is using the venetian blind approach.

Currently, only one of the bays we use has been baffled. The baffling covers only the back half of the bay, but it's like a forest of posts. This is the bay the range usually keeps three Bianchi racks setup in, and they sit towards the back of the baffling. The baffling has 4x6 posts faced with angle iron spaced 10' apart front to back and 12' apart left to right. So the bay looks like this:

The remaining action bays that have not been covered are used as rental bays when we're not using them, so there is no official firing line, but I don't know for certain how far back the baffles are planned. The remaining bays measure:

Bay 1: 62' X 95'

Bay 2: 58' X 64'

Bay 7: 37' X 74'

Bay 8: 46' X 74'

We are hoping to find an alternative or modification that will eliminate or significantly decrease the number of support posts. As mentioned in some of the above posts, it becomes quite a challenge to design stages in this bay that are free of shoot-throughs into steel-faced posts. Reading Patrick's post above about being able to jack the baffling to replace support posts has me thinking about recommending concrete footers with brackets to bolt the uprights into, then leave off the metal facing. At least then we'd be shooting through into wood instead of steel, but at the same time we increase the repair costs to the range.

So I was wondering if anyone can answer some of the following questions:

How long of a span can reasonably be covered with a "venetian blind" type baffle?

Could you use steel horizontals fronted with wood to increase the span?

Have there been any improvements in baffle design since this thread was originally created?

My thanks to anyone who can provide me with some alternatives to present to the range. If we have to run five stages between posts, our creativity in stage design could become stale rather quickly.

Edited July 6, 2012 by JAFO

[JAFO]

I've e-mailed the handgun competition coordinator at Livingston to see if they can provide me with any additional information on their baffle design and construction.

Any other input would be greatly appreciated.

[wooddog]

So, we have been at work on our range since 2009.

Berms raised to 20-25ft.

100 yard range Has been fully baffled using combination of steel baffles that span 40 feet along with "floor joist" sytem.

The 50' range is started and is spanned 36 feet utilizing steel joists and girders to suspend floor joist system.

I will post pics soon.

We lucked out by having a member who is a retired engineer who happens to love a challenge and lives within 10 mins of the range. Mr. Vargas would do well by hiring him as his New England consultant.

We have a few dedicated members who volunteer and a BOD that knows we have to do this work.

NOT CHEAP! With out free labor probably would not be being done this way and we would be a "stand here and shoot there only club". As a multi year project I figure it to be about 250k total.

[Biloxi23]

The air national Guardpistol range in Gulfport has sheets of plywood suspended on chains from the steel beams. they are approcimately 12 feet off the ground and are slanted towards the inmpact area. Side walls are reinforced concrete. there are 25 shooting lanes. the big drawback is teh noise to the shooters. It is LOUD. also, it requires the use of large floor fans to ensure that lead particles are blown to the berm end. the fans add to teh noise level, but do add a cooling breeze (wind tunnle velicities) down the shooting lanes. these requirements were put in due to new regulations imposed because of the airport that the range is located on. I will ask the Range Master about the possibility of gettng photos to post.

[wooddog]

We are almost done with another range. Notice no supports in the shooting lanes keeps it very usable for action shooting