Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Does time slow down?


Pittbug

Recommended Posts

I have had the perception of "time slowing down" 3 times that I can recall. The first time was when I was rear ended by a Chevy truck while I was on my motorcycle. The number of conscious thoughts and decisions that can be made in just a fraction of time is amazing.

the other 2 time were while shooting.

The first, I had only been shooting IDPA for about 2-3 months, it just happened. Thats the only explanation I have for it. I did have the fastest overall time (by a full second IIRC)on that stage.

The second time I was shooting steel in dallas and I this was my third steel match and had been into IDPA for about 6months. My focus was on the trigger as I was working on trigger control. All of my thoughts were on working the trigger properly. I didnt care so much about the rest. I still vividly remember every motion used to manipulate the trigger just enough to fire and just enough to reset careful to keep constant contact with it. I felt everything that had to do with the trigger, as it would break and reset and I could even hear it reset. I could see the smoke as it swirled around my slide. My transitions seemed to be one fluid movement from start to finish.

I think the key to this is being able to clear your mind and shift your complete focus to the task at hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

To other people this is all a blur of motion; for us it's like shooting a fun but not particularly challenging arcade game. We do not feel rushed at all while doing this, because over years of training to execute skills, and process and react to visual input, in fractions of a second, our perception of time, not just at a match but in general, has distorted WAY beyond what most people consider "normal".

Yep, training does have benifits. There's a big difference between being uncertain about what you can do, and knowing you can do something. Not to mention that having done something before is a great confidence builder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Much here to study....
You said a mouthful there. I'll toss this out. From personal experience (30 years in the emergency services) and a lot of years behind the trigger, it seems to me the notion of inducing tachypsychia into your shooting might be good for a rush, but what a recipe for a disaster on the scorecard.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to downplay the importance of focusing on the front sight to occupy the conscious mind, thus allowing the subconscious mind to run the shooting but..... I have over the years come to the conclusion that, at the higher levels, the ability to "see fast" is not something we turn on and off, it's something that is always with us.

I'll give an example. Years ago when I was assigned to Fort Bragg - I was really young at this time, I think, like, 20 - I was sitting in this one Staff Sergeant's office, who happened to be a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, talking. Somehow I wound up mentioning that I had read in a book that, to normal people who get to see a highly trained martial artist in a real fight with an opponent who is not also a highly trained martial artist, it often seems to the observer that the martial artist moves to block a blow before the attacker even starts to throw it. I asked him if part of that was that, over years of training, your reflexes improve that much.

At the time he answered this question he happened to have a half-empty cup of coffee sitting on the edge of his desk between us. His answer: "It's not really about faster reflexes. I'm not saying that doesn't happen a bit with all the training, but it's mostly that we see them beginning to move so early, and we're able to react to that and move significantly ourselves, before they've moved enough that the observer even notices it." Then he gestured at the coffee cup. "If you were to suddenly knock that coffee cup off the desk, there's no doubt in my mind I could catch it before it hit the ground. I could probably catch it before it tipped enough to spill a single drop. And that's not because my reflexes are so phenomenally fast. They're not. It's because I'd see it beginning to happen in time to get my hand under the cup before it even left the table."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know that there is a unique ability to "see fast." Given comparable eyesight, two people will see the same thing, but one may interpret what he sees much faster.

I used the baseball analogies because I played some form of organized baseball for thirty years-- shortstop until the legs gave out. So that's what I know best.

By the time I was 15 or 16, I recognized that I could read the batters swing, and knew if the ball was going to be hit to my right or my left before the batter made contact. Coaches just decided I was quick, but I knew I wasn't any quicker then most other shortstops. I just got a head start to the ball. Other players "saw" the same thing I did, but never learned to "read" it.

Everybody pretty much sees the same thing, but not everyone has learned enough about "what" they are seeing. That takes some time, and some real effort.

The physical world is pretty predictable. If you see "A" then "B" is on the way. The problem is seeing "A" for what it is, and not just uncritically accepting "B."

Edited by Ray R.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is kinda heavy. Have you ever been put in a situation where you had to accept your own certain death? I was once, after a bad accident in a remote place, able to do that and it changed my perception of time, and many other facets of life for ever. I realized afterward, that time is the most trivial concern I can possibly have. I saw eternity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is kinda heavy. Have you ever been put in a situation where you had to accept your own certain death? I was once, after a bad accident in a remote place, able to do that and it changed my perception of time, and many other facets of life for ever. I realized afterward, that time is the most trivial concern I can possibly have. I saw eternity.

Eternity? Now THAT is HEAVY!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, another example.

I was once sitting with two people watching a video tape, a piece of anime (i.e. Japanimation). One of the other people was a friend of mine who happened to be a highly experienced martial artist. I'm talking like 35 years, black belts (or instructor ratings in arts that didn't have belt systems) in six different arts. You know, that kinda guy. The other fellow was a beginning martial artist.

So I'm sitting there, just kind of kicking back watching the TV screen. The show was based on a manga (comic book) and was set up internally still like a book, i.e. periodically we'd have "chapter breaks" where the screen flashed an image between scenes that would say something like "Chapter 2: The Plot Thickens" or somesuch. So that happens, and the image in the background, behind the lettering, is a painting of Mount Fuji. But for just a split instant, before that image showed up, I saw another image, the exact same painting of Mount Fuji, but with Japanese lettering instead of English. I said, "What the hell was that?" My friend the experienced martial artist had seen it too; the newbie martial artist had no idea what we were talking about.

Even after I'd explained what I'd seen, and we ran the film back, then forward, and with me saying, "Right....there!" to him, he still couldn't see it. Finally my friend put the film on slomo; which is, or so he told me, 1/60th normal speed. Even on slomo the image was only up on-screen for a second, and still the newbie martial artist couldn't see it. Finally my friend managed to hit the pause button at just the right time to freeze the image on-screen, and then the newbie could see it. He looked at me with this expression of wonder on his face and said, "I can't believe you saw that." Because at that point he could see that the image actually had been up on the screen, that it was indeed exactly what I had said it was, and that I'd seen it clearly enough to recognize what it was, even though it was up there so briefly he couldn't see it at all.

What had happened, of course, was that when the anime was in the process of being dubbed from Japanese into English, and also having the "chapter cards" switched over, someone had done a sloppy cut and left one frame of the original chapter card still on the tape, right in front of the English version. My friend commented, "I estimate that image was up on-screen for 1/60th of a second."

Okay, all false modesty aside, I seriously doubt the reason I was able to see that image was because I'm this fantastic physical specimen who can just naturally pick up things that happen so fast most people can't see them. It's that years on end of training to see multiple, distinct sight pictures per second while shooting at warp speed have left me with an ability to "see fast" that is with me constantly. And it's not because I "flipped the switch" or deliberately put myself into a state of altered perception; I was just sitting there vegging in front of a TV; fast visual perception was the furthest thing from my mind. My friend the experienced martial artist, after years of training to recognize and react to an opponent's movements, was able to see the image, as well. The newbie martial artist, without those years of training? Not so much.

Ray, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that, after your years as a shortshop, and shooter, you also have this ability. You just don't realize it because, to you, the way you see seems "normal" and you've just never been in a situation that highlighted to you just how much faster you're able to visually register and process imagery than the normal run of humanity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Duane, I agree with you, and I think we are getting at the same thing. I'm pretty sure that like any other physical task, the ability to "see" varies from person to person. However, it is quite likely that your friend actually "saw" the frame you were talking about, but it just didn't register. It's also possible that all the training in the world would never allow him to "see" (read "register") what you saw.

Hell's bells, if training was the whole answer I'd have spent my salad days playing shortstop for the Yankees. There has to be an element of natural ability in this whole thing. And that, coupled with an abiding interest in what we like doing, gives us the chance to develop what talent we have.

But getting back to the question of time slowing down, I'd have to say that such a perception does happen, and it is more then just a matter of concentration. I'm thinking that we can somehow "turn this on" occasionally in situations that we've been in before. Just not all the time. The key is to find a way to get into this mode at will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I'm not going to say that's impossible. (See earlier "people have different minds" comment.) I just know that for me that's not what happens, the switch is stuck pretty much constantly Open.

Yeah, natural ability does play into it. As an example - though we'll switch over to discussing reflex speed for a moment, rather than visual perception - I truly, deeply believe that anyone who has a level of reflex speed and hand-eye coordination that could be classed as "normal" can do a sub-second draw and fire. You don't need super-fast reflexes to do that; it's just not that tough a nut to crack, and far more a matter of efficient technique than innate physical speed.

Having said that, I am also firmly convinced there are X number of people in the world who would NEVER be able to do a sub-second draw. I don't care how long and hard they practice, how essentially clean their technique becomes vis-a-vis cutting out extraneous motion - the bottom line is, their reflexes aren't fast enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Given comparable eyesight, two people will see the same thing, but one may interpret what he sees much faster.
Ummm...I guess I am on a different sheet of music. Depending on where a person directs their attention, they may not see something that is right in front of them. They may not even be aware of what is in front of them let alone be able to interpret what they are missing.
I really don't have a perception of time when I shoot.
It took me a long, long time to get to that point. I think this should be the destination. Edited by Ron Ankeny
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You've got a couple of different dynamics going on here.

One is this idea that some people see faster. I think, to some extent, there is truth there. But largely I think for me it's a case of interpreting the data. I've commented 100 times about the fact that when I used to practice (and I just don't practice anymore - or I'd still do this today) I used to shoot no more than two shots on a target. Ever. The reason why is so I could understand the direct correlation between what I was seeing and what was indeed happening. That opened up my eyes!

The example I've used many times is from when I shot 9x25 and when I first started seeing what the dot was "trending" to do milli-seconds before the shot. I say trending - I don't know the right word. The dot was never perfectly still. It was always moving in some way. At some point I taught myself to see that, to watch it, to account for it and understand it. It took my level of seeing up ten notches! But not because I saw better, only because I had been opened up to what could be seen!

Do you remember the cartoon Aladdin? There's a scene in the movie when he's leaving a balcony and the chick is up on the balcony and as he's leaving a voice says "take off your clothes". I've heard it. I've heard it many times now. But the first few times I saw the movie I had no clue it was there. It wasn't until a friend pointed it out that I heard it. And now if I see that scene I can't NOT hear it. Senses are what senses are, sometimes we have to be taught what we can see, hear, feel before we can indeed see, feel, or hear it. Which has always caused me to wonder - what if there is another plateau out there of shooting excellence beyond what we know today?

But the section of this thread that I like most is Duane's post on the process for a beginning shooter versus the advanced shooter with regards to the popper, static, dropper scenario. There's a lot to what happens there - I don't want to say there isn't. And at times I feel like the difference is one of the shooters makes 3 left turns and the other simply makes one right turn. Both are pointed in the same direction going to the same place. One is just much more efficient. And, the other might actually get there too if they just learn to turn right.

But what I like more about that section is the philisophical difference. And that may be what a lot of this boils down to. Fundamentally the person that shoots multiples on the popper, hits the static(s) and then nails the drop spreader - what that person has above the other is not as much skill, or knowledge, or experience. Probably yes to all, but the most important thing that shooter has is vision. That's what I love. When a person has the vision to see what can be, not just what is, then they open the door to the next level.

I remember when the idea of nailing a popper several times to make it go down faster first came out. And we all started playing it. It's amazing, the folks without the vision were trying to figure out how to survive the scenario. Meanwhile the folks with vision were defining how to maximize the scenario. Totally different approach. And results BTW.

Jack

P.S. I believe that barring any true physical limitation that nearly anyone can get a sub-one second draw. We've all done it, it ain't that difficult. It's a belief thing. I know I can never teach anyone to do a sub-one second draw if they don't believe they can. And I believe I can teach anyone to do one if they believe they can and just don't know how.

Edited by j1b
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Humans are interesting in that we create our own limitations. An eagle doesn't think "wow, that rabbit is too fast". An elk doesn't think, "Oh no, I'm late for evening feeding time." As far as I can see, only the human mind has any strictly regimented ideas about time. It's a sort of structure that people have created to try and relate to the world around them, but the rest of creation doesn't run on our idea of time. The sun rises, the sun sets. That's pretty much it.

Does time slow down? No, when we are absorbed in an activity we can enter a "mindless" state. Time only lives in the mind. When the mind isn't running the show, we are not conscious of time. When the person reverts back to being under control of his or her mind, the first thing the mind does is to try an reconcile the chain of events that tool place in it's absence. This leads to the perception that time somehow changed.

Time is simply a belief system, much like a religion, that many people share. My boss expects me to be at work tomorrow morning at 5:30, so in order to keep my paycheck coming, I'm probably going to play along. :wacko:

Edited by Sam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sam, when you're at work and planning to hit the range as soon as you get off, I'd be willing to bet time does indeed slow down. :rolleyes: At least your perception of it does.

And its the perception that counts. Only humans have a feeling of passing time really, because they are the only animals that do not live completely in the present, and can anticipate things enjoyable and not so enjoyable.

They may not even be aware of what is in front of them let alone be able to interpret what they are missing.
Ankeny

Yep. And even if you do see it, you have to be aware of it's importance before it registers. If you're only interested in "B," and you don't connect "A" to "B" the "A" will have no meaning for you.

Interesting discussion guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know that when I think it was slow because I screwed up, it generally was, but many times when I think it seems slow, but everything went just exactly according to plan, it usually was far faster than it seemed.

It seems that the 'zone' however it is achieved is what we are all after, some of us can obviously go into great medical detail, others call it zen. The Zone works for me. Practice goes a long way towards achieving this zone. Thinking your way through the details of the upcoming event and visualizing yourself actually doing it is a good thing and seems to hel. Definitely paying attention to the little pointy thing at the front of the gun, or that red glowing thingie in the glass helps. Taking the time to see it will cause you to take less time overall.

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've also experienced a complete opposite of this effect, where in preparing for something, like a match, where I'm gathering equipment, clothes, snacks, drinks etc. It seems like I've only spent 5 mins getting ready, but 45 mins has gone by while I'm pottering around.

I wonder if anticipation* has something to do with it. For instance, when I'm shooting 4 steel plates, I know where they are, the order in which I'll take them and what I'm expecting (sight picture) in order to make that happen. When I'm getting ready, it's not planned to the same amount of detail. I know I have to do a bunch of things, but the order and precise detail is not planned or anticipated.

So perhaps in the case of the steel plates, since I've already mentally rehearsed the event, my conscious mind can step aside and let the subconscious deliver.

How many times have you driven to work and before you know it, you're exiting the car? Time flew, because you've driven there so many times that even a hugely complex series of tasks like driving happens in your subconscious.

* Duane, I practiced martial arts for a number years and was told, that there are 3 levels, or stages of skill. The first is where you see the attack, block, then counter. The second is where you see the attack, block and counter at the same time. The third is where you see the attack and counter, striking your opponent before they've delivered their attack, so there's no need for you to block.

Also about reacting to the coffee cup, a recent incident comes to mind. My 2 year old when she was about 18 months was standing on the couch (which we always discourage), she ended up close to the arm and bounced/leapt over the arm of the couch. I caught her by her ankle, preventing a possible nasty injury. Immediately afterwards I remember seeing her jump, her legs in the air and seeing her trajectory, knowing that she was going to land on the wooden floor. Without thinking, I reached out and grabbed her ankle - I can recall it in vivid detail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I believe I can teach anyone to do one if they believe they can and just don't know how.

Jack,

There's no doubt in my mind you could teach the vast majority of people to do a sub-second draw. But not everyone. Different people have different physical capabilities and potentialities, and some folks are just at the extreme low end of the scale when it comes to reflex speed. Which goes back to your observation, "...barring any true physical limitation." But if the person has SERIOUSLY sub-normal relfexes, all the belief in the world isn't going to overcome that fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me, my sense of passing time changes with my perceptual state.

No matter what I'm doing, if I'm in a hurry or rushing, the sense of time passing is quite noticeable.

If I'm totally and calmly aware of whatever is happening, there is no sense of time whatsover.

Also to me, "time" is 100% subjective. You ever notice that whatever you notice has already happened?

be

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I am calm (unstressed) while shooting time does feel to be proceeding slower. It seems like I am somewhat "watching" myself shooting the stage. Everything goes more smoothly, and even problems that come up are easier to deal with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No matter what I'm doing, if I'm in a hurry or rushing, the sense of time passing is quite noticeable.

I also become clumsy when rushing. Focused on time and not on task.

You ever notice that whatever you notice has already happened?

be

Brian, that thought is just beautiful! Razor's edge! :cheers:

We find hours within seconds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Focused on time and not on task.

Quite. Almost certainly the best and most usually forgotten insight on this thread.

You ever notice that whatever you notice has already happened?

Obvious, but true. However, what has already happened determines what will happen next-- at least that's what modern science is predicated on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Sam. :cheers:

We find hours within seconds.

Truly. In the instant presence of total attention, not even a second - much less minutes, hours, years, or lifetimes - remains.

Focused on time and not the task.

Nice - and right to it.

All my life, no matter what I'm doing, I have a natural tendency to rush. That natural tendency is one of biggest enemies.

Nowadays, all my typing mistakes come from being in a hurry. When I don't look at the screen or think about my hands, but just say the words in my mind at a speed I somehow naturally know that I can type them at, the sentences roll out quickly and effortlessly.

In shooting, after quite a bit of training, if I just shot a stage at a natural speed that I knew I was hitting each target at - I could not have shot any better at that moment.

I've never received any sort of lasting sense of peace or freedom from an explanation.

;)

be

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel that same tendency to rush as well, Brian. Time belongs to the mind and the mind is held, by chains, to time. So at any moment, if I am feeling rushed, it's my mind playing Larry the Cable Guy with me.

I have come to believe that the mind is obsessed with the concept of time because it senses it's own mortality. It's hard to have fun when you have one eye on the hourglass waiting for the reaper to call your name. When I was younger there was this kid in our hood named Alvin. His Mom used to call out around supper time, ALLL-VVVAAANNNN! He'd hear that voice come echoing down the street and immediately, his shoulders would slump, his head would drop, and he would start that long trudge toward home. That was it for his fun that day. The reaper had ended it. :ph34r:

Our spirit does not know time. It is a totally foreign concept. The body has aches and pains. The mind has time. But, the spirit has no worries at all. When I had that accident so many years ago, I heard the reaper call my name and my shoulders slumped, head dropped, and I started to head for home. My body had taken all it could take that night. My mind shut down as well. But, the real me was still there, calmly accepting everything as part of the journey. I wasn't trying to be calm. I was just calm because there was nothing left to get excited about.

Everyone will grasp this truth sooner or later. I know my posts on this topic seem strange right now. All I can do to alleviate that is to not talk about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice post Sam - thank you.

The natural tendency to always rush feels like it might come along with another natural tendency - I'm an efficiency freak by nature. Especially with repetitive tasks. I was talking with BigJoni about this topic tonight... Learning to do any repetive task well eventually comes down to learning where to put your attention, at each moment. Whether you know it or not, that's what you are doing.

Attention and thought are mutually exclusive. For human beings, attention is a mysterious quality. We can consciously manipulate it. Say I'm eating dinner. If I'm thinking about something I'm not tasting the food. If I'm totally tasking the food I'm not thinking.

For each act you do, you have to experiment to find where is the best place to put your attention, if you want to do the same thing over and over as best as you can do it. And then as your skills improve, where you place your attention might change too. For example, as a beginner, a good way to learn what proper trigger control feels like is to place all your attention right in the pad of your trigger finger. But some years later, the best way to allow good trigger control to manifest is to look right at your front sight. Or in other words - project all of your attention right into your front sight. And the gun will shoot itself.

And often where you should put your attention might not be where you think it should be. If I'm doing something that requires and extra degree of balance, it's best for me if I put my attention somewhere outside of my body. Then my body will inherently stay in balance.

be

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...