JESTER 421 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Stage Set-up Qty 2 Targets Positioned Side by Side at 7yards Shooter facing targets, Scoring Vickers On signal Engage T1-T2 with two rounds to the body in Tactical sequence then reengage T1-T2 with one head shot each. Now I shot the stage in this order: T1- 1 round to the body engaged T-2 with 2 rounds to the body, Reengaged T-1 with 1 rd to the head then the body and finished with a head shot to T-2 Now I was issued a procedural penalty for not engaging the targets in the proper order. In my minds eye this is tactically sound or would I be wrong and deserve the penalty. Edited January 26, 2009 by JESTER 421 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighVelocity Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The head is the body but the body's not the head. If you had shot T1 in the head twice instead of head, then body, you would've been OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The head is the body but the body's not the head. If you had shot T1 in the head twice instead of head, then body, you would've been OK. +1 Gary is right. Oh, and JESTER 421, just stop now. Stop using phrases like "tactically sound" to try to explain why you should not have gotten a procedural. The game isn't played that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 It is a GAME, it does not reflect real life encounters. Shoot it as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryptoprocta Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 To paraphrase the great Frank Glover: Rule Number 1: Shoot them near to far. Rule Number 2: Shoot them as you see them (slice the pie). Rule Number 3: Shoot them the way we tell you to shoot them. Rule Number 4: Rule Number 3 supercedes all other rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 To paraphrase the great Frank Glover:Rule Number 1: Shoot them near to far. Rule Number 2: Shoot them as you see them (slice the pie). Rule Number 3: Shoot them the way we tell you to shoot them. Rule Number 4: Rule Number 3 supersedes all other rules. This should get it's own page in the rule book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 It's always dealers choice....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESTER 421 Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 It's always dealers choice....... I prefer to call the game Memory, but with guns Thanks for all your help Texas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hmmm. Let's not confuse the IDPA rules with what the MD/Stage designer does. Tactical Sequence is defined as "A method of target engagement. For Tactical Sequence, all targets are engaged with one round each before being engaged again. "... which the shooter did. In this case it sounds like the COF additionally required all body shots completed BEFORE required head shots??? Besides- how does the the SO know that the shooter tried a head shot then did a body shot? What if the body shot and head shot were close? Or even reversed? How would the SO accurately know this? I would not give a procedural in this case but maybe I'm missing something. Only thing I can recall from the IDPA rule book on this "kind" of shooting is stage 1- strings 1-3 of classifier. And even there it really doesn't specify body shots BEFORE head shot. Not that anyone would want to do this... I don't think it would be a procedural. Maybe I'm clueless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4406pak Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Jester 421, Was there an advantage to the way you shot it vs. the way they described? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) The head is the body but the body's not the head. If you had shot T1 in the head twice instead of head, then body, you would've been OK. +1 Gary is right. Oh, and JESTER 421, just stop now. Stop using phrases like "tactically sound" to try to explain why you should not have gotten a procedural. The game isn't played that way. +1 to what Gary and Steve said... It could be worse you could have to shoot this: Edited January 26, 2009 by kaiserb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESTER 421 Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Jester 421, Was there an advantage to the way you shot it vs. the way they described? No,thus my point The head is the body but the body's not the head. If you had shot T1 in the head twice instead of head, then body, you would've been OK. I will remeber this for next time Edited January 26, 2009 by JESTER 421 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighVelocity Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Here's a clip of of me in 2007 shooting what sounds about like what you described, except there were 3 targets in tac sequence 2 to each body and followed up with one headshot each. It's really easy to get out of whack on this type of stage design. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlfW8sRpUPM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The head is the body but the body's not the head. If you had shot T1 in the head twice instead of head, then body, you would've been OK. +1 Gary is right. Oh, and JESTER 421, just stop now. Stop using phrases like "tactically sound" to try to explain why you should not have gotten a procedural. The game isn't played that way. +1 to what Gary and Steve said... It could be worse you could have to shoot this: Nice 3D and ugly hard cover. One too many non-threats to be an IDPA legal stage though - 1-3 ratio max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggieMM Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Don't forget the -5 PD for the required head shot that was missed. Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Don't forget the -5 PD for the required head shot that was missed. Ryan Each target ended up with two body hits and one head hit. He gets a procedural for shooting them out of order, but you still score the hits on the target. Points down would be double jeopardy. On a Mozambique drill, if the shooter inadvertently throws a body shot to the head then drops the head shot into the body, I'd still score the target as is. There are two body and one head. I'd score it as such. The rule book, I believe (maybe it was in the old rulebook, I'll need to look), speaks only to a procedural for three hits to the head on a Mozambique if that is perceived to be easier. Stage Set-upQty 2 Targets Positioned Side by Side at 7yards Shooter facing targets, Scoring Vickers On signal Engage T1-T2 with two rounds to the body in Tactical sequence then reengage T1-T2 with one head shot each. Now I shot the stage in this order: T1- 1 round to the body engaged T-2 with 2 rounds to the body, Reengaged T-1 with 1 rd to the head then the body and finished with a head shot to T-2 Now I was issued a procedural penalty for not engaging the targets in the proper order. I my minds eye this is tactically sound or would I be wrong and deserve the penalty. Edited January 26, 2009 by Steve J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggieMM Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 But, aren't you claiming the second shot to be a "body" shot? Then he never engaged the head...... Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) It doesn't matter. The target ended up with the required two body and one head hits. Some clubs have been known to assess an FTN for a dropped head shot on a Mozambique. That's wrong too. The target is scored as a whole. The only fair way to score it is to consider "best three hits one of which must be a head shot", then if a procedural is necessary for order give that. Edited January 26, 2009 by Steve J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggieMM Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Aren't shooting sports fun. This is were the "gray area" of the rule book makes this difficult to come to a consensus. But let me review: ------------------ 1) In order to have this debate on scoring, we have to assume that the scorekeeper saw the order of engagement, as the SO BETTER BE WATCHING THE GUN. If the scorekeeper did not see the messed up order, then the target would be scored as 2 body, 1 head, no PEs. 2) However, if the scorekeeper did see the order infraction, then some time penalty has to be assessed. Either the shooter gets a PE for failing to engage the array correctly, or the shooter should be penalized for a missed head shot. ---------------- Above, it is mentioned that a "head" shot is considered a body hit, so we seem to agree that a PE isn't justified, but then how can the "third" shot into the body (not head) be ignored? If the COF states that the third shot to that threat has to be a head shot, and a scorekeeper saw the order infraction, I would score a missed head on that target. Just my $0.02. However, the true lesson here is COF design, as the SO/Scorekeeper should not be put into a situation like this. Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I don't see a scoring gray area. The end result on the target is scored. Period. If there are holes in the head you can not give 5 points down for a missed head shot. If the COF required a specific order to the hits, then a procedural may be assessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I don't see a scoring gray area. The end result on the target is scored. Period. If there are holes in the head you can not give 5 points down for a missed head shot. If the COF required a specific order to the hits, then a procedural may be assessed. I guess I will go with this viewpoint..... It always starts with something small...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 off topic but an interesting veiwpoint none the less, why waste shots to the body on a Mozambique drill, if you're going to shoot them in the head anyway???? a buddy if mine made perfect sense to me when he said, "why would you do that" and the reply was well in case they have body armour on,???????????????????????? then why not just shoot them in the head "FIRST" and eliminate the possibility of them returning fire!! So I really dislike that particular drill. OH YEAH and POLLS TOO!!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootingirons45 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 It's IDPA. Do NOT think. Shoot it as told to, all will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I don't know why this continues to be a struggle. Was the hole supposed to be in the head? Is the head part of the body? Etc., etc. Put a strip of black tape across the neck, and score the head as a separate target. That way, you can specify a precise engagement sequence, and a wild shot at the body can't be scored a hit because it hit the head. Or, looked at another way, a shooter can't avoid the transition between the body and head, which is the whole point of the exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESTER 421 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) It's IDPA. Do NOT think. Shoot it as told to, all will be fine. You sure have a way with words Thanks for all your feed back Jamie Edited January 27, 2009 by JESTER 421 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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