redwoods Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I just got home from work and am finally done venting to my roommate. I am a firearms instructor for a PD and was told I need to back off on the Safety. My range master thinks I need to stop being so picky about safety. We are working with two other agencies on a county wide firearms program and someone got hurt because I told him to not point the gun at his foot when reloading. My rangemaster said he doesn't want to loose me because of my knowledge and passion for shooting. He told me that I brought up the program from being very poor to being very organinzed and safety oriented but I am too strick on the safety. He wants me to tone it down on the safety. thanks for reading and remember that the 4 univeral rules of firearms safety are rules and not just guidelines. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 He might not think that if it had been his foot....work around him if you can...stick to your guns, (no pun intended) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My range master thinks I need to stop being so picky about safety. Randy, hang in there, you are doing the right thing. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Show them this at the next training... Youtube - finger on trigger Keep at it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Randy...Some times all you can do is shake your head.... Being safe takes no longer than being unsafe. It's sad that someone will let the carping of the unschooled affect what is Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwana Six-Gun Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 There is NO substitute for safety!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 WTF!?!? I'm sure most law enforcement agencies hate being characterized as trigger happy, unsafe, idiots who think the rules don't apply to them, but if the shoe fits.... Randy, hang in there man. Right isn't often easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Without being confrontational, ask for that in writing. It is definately a CYA situation. Something happens and he will blame you. Mark K. Edited February 17, 2009 by Mark K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 but I am too strick on the safety. There is no such thing as TO STRICT ON SAFETY... if they want you to "back down on safety" definitely GET THAT IN WRITING !!! The first time someone shoots their pinky toe off (remember Harlem Nights? ), lawsuits will fly. Guess who gets listed in the lawsuit: 1. The city 2. The department 3. The range master 4. The instructor CYA If it was me, I'd tell him to shove it or fire me. We instructors are training people in a potentially hazardous thing. Safety is paramount. Tell him if your going to back down on safety, your gonna back down on speeders to... "Awww heck... he was ONLY going 25 over... he's not really hurting anyone." Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 You are doing the right thing. *Everyone* who handles a firearm needs to do it safely. As others have suggested, I would write a memo to yourself (or an email) detailing what happened, print it out and keep it in a safe place. You might also want to notify the police chief and/or the city council so that they can be properly informed of what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 There is no such thing as to much safety, just like there is no such thing as a little bit of pointing gun at head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Randy, ask him if your style is considered "confrontational", and if that is what is turning people off......I went through that as well....There may be a way to go about it to get the info across and not be considered too harsh........ We can massage egos and do our job the right way too, it may just be a little tweak here and there.... Good luck, DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I know how to be a big PRO*k. But effective when someone wants you to do something you know to be wrong. Ask him to put it in writing, Or take out a small pocket size note pad and ask him to repeat what he was asking you so that you can get it exact in you daily note pad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Without being confrontational, ask for that in writing. It is definately a CYA situation. Something happens and he will blame you. +1 Safety cannot and should not EVER be compromised. Get it in writing and keep doing what you are doing. I doubt very much that any PD will fire you for being safety conscious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Don't back down unless it is your method of teaching the safety that is the problem. Safety, first, last, & always. Situation happened here in our town a few years ago where someone didn't harp on safety enough. Swat team is watching a house, one of the swat snipers is "watching" part of the entry team through his rifle scope & something startles him & he fires the gun. Puts one right through the head of the guy(his teammate) that he was watching. Ok, it is a horrible situation & it gets worse before it gets better. All hell breaks loose because swat thinks guy in house is shooting so they all start shooting. Tear the house to bits but somehow, the idiot inside lives through it. How many safety rules were broken here? Too many. I have no idea how it all played out in court & so forth but I am sure the guy that was the safety instructor was brought into the mess. Worse than that, one of the good guys is dead & the guy that did it is ruined for life. Evidently someone didn't stress the 4 rules quite enough or someone got a free "pass" that may not should have had it. Safety, safety, safety. You have an obligation to teach it & teach it right. Don't back down! Let this lesson that happened to others be a reminder to you what can happen if you back down. You can probably do some research & find articles about this incident that you might even be able to use in your safety classes. It would be a shame if the entire horrible situation wasn't used to help others learn safety without the terrible consequences. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I just got home from work and am finally done venting to my roommate. I am a firearms instructor for a PD and was told I need to back off on the Safety. My range master thinks I need to stop being so picky about safety. We are working with two other agencies on a county wide firearms program and someone got hurt because I told him to not point the gun at his foot when reloading. My rangemaster said he doesn't want to loose me because of my knowledge and passion for shooting. He told me that I brought up the program from being very poor to being very organinzed and safety oriented but I am too strick on the safety. He wants me to tone it down on the safety. thanks for reading and remember that the 4 univeral rules of firearms safety are rules and not just guidelines. Randy Randy, Perhaps its not so much the safety aspect but could it be the WAY in which you communicated with the offending parties? Maybe thats what the R.M. meant by "backing down". We're in the new millenium and it seems like theres lots of sensitive toesies out there that get riled up easily when stepped on. If its not your "style" then maybe you need to communicate to the R.M. your concerns in a NON-COnfrontational way (he IS the boss) and ask him which safety rule you should ignore or "let go". If its really getting bad then you might need to ask for re-assignment to get out of a potential lawsuit or worse. We have guys from an associated agency that shoot on our range and the last time I was out there to see about getting some of our unit quals done they had targets stapled to the frame below the ones they were shooting at. I noticed this and after discussing range time with their instructor asked him what the deal was with the stapled targets. He says to me (Now mind you they have JUST left the 7 yard line) "Thats so they can see when they're hitting the wood." EVERY target had multiple shots into these stapled targets and they were just moving back to the 15 yard line. He then asks me if I'd like to "stick around". "No thanks...we'll come back later when you're done." I'm told by our range staff that their instructor is the best shooter of the bunch and he BARELY shot a minimal qualifying score on our standard qualifying course. I could be on my deathbed and shoot better than that. He was selected to be the instructor for this agency because he was their best shot. Hoo boy. Their weapons handling ranks up there with the worst examples anyone here has of poor LEO weapons handling. Just another reason I did not want to stick around ...... my own personal safety. Maybe you need to consider your own safety if this boss won't enforce the rules and move on. Good luck with it, JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 "Safety cannot and should not EVER be compromised." Gah, I can't believe this. You'd think ESPECIALLY in a law enforcement setting that safety would be automatic and unspoken and a FUNDAMENTAL necessity. Gah, I can't believe this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Work a PPC or the new NRA police match. We as the RO's were told to watch our mouths as the police know what they were doing. Scary stuff. Hang in there and do not compromise safety, yours or theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I just got home from work and am finally done venting to my roommate. I am a firearms instructor for a PD and was told I need to back off on the Safety. My range master thinks I need to stop being so picky about safety. We are working with two other agencies on a county wide firearms program and someone got hurt because I told him to not point the gun at his foot when reloading. My rangemaster said he doesn't want to loose me because of my knowledge and passion for shooting. He told me that I brought up the program from being very poor to being very organinzed and safety oriented but I am too strick on the safety. He wants me to tone it down on the safety. thanks for reading and remember that the 4 univeral rules of firearms safety are rules and not just guidelines. Randy Randy, Wow, that simply sucks. It doesn't sound like it's your style if he says you're being "so picky" etc, but I guess it's possible. Personally, I'm fine with a range being run by a very direct person who is in command of the range and who will not accept anything less than doing things the right way. If people in LE are so sensitive that they can't handle a safety correction at the range they need to find another line of work. One thing to consider is that there are a lot of folks who get stressed for every firearms qual day because they struggle every time. Those folks can be downright hostile after a while and anything you say is going to piss them off even if it's for their own good. I think most folks would be surprised at how strict our safety rules are at the range and if you'd like, feel free to PM me and I'll give you a few things you can use to back you up that you're not being too picky. If you can show you're not trying to be a range Nazi maybe that'll get the RM off you back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Talk to your union rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Sometimes (hopefully it's rare) you have to beat somebody over the head with a 2x4 about gun safety. Usually, you can be friendly, but firm and non-compromising. It sounds like one of the basic rules of gun safety was violated here (guy pointing at foot while reloading): RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html Surely, you supervisor doesn't want you to back off on those. This would be a good opportunity to discuss that. Further dialog might show that he/she does want you to enforce those safety rules, but perhaps you all can get together and explore ways to communicate such with the shooters in a friendly, but firm, manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Randy, take it from a LE instructer of 20+ years. The day YOU back of the SAFETY issues and something goes wrong on the range or worse yet in the line of duty on the street, and it comes back at you, you will be in a world of hurt! People will turn their back on you and you may face charges your self. Be a "B---H" on the firearm safety issues at all times- because if you back off its your "A-S" NOT the person/persons that asked you to drop it down a notch. And remember- the SOP's of the department as well as state and federal laws! Best of luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Video is an excellent teaching tool. In addition to the first one provided in this thread you can also use about the ONLY PROFESSIONAL to drive your point.Stand your ground, you're doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I had a student that had a hard time, remembering to check his M16 when he grounded, clear and safe, he got up from the prone position with the bolt forward, and I asked him "did you check the chamber,..........YES was the reply, So you would have no problem standing in front of the muzzle while I pulled the trigger,...........No problem, Sir. I picked up the M16, he went to stand in front of it and I stopped him, and asked again, are you sure!!!!! Yes sir,........I then proceeded to produce the loudest noise the student had ever heard. I never had a problem with that student again, there are always creative ways to make your point without being an A$$. Sometimes it can even be FUN. Stick to your agenda, SAFETY is PARAMOUNT Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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