STI .40 Single Stack Problem

[Mercstar]

I can't shoot it for a couple of weeks......but I'll let you folks know.

Hi, I was just wondering if you've had the chance to shoot it already, please keep us posted and good luck! Happy shooting!

[oddjob]

Got the STI, but it was raining (I don't shoot in the rain). I have left the Trojan completely stock. I will shoot it with factory & my loads & etc with the mag that came with it (factory), Wilson 10mm mags, Chip Mc Mags, and Tripp mags (and whatever else I find). I thought it would be better to leave it completely stock & fire it. Trust me.....It will be different after (springs, trigger work & etc) I test fire it. Anyways....when the weather gets better I will shoot it & let you know.

[Mercstar]

Hey thanks for the update, I hope the weather there do get better soon, regards!

[oddjob]

Got done yesterday with a USPSA style "fun match" and used the new Trojan .40.

Factory mag (with the spacer in the back) with factory ammo (Rem & Federal). No problems.

Wilson mags, Chip, & Tripp mags: Bottom line is factory or my loads (oal of 1.165) would not feed the first round from a loaded mag (loaded to 8 rds). They would nose dive into the ramp. Most of the rounds would feed after the first round went off.

Some of the rounds would chamber part way and I had to give the slide a healthy whack or a push to get it to chamber (probably a tight extractor).

Out of a 60rd match (3 stages, 20 rd each) I had a total of about 15 malfunctions. I did not have a single reload where the first round fed. My "Barney" mag worked for the first round on two of the stages. I did not conduct an accuracy test. My older Trojan is accurate!

The nose dive problem was the same as my older Trojan .40 and it was fixed with a feed ramp reweld by my local gunsmith. I looked at both ramps and there is a difference. There's another thread on this so I won't bore people here. To be fair this gun is really, really tight. The nose dive issue probably won't go away. I will give STI first crack at fixing this under warranty.

Edited March 2, 2009 by oddjob

[G-ManBart]

Factory mag (with the spacer in the back) with factory ammo (Rem & Federal). No problems.

I will give STI first crack at fixing this under warranty.

Those two together might be a problem trying to get warranty service. It's working the way they sell it and you're trying to do something it technically isn't designed or intended to do. Granted, I sympathize with you, but I don't see how that's a warranty problem. R,

Edit to add:

If your reloads didn't feed the first round, were they slide lock reloads? If so, reloading after firing 8 rounds can make life a lot easier with any single stack. I found that even before I found the right OAL for my gun it didn't nose dive when feeding from a mag with 8 rounds in it so long as it was the gun cycling during firing rather than from slide lock.

Edited March 3, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Anthony Lombardo]

Two other things will also really excaerbate this problem-heavy recoil springs and heavy mag spring tension. Tripp and Wilson mags have a lot more spring tension on the top round than the factory mags with the spacer, that also contributes to the "nose down".

[oddjob]

G-Man....I realize there may be a warranty problem since the supplied magazine & factory ammo worked fine. But to be fair to STI & fellow shooters I felt the facts needed to be stated with this STI and I know you realize that. The nose dive occurred with no slide locks. The chamber had a round in it. I sent STI (Chris) an email describing the problems (and the fact it works with the supplied mag & factory ammo) to see if the gun can be fixed under warranty. We'll see if STI covers it.

Anthony....I tested this Trojan with factory everything in its guts. I know I can get this Trojan running like my other one with after market springs, mags & gun wrenching.

My local gunsmith is a warranty station for some really high end European shotguns & such. He is very highly regarded in his work and is very picky about components in any gun he works on. He is a flat genius with metal work & guns. He has told me he has yet to see any 1911 gun that had all the holes lined up properly. This gunsmith told me he had to "line up" holes or components in every 1911 he has wrenched on.

He also said the older Trojan I have is one of the best built 1911's he has seen & he welded & recut the ramp. He thought it was a custom piece at first. I will post more info as time goes on.

[G-ManBart]

G-Man....I realize there may be a warranty problem since the supplied magazine & factory ammo worked fine. But to be fair to STI & fellow shooters I felt the facts needed to be stated with this STI and I know you realize that. The nose dive occurred with no slide locks. The chamber had a round in it. I sent STI (Chris) an email describing the problems (and the fact it works with the supplied mag & factory ammo) to see if the gun can be fixed under warranty. We'll see if STI covers it.

Interesting....I'm surprised that it had the nose dives that way, but I guess they're all different. It'll be interesting to see what STI comes back with. I think it's reasonably fair for us to expect that Dave and his folks know the market they're catering to and most of us are going to be using them in SS division with stuff like 10mm mags, longer ammo etc, so it's not crazy to think they might want to consider some sort of "fix" going forward. Heck, I'm not even sure if there is a premium mag out there like the Wilson or Tripp that's set up for factory length ammo (spacer) and will readily accept basepads that will work with deep magwells like the SV or Techwell....so it almost forces folks into using something that the gun isn't designed around. R,

[oddjob]

Chris from STI sent me an email stating send it in along with the mags I'm using. He advised the work will take 7-10 days. Nice customer service.

[Mercstar]

Chris from STI sent me an email stating send it in along with the mags I'm using. He advised the work will take 7-10 days. Nice customer service.

...you mean STI's gonna tune it with your non-STI mags too? wow, really good CS then if so.

[dohboy]

the spacer in the magazine has no effect on the feedwall problem

If you have a good ramp the mags dont matter

If you have a feedwall the mags dont matter

Usually rounds #5 and #9 will nose dive and cause the gun to jam if you have a bad ramp

I think there's a pretty good sized mountain of evidence that refutes at least two of those points. My gun, totally stock, with the original mag that has the spacer ran perfectly with factory ammo...slide lock loads were flawless. I didn't want to stick with that since I wanted to use the same ammo as I do for my Limited gun. Using a Wilson 47NX, Tripp, and CMC mag and 1.200" ammo the gun wouldn't feed from slide lock all of the time. The spacer clearly made all the difference if the gun ran with factory ammo.

With the aftermarket mags without spacers the ONLY round that would nose dive was #1...never #5 or 9.

Your particular gun may have done what you said, but that's not what everyone else is seeing. I spent dozens of hours working with different mags, different bullets, different lengths and I can say with absolute confidence that the mags can, and do make a difference. Then again, the same is known to be true with 45acp 1911s as well. If your gun doesn't run people ask what mags and what ammo right?

Further, the ramp in the Trojan barrel is the SAME barrel as they put in bushing 2011s like Eagles and nobody claims they're "feedwalls" or suggests they're unreliable. It's not the angle of the ramp, it's the placement of the ramp in relation to the mag. Move it back towards the mag slightly and the problem goes away entirely. Other model guns have steeper ramps than the Trojan, and they work just fine because the placement of the ramp is correct.

People who don't understand the geometry of the system think it's the angle of the ramp, but that isn't the issue in this case....move it farther back and it could be even steeper and it'd run just fine. Why? Because if the geometry is correct between ramp and mag, and ammo of a suitable OAL is used, the bullet is only going to contact the ramp on the upper third or maybe quarter...heck, it's nearly in the chamber at that point.

The 1911 frame and mag are designed around 1.250" oal give or take some. Putting a .40 barrel in it with the ramp in the same place as a .45 ramp is wrong. Even with "long" .40 ammo at 1.200" it's still .05" too short and that causes a bigger jump from mag to ramp. During that extra distance the back of the cartridge is held by the feed lips, but the nose of the bullet hasn't quite reached the ramp so it's hanging in the breeze....even with the follower pushing up as much as it can, the nose has nowhere to go but down....and it hits the ramp with upward pressure on the back of the case. Essentially, the round is rotating nose down and head up....not what you want. That simply isn't a recipe for smooth feeding since the bullet isn't pointed where it's supposed to go.

Look at the spacer in those factory mags. How thick is it? I just measure mine and it was .100". Now, measure some factory .40 and you're normally going to get around 1.15" give or take a bit. 1.15" plus the spacer of .100" and amazingly we get 1.250".....coincidence? Not likely.

I settled on 1.250" ammo for my Trojan after many days of testing and a box full of dummy rounds loaded with various bullets and OALs and it eats them like M&M's......again, no coincidence. Either load really long ammo to put the bullet where it needs to be in relation to the ramp, or get a barrel with a ramp moved back towards the bullet (or have someone weld up the stock barrel to do the same thing) so that the same relationship will exist for shorter ammo. At the end of all that, it's really nothing more than the distance from the nose of the bullet to the face of the ramp that is the critical factor, not the specific angle of the ramp. R,

G-man,

My SSTK was built with a Caspian frame / slide and Kart barrel. I too have had problems with the first round nose diving. The question I have is would I have to have my .40 barrel reamed to accept the longer oal of 1.250"?

Also, do you have any issues with a partial mag dropping free? Me and another friend have problems with the top round "walking forward" just enough so the mag will not drop free.

Again great info and thanks to all for their input.

[G-ManBart]

G-man,

My SSTK was built with a Caspian frame / slide and Kart barrel. I too have had problems with the first round nose diving. The question I have is would I have to have my .40 barrel reamed to accept the longer oal of 1.250"?

Also, do you have any issues with a partial mag dropping free? Me and another friend have problems with the top round "walking forward" just enough so the mag will not drop free.

Again great info and thanks to all for their input.

Whether your barrel is set up for long .40 just sorta depends on how the smith set it up and the specifics on the barrel. I've shot a SS .40 with a Kart barrel, but don't really know anything about them other than it seemed to work just fine. If your gun was built by a smith that does guns for a lot of USPSA shooters there's a good chance you won't need to have anything done to shoot the longer ammo. My factory STI barrel was fine with that 1.25 (and longer) OAL right out of the box, but I have no idea how Kart does their .40 barrels. Someone else might know about that and I'm sure they'll chime in if they do. I do know that my Schuemann Classic AET (that's going in the gun soon) won't accept 1.250" ammo....the freebore is different because of the AET profile and the way they cut the chamber. It will take 1.20 and somewhat longer, but I'm not sure exactly how long right now....one more thing to check.

On the mag issue, I only had that problem with the Tripp "System Mag" which is set up to work with the large Techwell magwell. When the top round would move slightly forward it would spread the feed lips just enough to hang up on the inside of the frame. It won't drop free until about three rounds have been fired. That's not acceptable to me because there are times that you might wind up at slide lock, reload, release the slide, drop that mag and put in a full one so you're not going to slide lock every single array afterwards. Obviously, you need some distance to move to be able to do that and have it worthwhile, but it is a possibility.

Using Wilson 47NX and McCormick 10mm mags I haven't had that problem...they drop free whether they're full or partially full. They seem to feed almost equally well with a slight edge going to the Wilson....or at least it seems that way when hand cycling the gun. The problem with the CMC's is that they don't offer a basepad that's long enough to work with the large Techwell. I made a plastic spacer to go between the basedpad and the mag body and that fixed the problem.

Anyway, that's not terribly specific, but maybe it'll help some:-)

[oddjob]

Quick followup. Spoke to Chris at STI & he acknowledged there was a problem with the feed ramp and the how its blended into the frame. He said the rounds nose dived on him too. He is wrenching on it as I type. Very nice service so far.

[oddjob]

Got the gun back from STI. The warranty report states "tune/blend feed ramp to frame" & "adjust/tune extractor"& "polish breech". There is a notation under magazine repairs "spread feed lips". Thus far the customer service has been very good. Now I gotta find time to go to the range and test this puppy out.

[CenTX]

The used early Trojan 40 I bought would feed most rounds loaded to 8 reliably, but with 9 rounds in the mags it would nose dive almost every time. This was with the mag that came with the gun, Wilson or Tripp (both 40 or 10mm). I gave STI the gun with 3 of the mags and my 1.18 reloads (which I use in my Eagle). Don't remember everything on the Warranty Report, but They recut the ramp and then blended it. Your barrel may have been different since mine was an early one, SN: TS 25XX.

Got it back from STI Tuesday and took it out yesterday to test. All my mags can now be loaded to 9 rounds and run everything I tried. Reloaded XTP 180 JHP, Berry 165 & 180 FP, Berry 180 HP, Remingto factory etc. this was out of four different types of magazines.

I am really pleased with STI's warranty service.

[oddjob]

Glad to hear that.........Now I can't wait till I shoot this........

[Gary Stevens]

Well, to add to the information base I'll tell my journey into this area.

Custom built STI frame and slide, Bar-Sto barrel traditional (non ramped). The gun is absolutely great, except for the unreliable feeding.

Wilson 40 cal magazines, still has the problem.

EGW higher mag catch, better but still has the problem.

Try a variety of bullets and shapes at a variety of lengths, still has a problem. The shorter length seems to work better, but still not 100 percent.

Finally, a friend gives me some Precision Delta 180 FP bullets. These bullets are darn near round nose with just a very small flat point. Start at 1.115 and shazzam, 100 percent feeding. Absolutely no malfunctions with this bullet and this length. The length allows the feed lips to release the bullet just as it starts up into the barrel.

Now I am a happy camper, except I don't think PD will get me the new bullet order in enough time to use them at the Area 6 match.

[Beretta Lover]

you need to send your gun to Virgil Tripp to reweld you feedwall.

Once he does this it will feed everything, Gold dots, round nose ammo, berry's flat points, anything from Montana Gold, Lead SWC ammo etc

the bad ramp angle is well documented on this forum.

Polishing the ramp, using a higher mag catch, special ammo isnt the long term answer IMHO

Once Virgil rewelded my feedwall, it became a feedramp and I very very very very very rarely ever have any feedway related problems

[CenTX]

you need to send your gun to Virgil Tripp to reweld you feedwall.

Once he does this it will feed everything, Gold dots, round nose ammo, berry's flat points, anything from Montana Gold, Lead SWC ammo etc

the bad ramp angle is well documented on this forum.

Polishing the ramp, using a higher mag catch, special ammo isnt the long term answer IMHO

Once Virgil rewelded my feedwall, it became a feedramp and I very very very very very rarely ever have any feedway related problems

I had intended to send mine to Tripp for the reweld, but since mine was STI built, figured it was worth it to try the warranty repair. So far I'm glad I did. It now runs on everything I have tried, factory and four or five different bullets in my reloads, at 1.18 OAL. These were tried with all seven of my mags, the one that came with the gun, a Tripp 40, Tripp 10mm and four Wilsons. Obviously the 40 Tripp mag could not be tested on long reloads because of the spacer Tripp has in the mag, but it ran with factory length rounds.

The Warranty Report said "BBL had old Ramp cut, Sent Bbl out to the floor to be re machined and get new ramp cut, this corrected the problem". So far, 250+ plus rounds, it appears to be running fine. Since I have only run a few hundred rounds through the gun, I can't be absolutely sure, but it appears that STI warranty repair did the job and I saved some money. I bought the gun used and got a good deal, it is an early Trojan. I didn't even know about the STI warranty when I bought the gun.

[oddjob]

OK.......Didn't shoot it in a match, but a quick test fire. I used Chip & Wilson mags and had zero problems. I fired 40 rounds from both types of mags and all went well. I know this is really not a good test, but it was hot today (I know the last time I wouldn't shoot in the rain.......I'm a wimp). And we all know if a gun chokes it will always be at a match! Any ways I had no problems & it looks like STI fixed the problem. My next step is a trigger job and mess with the recoil spring and main spring (12lb recoil & 17 lb main spring). I've learned from this forum to do one change at a time (when I'm not sending it to the gun gurus). By the way I looked at the photos of the before and after job on the gunsmithing forum. The ramp area looks like the after photos.

Bottom line is STI looks like they came through!

[G-ManBart]

OK.......Didn't shoot it in a match, but a quick test fire. I used Chip & Wilson mags and had zero problems. I fired 40 rounds from both types of mags and all went well. I know this is really not a good test, but it was hot today (I know the last time I wouldn't shoot in the rain.......I'm a wimp). And we all know if a gun chokes it will always be at a match! Any ways I had no problems & it looks like STI fixed the problem. My next step is a trigger job and mess with the recoil spring and main spring (12lb recoil & 17 lb main spring). I've learned from this forum to do one change at a time (when I'm not sending it to the gun gurus). By the way I looked at the photos of the before and after job on the gunsmithing forum. The ramp area looks like the after photos.

Bottom line is STI looks like they came through!

Cool!

Keep us updated as you get more rounds through it.

The week before last I finally got around to sending my Trojan to Derek at Millennium so he could fit the Schuemann Classic AET I had for it. I figured since I'm wearing a Schuemann shirt I probably ought to have one their barrels in my gun! I also sent him a couple of Wilson 47NX's, a box of factory 165gr FMJs and 100 of my standard 1.200" .40 Major so he can test it. He did tell me he normally sets up his .40 single stacks to run with Wilson 47D's. I've got a few of those here and will compare when it gets back. R,

[STI2011]

I just bought an STI uspsa single stack in .40 and, like alot of the folks on this thread, I planned to share bullets between my limited gun and the single stack. My oal is 1.180 with MG 180 FMJ. Am I going to have these same issues or is this just with the Trojans? Other than getting the feedramp adjusted, is there any other magic cure for .40 loaded long using 10mm tripp or wilson mags? or should I just load to factory length and be done with it.

[Mercstar]

HI everyone, I just saw this new Wilson Magazine 47fx that's suppose to be a newer model being the 47nx is now 10mm specific, anybody have any experience with this new mag?

Here is the link

http://www.brianenos.com/store/wilson.html

Im wondering if it has any spacer at the back to make it 40cal and 357sig specific as that is only thing I could think of to make different from the 47nx 10mm mags.

[1973]

you need to send your gun to Virgil Tripp to reweld you feedwall.

Once he does this it will feed everything, Gold dots, round nose ammo, berry's flat points, anything from Montana Gold, Lead SWC ammo etc

the bad ramp angle is well documented on this forum.

Polishing the ramp, using a higher mag catch, special ammo isnt the long term answer IMHO

Once Virgil rewelded my feedwall, it became a feedramp and I very very very very very rarely ever have any feedway related problems

I took Beretta Lover's advice a few weeks ago and could not be happier. It went from a nose diving paper weight to the smoothest action gun I have ever owned. It is a testimate to Mr Tripp and his ability to make smaller caliber 1911's function. I had considered just giving it away before I sent it to him and now it is a gun I am proud to own.

[dohboy]

HI everyone, I just saw this new Wilson Magazine 47fx that's suppose to be a newer model being the 47nx is now 10mm specific, anybody have any experience with this new mag?

Here is the link

http://www.brianenos.com/store/wilson.html

Im wondering if it has any spacer at the back to make it 40cal and 357sig specific as that is only thing I could think of to make different from the 47nx 10mm mags.

Wow thanks for the info. Of course in my case, I finally found the oal for my .40 rounds to work in the 47NX mags and now they have the 47FX. Hopefully someone will have more insight on these mags.