Solution for EAA Witness Limited .40 S&W Nose Dive Issues

[photog]

Hello,

If needed we can offer the die opened up for pass through, Chris alerted us to this post today.

best regards

geo

www.egwguns.com

What would be great is a pass though die that had a more tapered entry. I use a standard Lee sizing die that has been hack sawed, and starting the case through it is the hardest/slowest part. I then run the case through a EGW U-die.

[B.H.M.]

I just hacked the top of the U-Die off right about the "carbide sizing piece" (not sure what its actually called). I left enough threads so that I could use the nut to secure a tupperware piece between the nut and the top of the Gizmo to catch the brass after it is pushed through.

[JCB]

I got to think of one thing.

I use the U-Die in my Super1050.

In station 2 there is this primer pocket cleaner. The cunterpart fitted in the tool head of that operation actually takes away some of the u-die action since it expandes the case a little, and half way down.

It also got me to think about whats the benefit of the u-die?

The bulge in the bottom of the case is still the same.

The front part where the bullet is in the case is sized on the bullet/crimp.

So the only space left where the u-die is working is between the bulge and the seating of the bullet

Also, since bulge is a factor for feeding problem after what I understand, would this effect be bigger with the U-Die since the difference between the bulge and case is greater that using a normal Lee die?

It just got me thinking......

I have used the bulge remover a little bit, and of course, that helps a lot.

For my part, original follower, no problem... but one round less....

Jostein

[Iggy42]

I have asked this several times and I am yet to get a straight answer

Can you run factory ammo in a Limited with 140mm mags (Henning Tuned mags - .40 S&W of course) and not get nose dives? I see it happens for those using reloaded brass but no one will tell me if this problem exsists for those of us that have to use store bought (WWB and such due to budget concerns)ammo. I thing nose is still an issue, but everything I ask all I get is people talking about reloading to a certain OAL and the case resizers. I cannot take this option and I will be using factory ammo and I am trying like hell to find out if I am going to have a problem and if so what can I do about it without buying a reloading bench (spacial restrictions make this impossible for the moment).

[NoSteel]

When I originally purchased my Limited I ran WWB in the stock .40S&W with the stock base pad as well as one updated with the Hennings kit and had feed issues each time (1-2 per mag) Since I switch to the 10mm mags and my own long reloads I never tried to take any actions to figure out that problem. I still ran into nose dive issues with my current set up but with much less frequency and can usually be attributed to my brass, mag tuning or who knows what else. I am currently anxious to see a new Mec -Gar mag for this platform otherwise I have an STI Edge in the works for the future. I just love the look/feel of that Limited though.

[photog]

I have asked this several times and I am yet to get a straight answer

Can you run factory ammo in a Limited with 140mm mags (Henning Tuned mags - .40 S&W of course) and not get nose dives? I see it happens for those using reloaded brass but no one will tell me if this problem exsists for those of us that have to use store bought (WWB and such due to budget concerns)ammo. I thing nose is still an issue, but everything I ask all I get is people talking about reloading to a certain OAL and the case resizers. I cannot take this option and I will be using factory ammo and I am trying like hell to find out if I am going to have a problem and if so what can I do about it without buying a reloading bench (spacial restrictions make this impossible for the moment).

You may need to adjust the lips of your mag, but one *should* not get nose dives with factory new ammo, with the factory follower.

Nose dives with the gramms follower do occur for some using factory ammo. although this does not seem to be very common.

[Iggy42]

I have asked this several times and I am yet to get a straight answer

Can you run factory ammo in a Limited with 140mm mags (Henning Tuned mags - .40 S&W of course) and not get nose dives? I see it happens for those using reloaded brass but no one will tell me if this problem exsists for those of us that have to use store bought (WWB and such due to budget concerns)ammo. I thing nose is still an issue, but everything I ask all I get is people talking about reloading to a certain OAL and the case resizers. I cannot take this option and I will be using factory ammo and I am trying like hell to find out if I am going to have a problem and if so what can I do about it without buying a reloading bench (spacial restrictions make this impossible for the moment).

You may need to adjust the lips of your mag, but one *should* not get nose dives with factory new ammo, with the factory follower.

Nose dives with the gramms follower do occur for some using factory ammo. although this does not seem to be very common.

Just so I am clear:

Factory Mag + Henning Pad + Stock Follower + Gramms spring = no feeding problems (once I tweak the lips a bit)

Lip tweaking I can deal with, having to running hand loaded "long" I can't (at this time, hopefully one of these days I will get a reloading bench)

How many in the mag would I get? 20? 21?

[Skydiver]

I have asked this several times and I am yet to get a straight answer

Can you run factory ammo in a Limited with 140mm mags (Henning Tuned mags - .40 S&W of course) and not get nose dives? I see it happens for those using reloaded brass but no one will tell me if this problem exsists for those of us that have to use store bought (WWB and such due to budget concerns)ammo. I thing nose is still an issue, but everything I ask all I get is people talking about reloading to a certain OAL and the case resizers. I cannot take this option and I will be using factory ammo and I am trying like hell to find out if I am going to have a problem and if so what can I do about it without buying a reloading bench (spacial restrictions make this impossible for the moment).

You may need to adjust the lips of your mag, but one *should* not get nose dives with factory new ammo, with the factory follower.

Nose dives with the gramms follower do occur for some using factory ammo. although this does not seem to be very common.

Just so I am clear:

Factory Mag + Henning Pad + Stock Follower + Gramms spring = no feeding problems (once I tweak the lips a bit)

Lip tweaking I can deal with, having to running hand loaded "long" I can't (at this time, hopefully one of these days I will get a reloading bench)

How many in the mag would I get? 20? 21?

I think that you have to use the Gramm's follower with the Gramm's spring. If you go with the Stock Follower, use the Stock Spring, although, personally I recommend picking up CZ-75 springs from Wolff (gunsprings.com). The Wolff Springs loop around the extruded center of the stock follower preventing the spring from peeking out the front of the .40 S&W mag. Additionally, the Wolff Springs seem to be angled the right way out of the box so that you don't have to bend up the forward part of the stock spring to help prevent nose dives.

I think with the stock follower without trimmng the legs, you'll get about 17 or 18. If you trim the legs and center extrusion a little bit, you may get to 19. (It's the flat configuration of the Gramm's follower and the telescoping layout of the Gramm's spring that gets you the extra capacity.)

[Iggy42]

I have asked this several times and I am yet to get a straight answer

Can you run factory ammo in a Limited with 140mm mags (Henning Tuned mags - .40 S&W of course) and not get nose dives? I see it happens for those using reloaded brass but no one will tell me if this problem exsists for those of us that have to use store bought (WWB and such due to budget concerns)ammo. I thing nose is still an issue, but everything I ask all I get is people talking about reloading to a certain OAL and the case resizers. I cannot take this option and I will be using factory ammo and I am trying like hell to find out if I am going to have a problem and if so what can I do about it without buying a reloading bench (spacial restrictions make this impossible for the moment).

You may need to adjust the lips of your mag, but one *should* not get nose dives with factory new ammo, with the factory follower.

Nose dives with the gramms follower do occur for some using factory ammo. although this does not seem to be very common.

Just so I am clear:

Factory Mag + Henning Pad + Stock Follower + Gramms spring = no feeding problems (once I tweak the lips a bit)

Lip tweaking I can deal with, having to running hand loaded "long" I can't (at this time, hopefully one of these days I will get a reloading bench)

How many in the mag would I get? 20? 21?

I think that you have to use the Gramm's follower with the Gramm's spring. If you go with the Stock Follower, use the Stock Spring, although, personally I recommend picking up CZ-75 springs from Wolff (gunsprings.com). The Wolff Springs loop around the extruded center of the stock follower preventing the spring from peeking out the front of the .40 S&W mag. Additionally, the Wolff Springs seem to be angled the right way out of the box so that you don't have to bend up the forward part of the stock spring to help prevent nose dives.

I think with the stock follower without trimmng the legs, you'll get about 17 or 18. If you trim the legs and center extrusion a little bit, you may get to 19. (It's the flat configuration of the Gramm's follower and the telescoping layout of the Gramm's spring that gets you the extra capacity.)

Alright thanks for the info. If I do end up getting a Limited I will probably end up getting the tuned mags from Henning since from what photog said even with the Gramms stuff store bought ammo seems to be fairly trouble free, just some lip massaging possibly. At least that way I can still get 21 in the mag.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Iggy42

[Dryw]

Could be way off-base here, but I distinctly recall Henning telling me (hell of a nice/helpful guy btw... way more patient with me than I would have been) that the Grams follower requires you to:

1) Pop out the front (older style) or rear (newer style) follower guide rail in the factory mag so the Grams will fit and travel

2) Load long for .40 as the follower guide rail helps keeps standard OAL rounds in-place under pressure.

Somewhat of a neophyte to Tanfos in general, but I recall this as I was all giddy about getting reliable 21 rounds out of factory ammo and placed an order for the innards to stick in my factory mags. Henning called me and steered me away (but correctly) because most of what I fire is factory. No follower guide rail + Grams + factory ammo = sloppy rounds in the mag.

Sound about right to those in the know?

[Maksim]

What about using the Lee Bulge Buster Kit?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=882261

[CHA-LEE]

What about using the Lee Bulge Buster Kit?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=882261

That should get the cases straight but I doubt that it will undersize the brass. If this push through die only brings the case back to .420 then you will still have round stackup issues. If you can retrofit an EGW U-Die onto that thing so you can undersize the whole case down to .415 then it should work just as well as the Gizmo.

There are two key reasons for pushing the brass all the way through the resizing die. The first is so that the case is straight from top to bottom. The second is to undersize the brass to .415 so it stacks up well in the mag. If you can find another push though solution other than the Gizmo that does this then it should work.

[JCB]

I have the Lee Bulge kit. Used for a while with Lee Fact.Crimp, did not remove my nosedive issue.

But for me, using the 1050 with U-Die, I found out that the u-die sizes down, but the counter part/die on the primerpocket puched half the brass back out.

That was the main reason. Chaning that and going a little longer on my AOL, worked "fine"

But for that limit pushing mag, yes, I tried today a couple of mags that where pushed thru the EGW die, and 19 is hard to get in with the H-550 pad, but stack nice and no problem 19+1

But Im not shure how long the Lee press will hold.

Pushing thru the u-die can be really hard. And for me it looks like the Lee press is going to break down everytime

And CHA-LEE, I also adjustet my feedlips to 0.380-0.385

I tried some regular brass not undersizes fully, just with the u-die in the dillon and 1.225" AOL, and it worked.

So my thought was maybe to use that setup on all mags. If possible to use your recepie for match and normal for practise.....

[CHA-LEE]

JCB> What "Works" depends on the quantity of proven successful jam free rounds shot. I can tell you that my solution has worked to eliminate nose dives for tens of thousands of rounds. Trying a different solution for a few hundred rounds may not be a solid test to see if it actually solve the issue or not.

[pivoproseem]

I've never had a problem with the Grams guts +.40 or 10mm mags. I load over 1.185 and use a U-die.

JCB> What "Works" depends on the quantity of proven successful jam free rounds shot. I can tell you that my solution has worked to eliminate nose dives for tens of thousands of rounds. Trying a different solution for a few hundred rounds may not be a solid test to see if it actually solve the issue or not.

[CHA-LEE]

Can you load all of your mags to 21+1 every time and not have it nose dive? I have seen people have success with your setup but they have to download to 18 - 19 rounds to keep it from nose diving.

[pivoproseem]

I usually only load 20 in the mag, but when I have to have 22 in the gun, it works every time.

Can you load all of your mags to 21+1 every time and not have it nose dive? I have seen people have success with your setup but they have to download to 18 - 19 rounds to keep it from nose diving.

[pivoproseem]

Of course, I jinxed myself and had some issues today, I could only load to 18 without nose dive issues....I found that my sizing die wasn't adjusted right to size the whole case.

I usually only load 20 in the mag, but when I have to have 22 in the gun, it works every time.

Can you load all of your mags to 21+1 every time and not have it nose dive? I have seen people have success with your setup but they have to download to 18 - 19 rounds to keep it from nose diving.

[CHA-LEE]

I wanted to update everyone on this. I am still using the "Old Style" EAA/Tanfo 10mm magazines and this undersizing process and it still works flawlessly. I have probably shot over 50K on this undersize brass setup and it works with zero feed failures. Yes its more work to undersize your brass first, then run it through your press, but it works.

Now that EAA has released the "New Style" K40 magazines you can use standard OAL ammo without needing to undersize the whole case. So if you don't want to run long OAL rounds and fully undersize the brass you can just get the "New Style" K40 magazines and run standard length OAL rounds. The only limitation that I have seen with the new K40 magazines is that you can only get 20 rounds in them instead of the old style magazines where you could get 21 rounds.

All new magazines ordered from EAA will be the "New Style" magazines so keep that in mind the next time you order.

[Casman]

The only limitation that I have seen with the new K40 magazines is that you can only get 20 rounds in them instead of the old style magazines where you could get 21 rounds.

Just to update the update, I have been running the new K40 mags since June and you can get 21+1 reloadable in them, so no loss there. My initial write-up did say that I thought It would be tough to get 21, but I was wrong it just took a little spring break-in. I did some detailed write-ups about them a while back on this page but in a different K40 thread.

I haven't had a single feed issue with them since I switched over and that was running through 4 major 3-Gun matches and 2 regional pistol matches and of course lots of local matches. The only downside I see is that with the factory OAL you cant make a 180gr bullet major with Clays, and that is a nice load.

Here is the thread from earlier in the year.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132872

Edited December 22, 2011 by Casman