kimel Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Local gunsmith has a lot of blown up guns hanging on his wall. Folks bring them in thinking they can be fixed and when they find out they can't be fixed they let him have them for the wall. My favorite is the Ruger Super Blackhawk where the cylinder is split entirely in half, the top strap is broken loose at the front and peeled back and the barrel is pointing down about 30 degrees from normal. Story is the guy was loading some Bullseye in .45 and forgot to change powders when he changed calibers. Said the first one felt a bit stout but fired another round. That one was stout too. Third round is what broke everything loose. Moral of the story is that reloading is inherently dangerous to some extent. But then so is crossing the street. Like stepping out into traffic without looking both ways; loading without looking into each and every case can be trouble. If someone comes in when I am reloading I stop reloading to talk with them. I don't try and hold a conversation and reload because it isn't worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I am on the fence right now between the 550b and the XL650. I do not care about how fast I can make the ammo, I have more time than money. What I am paranoid about is a double charge/squib, and I like the powder check of the 650. I don't know about you, but I like my fingers, all ten of them. So lets say a double charge did make it thru and 8.8 grains of titegroup made it into the finished product. Is that a sure thing to blow? I am really leaning towards the 650 for peace of mind, but the cost difference is substantial. What do you think? In order to minimize the possibility of a double charge I use the lower density/fluffier powders such as Clays, American Select, or Trail Boss for revolver loads with lead bullets. I use a Dillon 550 and examine the powder fill visually before proceeding to the next station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 You can blow up a gun with any powder and bullet combo out there. If things are not done correctly this is the end result. Ummmm..... you obviously don't load for Open guns using slow powders.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV man Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I need a case extension like DQ uses on milkshakes. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDPMatt Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I've seen a doublecharge of Titegroup in a .40 1st hand as I was running the timer when it happened.... scary thing but nobody got hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I had a double charge out of an H&K USP Expert. First time I fired it. Now I NEVER EVER put a bullet onto of a piece of brass unless I see where the powder is. Go buy yourself a light that's bendable so you can point it down in the case. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillGarlandJr Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Unfortunately I have a bit of experience having to do with this subject. I double charged a .45 ACP round with Titegroup about 5 years ago. It was shot out of my Kimber 1911. The load it should have been was 4.5 grns of Titegroup under a 200gr Precision Bullet Semi Wadcutter. The double charged round was shot at a local club match. Things were running along fine when all of a sudden the bang was a bit bigger, and the felt recoil noticably more stout. I stopped immediately, checked the gun, checked myself, and finding nothing wrong with either finished the stage. After I was done with the stage I went to a safe area and checked the pistol more thoroughly and found nothing wrong with it. Now, knowing Titegroup like I do, I have to admit I was surprised to find the pistol was not damaged. I have a theory about this: .45 ACP is such a low pressure round to begin with (especially when loading lead bullets) that the pressure generated by the double charge was not enough to damage the gun thanks to a quality product and modern metalurgy. Please don't confuse this idea as me saying its a-ok to go ahead and double charge .45 ACP loads with Titegroup powder. Thats not what I'm saying at all. I do think .45 is a bit more forgiving because of the relatively low pressures. I've also used Titegroup for 9mm and .40 and I am certain that had a double charge occurred with either of those calibers it would have resulted in a different outcome as far as the condition of my gun and potentially myself goes. Ultimately, I think I was fortunate to have this sort of mishap with a .45 and not one of the other calibers I shoot because I was able to learn an important lesson about reloading without it having to cost me my health or a gun. Since then I have been a bit more deliberate in my ammo loading, and have loaded about 100,000 rounds without any more problems. I visually check each charged case as it comes into the bullet seating station on my 650. So I guess the moral of this story is....be careful when loading ammo. It only takes one bad round to ruin a gun or a shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharonAnne9x23 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Guy, at very different times, I have had 2 .45acp with double charges of WW231. The base load was 5.7g under a 200gr hard cast SWC. I disagree. You will not 'take your gun apart'. The first time I did not know what happened. Suddenly I was standing with my hands about 1' apart, my 1911 was on the ground pointing uprange, slide closed. The bottom of the magazine, the spring and 7 rounds were on the ground. The RO opened my pistol and ejected a .45acp case with the case head blown out. Visual inspection showed no damage to the pistol and I continued to use that pistol another 5 years before selling it. The second time I was using a buddys pistol and his reloads. This time I did not drop the pistol. Again the mag bottom blew out with the spring and remaining cartridges. The slide could not be cycled by hand. The bushing was removed and a mallet used to hammer the slide forward until the slide lock could be removed. Upon inspection the slide was bowed out on each side adjacent to the chamber. Again the case was found with the web blown out. The frame and barrel were not damaged. So, while one pistol was damaged, it most certainly was not take apart . This is not to say that it cannot happen, but to make a blanket statement that a double charge of 231 will 'take your gun apart' with a 1911 is at the very least an exaggeration. QUOTE (bkeeler @ Jan 31 2009, 08:12 PM) * You can blow up a gun with any powder and bullet combo out there. If things are not done correctly this is the end result. Oh really? I think the powder companies know a bit more about loading than you do. If they did not there would be no reloading industry. You cannot blow up a gun with ANY powder and bullet combo. A load often used in bullseye shooting in the 80s was 2.7gr of Bullseye with a 200gr hard cast SWC. So a double charge would be 5.4gr. The Alliant powder recommended maximum load is 7.5gr with a 200gr LSWC. Perhaps blanket statements should not be made? Edited February 12, 2009 by SharonAnne9x23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisa006 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I have been next to two shooters who have fired a double charge of Titegroup. The Glock shooter, a new reloader blew his gun apart. The only usable part were the sights. The second guy a highly experienced man did it at the Nationals last year, and after checking it all out was able to finish the match. This was a custom sti/sv gun. Both loaded on a 550 PAY ATTENTION ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Guy, at very different times, I have had 2 .45acp with double charges of WW231. The base load was 5.7g under a 200gr hard cast SWC. I disagree. You will not 'take your gun apart'.The first time I did not know what happened. Suddenly I was standing with my hands about 1' apart, my 1911 was on the ground pointing uprange, slide closed. The bottom of the magazine, the spring and 7 rounds were on the ground. The RO opened my pistol and ejected a .45acp case with the case head blown out. Visual inspection showed no damage to the pistol and I continued to use that pistol another 5 years before selling it. How do you know it was a double charge of powder? Could have been a case failure or bullet set back. The second time I was using a buddys pistol and his reloads. This time I did not drop the pistol. Again the mag bottom blew out with the spring and remaining cartridges. The slide could not be cycled by hand. The bushing was removed and a mallet used to hammer the slide forward until the slide lock could be removed. Upon inspection the slide was bowed out on each side adjacent to the chamber. Again the case was found with the web blown out. The frame and barrel were not damaged. This one could have been but how do you know for sure it was a double charge? So, while one pistol was damaged, it most certainly was not take apart . This is not to say that it cannot happen, but to make a blanket statement that a double charge of 231 will 'take your gun apart' with a 1911 is at the very least an exaggeration. QUOTE (bkeeler @ Jan 31 2009, 08:12 PM) * You can blow up a gun with any powder and bullet combo out there. If things are not done correctly this is the end result. Oh really? I think the powder companies know a bit more about loading than you do. If they did not there would be no reloading industry. You cannot blow up a gun with ANY powder and bullet combo. If things are not done correctly I believe you can. Let me use your gun and I will show you. A load often used in bullseye shooting in the 80s was 2.7gr of Bullseye with a 200gr hard cast SWC. So a double charge would be 5.4gr. The Alliant powder recommended maximum load is 7.5gr with a 200gr LSWC. Perhaps blanket statements should not be made? I too have had a case blow in a 45 acp but it was not caused by a double charge it was caused by bullet set back. Double charge with clays powder in 40 S&W at a short OAL and see what happens. Edit to add: When a case fails usually at the web everyone always says "double charge". I would say most (not all) of the time it isn't in my opinion. It could be due to case failure or bullet set back. I am adding a pic to show what happened to me. Case failure is not going to blow up the gun I don't think but it did not blow mine up. But I think a double charge could more so than a case failure. I think I was using Clays powder at the time. This happened at a local IDPA match about 9-10 years ago nothing happened to the gun. This was not a double charge. What I discovered was my resizing die was not resizing the brass correctly and was getting bullet set back. A double charge will give you a bigger explosion (more force). I have seen a glock blow up using factory ammo. Was it a double charge probably due to the force it takes to rip the barrel apart. BK Edited February 13, 2009 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I won't dispute the possibility, but a blown case head can be attributed to bad brass, unsupported case head, bullet setback, or overcharge (possibly less than a full double charge). The destroyed gun I saw did not blow out the case head. It disintegrated the top half of the barrel - no part of the barrel hood was found. The bottom half of the case was still in the remains of the chamber. The slide was bulged to both sides. I did not see the actual round being fired, but saw the gun at the gunsmith's the next day as they were trying to figure out how to get it apart to see if the frame could be salvaged. The shooter claimed he was loading 5.7gr of 231 with a 200gr LSWC. Chances were a double charge as most likely, though severe bullet setback cannot totally be ruled out. Glad your experience was not so dramatic - but I do think the possibility of bullet setback or overcharge (less than a double) a bit more likely. Mysteries of the universe, I suppose. Guy Guy, at very different times, I have had 2 .45acp with double charges of WW231. The base load was 5.7g under a 200gr hard cast SWC. I disagree. You will not 'take your gun apart'.The first time I did not know what happened. Suddenly I was standing with my hands about 1' apart, my 1911 was on the ground pointing uprange, slide closed. The bottom of the magazine, the spring and 7 rounds were on the ground. The RO opened my pistol and ejected a .45acp case with the case head blown out. Visual inspection showed no damage to the pistol and I continued to use that pistol another 5 years before selling it. The second time I was using a buddys pistol and his reloads. This time I did not drop the pistol. Again the mag bottom blew out with the spring and remaining cartridges. The slide could not be cycled by hand. The bushing was removed and a mallet used to hammer the slide forward until the slide lock could be removed. Upon inspection the slide was bowed out on each side adjacent to the chamber. Again the case was found with the web blown out. The frame and barrel were not damaged. So, while one pistol was damaged, it most certainly was not take apart . This is not to say that it cannot happen, but to make a blanket statement that a double charge of 231 will 'take your gun apart' with a 1911 is at the very least an exaggeration. QUOTE (bkeeler @ Jan 31 2009, 08:12 PM) * You can blow up a gun with any powder and bullet combo out there. If things are not done correctly this is the end result. Oh really? I think the powder companies know a bit more about loading than you do. If they did not there would be no reloading industry. You cannot blow up a gun with ANY powder and bullet combo. A load often used in bullseye shooting in the 80s was 2.7gr of Bullseye with a 200gr hard cast SWC. So a double charge would be 5.4gr. The Alliant powder recommended maximum load is 7.5gr with a 200gr LSWC. Perhaps blanket statements should not be made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharonAnne9x23 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 as I said, I think that blanket statements of what IS or WILL BE should be avoided. Since none of us can predict the future I think we should be taking care to reload carefully and not predict disasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharonAnne9x23 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) I accidentally double submitted. Then I had an idea of what to add and promptly forgot it. Ever since my 5 month hospitalization I have memory problems. Edited February 13, 2009 by SharonAnne9x23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I double charged a .45 with Bullseye once. Regular load was 5.2 grains under a 200 gr. cast swc. So, 10.4 grains of Bullseye feels like a hot loaded .44 magnum out a Colt Gold Cup. No damage to the gun, it did blow out the primer and split the side of the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franksremote Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Can't say enough about paying attention, the following would've been worse than a double IMO. A friend needed to load ammo for a gun he's borrowing from me as well as learning to reload. On my dedicated .40 cal 1050, I setup the alternate measure, adjust the seating die and get him loading moly bullets. I'm blabbing away about the reloading process, how to use the primer filler, completely stroking the press, paying attention, etc. etc. While demo'ing the loading process, I check the drop and it's low at 3.2, reset it to 4.5, add some TG to the measure to fill it up and get him underway loading. Luckily he's being overly cautious as all beginners tend to be and after stroking the press he checks a couple of cases, and finds erractic weights (4.7 - 6.9 grains), even though the powder check went off, not possible says I for it to be that erratic and recalibrate the scale just to be sure. Set and test the drop for 4.5 grains and two cases weigh that, he checks one 5 or so down the line and finds 6.5 and 4.8 again. I stop him completely to check everything over to make sure nothing's wrong with the scale, measure or press. Lucky we did... Originally I thought I just hadn't reset the measure after loading for a GSSF match, it finally dawns on me that I've got two different powders in the measure (Clays ang TG) I was embarassed to say the least as I'm supposed to be mentorring him and properly getting him started reloading, instead I'm screwing it up worse than a newbie with no experience at all We toss the loaded rounds into the recycle bin to be pulled for components later and I change him to my "match" measure with Vhit powder and switch to JHP bullets. All goes well the rest of the night as I fertilize the lawn with the TG/Clays mixture. I'm an experienced reloader and reloading instructor at the shop, but still I learned a BIG lesson (especially about complacancy) that night and still thank him for being overly cautious his first time catching what could've been a truly catastrophic blowout when he'd have touched one off out of my backup Limited gun. It could've/would've really hurt him. I think he learned something that will stay with him forever too... Yes, it didn't look right in the case, the powder check sounded off and the weight was wrong on the scale. All the signs were there, I was just having a serious brain fart and am glad he/we caught the mixup before it was too late. Still would've been better to pay more attention BEFORE it happened, but paying attention while loading revealed the mistake before it was too late (couldn't have setup that kinda lesson). I still use the powder check and look into each case, but now I double check the powder measure and which powder before getting started in the hopes that future brain farts can be avoided... Embarassing but thought I'd share. Please forgive the thread drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Most every double charge I have seen or heard about is on a 550 by experienced reloaders....FWIW..... I dont think it is a powder thang.....DougC +1 I prefer auto-indexing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beans Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Concerning my 650. I have installed a set of track lighting on the ceiling and have position the lights so that while I am loading I can visually check each powder charge, without moving the case from the machine. It shines right into the case when it reaches station 3, which is dieless or you can put a powder check die in that area and it will buzz if the powder charge is too much or not enought. Edited February 13, 2009 by Beans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Manley Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Most every double charge I have seen or heard about is on a 550 by experienced reloaders....FWIW..... I dont think it is a powder thang.....DougC +1 I prefer auto-indexing. +2...and, a very bright light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHolsted Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) We had guy at my local club blow up a g G34 with a double charge of tightgroup last Saturday. By "blow up", I mean cracked frame and unserviceable slide and barrel. You mean this one. http://www.shooters101.com/images/GunPics/bad.JPG http://www.shooters101.com/images/GunPics/badtoo.JPG This was one of the scariest day I have had in a long time. I was the MD at the match this happened at. One of the competitors comes around the berm and tells me they need me up front. I told them I would be right there. He then tells me "we need you up front right now!". So as I am running to the front of the range a bunch of bad things are going through my head. I see them under the shed and you could just see the look on the guys face. I look at his hand swollen and sore but not bleeding...... I was so relieved he was OK. I hated it for the gun. Edited February 14, 2009 by Flexmoney resized huge pics...left links to originals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtrooper Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 This involves a long gun but the same conditions could produce the same results for a handgun. A local gunsmith had a .308 Remington bolt action rifle that had an extreme kaboom. It was owned by a farmer that kept it in the truck for coyotes etc. year round. He always took the rifle in at night and kept it loaded so it was always loaded when he left the house. He had done a detailed cleaning and forgot to load the rifle when he went out that day so he loaded it with rounds from the box that had been on the dash for months. It had ridden there in the hot sun for more than a year and the sun's rays had bleached the box nearly white. When he pulled the trigger on a coyote the kaboom happened. He brought it in the gunsmith asked if he was shooting reloads and he said no "factory ammo". He asked if he had any more of those rounds so he went out to the truck and brought the box inside. The gunsmith pulled one of the bullets and what was inside the case poured out looking like talcum powder. The heat and constant bouncing and shaking while riding on the dash had broken the powder down from it's original form. The same thing could happen with handgun rounds if left in extreme heat and vibration for extended periods of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I had a guy I was ARO'ing double charge Titegroup in an STI Limited gun.. It went off, splintered the grips a bit and he dropped the gun, during a course of fire.. Unfortunately in addition to the ruined gun, we had to DQ him for unsafe gun handling. Double ouchie! And yes, he was loading on a 550. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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