Scott R Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Are they a legal target and if so how do you avoid scoring problems within USPSA rules? They are not a Popper (no calibration zone) so it would seem that they would fall under the scoring rules of plates. 4.3.1.6 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails to self-indicate, fall, or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. How do you avoid the potential for reshoots when a low hit with a light bullet does not knock it over? Is there something I am missing or is using them in a USPSA match as problematic as I fear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I'd classify a Larue Target as falling steel (i.e. like a plate) and as such, must fall in order to score. Frankly, they're better than a plate 'cause they won't get cocked sideways. If you hit or low or high, with a wimp load or light bullets...too bad. It falls or it doesn't. I've knocked them down with 55's but 69's are so much better. As for a calibration well...that's beyond my decision to make, but again, if treated like a falling steel plate, it falls or it doesn't. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 LaRues are great, but they are mechanical. Thus, you have to have them on a solid base, or set level on firm ground. Just like any popper, otherwise any changes in how they sit on their base can change what will or won't drop the plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Actually, Rich, you've got it backwards... In the case of plates, they must fall if hit (presumably by a full diameter hit). What Scott is asking is - if you hit one (fully diameter) low on the target face, and it fails to fall.... its REF... The LaRue can't be considered a popper, so... Actually, it strikes me that the LaRue target would probably do good to have its own target type in the 3-gun rules, along with some thoughts on how they should be setup to be compliant, etc... Then they could be specified to be "must be knocked down to score", rather than "must fall if hit"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 After reading the rifle rules a little more I found that the max plate size is 12 inches, so the Larue plates aren't legal anyway. I have now built and installed 12" circular plates on the Larue mechanism and I think they can be set light enough to fall with any hit. I will be testing them this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Actually Dave all the LaRue would need is a calibration zone, because it is possible to hit a popper with a full diameter hit and it not fall. that could easily be done, although as Scott has already stated it is not a legal IPSC target as it currently exists, which would answer the question why its only seen at the better outlaw matches. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Actually Dave all the LaRue would need is a calibration zone, because it is possible to hit a popper with a full diameter hit and it not fall. Is it adjustable? (I've not played with one, just glanced them over up close). Per the rules, though, its not a popper or US popper - and therefore (if it were a legal size) is a plate, so... Still would have to fall when struck under the current rules, even if it were of legal size... It really shouldn't be a problem to get it added, I wouldn't think? And declaring a calibration zone shouldn't be all that hard to do, either (say, a measurement from the top or the bottom or something...). There's an obvious benefit to using them, much like flashers and whatnot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 If the area 4 event can get the exceprtion to use popper tagets that do not fall for a Area shoot. it seams like a very small step to get a Larue aproved per match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 It is adjustable, but in a relatively crude manner. Although I guess all poppers are crudely adjustable. i do recall shooting at a hinged plate at a legal USPSA major match, and it didn't fall when struck with a full diameter hit, I protested and won but not on the grounds of the hit. So it seems that plates do not have to be free standing or fall to be legal targets for USPSA. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksh8me Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I've been to a couple of big match and stages were thrown out it was because the La Rues kept breaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Lessons learned from the USPSA Nationals: Adjust them and shoot them proir to the match. If I were setting them up for a match I would put a railroad tie in front of them for two reasons. First it would stop the sound from low hits and base hits. Second it would force you shoot them higher making them more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 And LaRue targets are legal since the BOD amended the MG rules just before our nationals to make it so. As Chris stated we had to learn some lessons from the first time we used them but we did learn. USPSA is very lucky that we had the outstanding support of LaRue and were able to offer these at this years national championship. Now if I could just get Santa to bring me one, all would be right with the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 it remains to be seen if the lesson has been "learned" there was definitely a lesson to be learned?? Time will tell..................hopefully these excellent targets will be used properly and allow for less judgement calls by RO's Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A well Earled machine Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I was thinking I would volunteer to bring a Remy 700 HB in .223 to the next MG nationals so that during set up we could test the steel. I would think that a 52 or 53 gn HPBT match round would be a good round to launch at them - no one could say the cal ammo was "hotter" than theirs [assuming they are running 55s]. What do ya think? Earl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I think LaRue targets are cool when they work and big pain in the ass when they do not. Speaking of lessons learned...I have been fearful when I see a stage with them in it because I normally use 55 gr'rs and always thankful to have completed a stage. For this reason, am cooking up loads using 69rs for the coming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Earl, it doesn't matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is on the minor PF floor(minimum), for USPSA matches, and maybe xm193 for the other matches, since there is no PF. I do think a bolt gun with calibrated ammo is the way to go, to verify the target is set properly. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Earl, it doesn't matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is on the minor PF floor(minimum), for USPSA matches, and maybe xm193 for the other matches, since there is no PF.I do think a bolt gun with calibrated ammo is the way to go, to verify the target is set properly. Trapr Any reason not to just use the 9mm that is used for every other steel target? Edited November 21, 2009 by Charles Bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I don't think I've ever seen a Larue target not work when hit reasonably close to center. Even with a 55 that is low power, all you have to do is hit it a little higher. If it has to fall with a hit anywhere with a minor load, maybe it ain't for uspsa. Seriously , you calibrate a popper by using the circle part, if it don't fall with a low hit its tough, oughta be the same for a Larue. Fact is, if you get a crappy hit on a flasher with mealy ammo and it doesn't "flash" you get a miss there too, so whats the big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigS. Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Earl, it doesn't matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is on the minor PF floor(minimum), for USPSA matches, and maybe xm193 for the other matches, since there is no PF.I do think a bolt gun with calibrated ammo is the way to go, to verify the target is set properly. Trapr Any reason not to just use the 9mm that is used for every other steel target? How can you duplicate the energy of a 55gr exactly, and at various distances out to 400yds with a 9mm ? seems to me it would make more sense to use the same bullet the target is intended for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Charles, we've already hashed out why 9mm shouldn't be used to calibrate rifle steel, so lets not bring it back up here. Suffice it to say, just because its how its done now doesn't mean it can't be done better. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Any reason not to just use the 9mm that is used for every other steel target? Why in the world would you want to use a 9mm to calibrate rifle targets that will be engaged with rifle rounds? Is this standard USPSA thinking regarding 3gun matches? Is it "well, thats the way we've always done it in the past?" or is it "well, according to rule 2.4.4.1.5.2.7 (kinda looks like a URL huh? ) subsection 5 clause b thats how we are supposed to calibrate steel"...? IMO, the way to calibrate is with minor ammo, like off the shelf 55gn) in the shortest, reasonable barreled rifle likely to be seen at a match. As in a 16", 1:9" twist, carbine gas system, A2 flash hider, ect rifle. It doesnt get more off the shelf than that. If you were using a .223 bolt gun, say a Rem700 24" then you would conceiveably be changing the variable of the potential of energy delivered on target due to the difference in velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) Ken as long as the ammo chrono's at the minimum velocity it doesn't matter if its a bolt gun or not. If the ammo chrono's less out of a 16" carbine then you're below minimum acceptable PF and are just shooting the match for FUN!!!! For USPSA everything is or should be PF driven, and should be calibrated by the smallest caliber allowed to compete in the match, with ammo reaching the minimum PF allowed, the gun doesn't matter, its the ammo. Trapr Edited November 22, 2009 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) Ken as long as the ammo chrono's at the minimum velocity it doesn't matter if its a bolt gun or not. If the ammo chrono's less out of a 16" carbine then you're below minimum acceptable PF and are just shooting the match for FUN!!!! For USPSA everything is or should be PF driven, and should be calibrated by the smallest caliber allowed to compete in the match, with ammo reaching the minimum PF allowed, the gun doesn't matter, its the ammo. Trapr[/q If you measure PF at the muzzle, and barely make minor there, you won't be anywhere near minor by the time you get to 400 yds. So, do we want the targets to fall, or indicate with a PF of 120, or 130? Less?? Edited November 22, 2009 by Mike P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Well, we (USPSA) measure PF at the muzzle, so yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I'm not volunteering my chrono for the downrange testing! I've seen some of you guys shoot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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