2008 match report

[bigbrowndog]

The following info is based on discussions that have taken place a dinner tables, in vehicles coming back from matches, and in hotel rooms after matches. the participants in the discussions range from top 10 shooters to mid level, to beginners, from match directors and range masters to RO's, Match sponsors and plain old competitors.

Here is what we have seen in 2008 ,and what we would like to see next year.

First and foremost, matches need to be kept SIMPLE. for various and numerous reasons, simple is faster, less prone to breakage, easier for the masses to grasp, and less frustrating for ALL involved.

A vast and welcomed effort was put out by MD's and RM's to make long range targets visible for competitors. However the trend to stretching out rifle distances is getting silly and frustrating. We do not shoot LONG RANGE rifle, we shoot PRACTICAL RIFLE, and practical rifle distances should not exceed 400yds/mtrs.

Rifle targets should not be smaller than 4moa, if rifle accuracy and talent is to be tested then utilize other positions, hasty field positions.

To eliminate the interface errors between shooter and RO, rifle targets should FALL, this allows the shooter to KNOW that the target was hit, it eliminates JUDGEMENT calls such as "you're shooting .308, if you had really hit that it would have really flashed" excuse me but a .308 can edge a target just like a .223 can, and if a round bounces up into a target and flashes it it should count as a hit if the target flashed. Using falling targets completely eliminates these problems, it also eliminates RO's from calling hits.

The use of BONUS targets makes for fun and challenging stages however the bonuses or penalties should not cause a stage ZERO, make them realistic to the stage not an arbitrary number of seconds. Stages have used bonus seconds that were 2/3's the total time to run the stage, a 30 sec. bonus for a 45 sec. stage is unrealistic.

The same can be said for MAX times, it seems that these are not realistic as well, and matches choose to use the same Max. time for every stage be it a speed ourse or long course. Max. time should also mean just that, not Max. time plus penalties.

The match that seemed to be set up for the masses was DPMS Trigun, it was simple except for one part on a stage with flying birds. The rifle was challenging but not ridiculous, there were some innovative use of props, and there was more than one way to shoot each stage. Each weapon skill was adequately tested and neither seemed to be favored.

For the most part every matches RO's worked very hard to make the match a success for the shooter, We could not recall any RO's that stood out as being problematic. One trend that we noticed was the use of caution tape for fault lines, or "flexible" faultlines. These can lead to tripping hazards and can cause a stage to be shot in a manner not intended by the designer or MD, TACTILE faultlines would be better and not cause a stage to be run differently by different RO's.

This leads to another suggestion that even for RO shooting days, stages should have dedicated RO's, some things should not be allowed to be interpreted by different people.

A very good point, controversial but a good point, that was brought up was the DQing of a shooter for dropping an unloaded gun on a stage, We place loaded guns in barrels and boxes all the time and then proceed downrange of them without being DQed!!!! Why should a competitor be DQed for dropping an unloaded gun, the RO can notify them that they may need it later on in the stage, and the time required to stop and pick it up should be sufficient penalty. This penalty seems to be hold over from the "OH MY GOD, HE DROPPED HIS/HER GUN" (loaded) days. If the Host range has this as a rule then so be it, if not then we felt it should be addressed using common sense.

One very nice trend, that affected me personally at a match. Is the, you smack a shot target with a slug, and you pay 25.00 and receive a time penalty as well. This, rather than being DQed from a match is what seems to be common sense prevailing over knee jerk reactions, or thats the way its always been philosophy.

Another not so nice thing that seems to be happening across the board here in the US, is that matches seem to be effectively KILLING iron sight classes, be they HM or Tactical, by target presentation, and multiple class/division infusion. The only way to increase participation and competition in certain classes is to simplify divisions or increase match participation.

All in all the matches have improved in stage design, target presentation, scoring, and fun level. The competition in all classes has improved, the use of innovative targets, and the use of fresh MD's and RM's has brought a new level of experience to each and every match. Despite what appears to be looming on the horizon for gun owners, 2009 looks very promising for competitors. I for one look forward with great anticipation to the coming new shooting season.

Any and all comments, or anything we may have missed please feel free to add.

trapr

[abn-rgr]

Nice write up. I would like to hear others comments as I am fairly new to 3 gun.

[kurtm]

Thanks for typing it all up Trapr! I would have done more but I am stuck in Wyo! Great job. KurtM

[Scout454]

Well put trapr!

I've been sitting here re-reading your missive, massaging my knew knee and wondering if I should add to it.

The competitors who shoot and the RO's who work these IMGA "style" Outlaw 3 gun matches need to stop thinking about other diciplines.

These matches are not USPSA Multi-Gun, they are not IDPA and they are not IPSC. The rules change somewhat from match to match, venue to venue and everyone who participates must know what the rules are for that given match.

[J-Ho]

+ a whole bunch on the iron sight comment.

[Jim Norman]

Sadly Iron Sights are not that common anymore for one reason, a lot of us are vision impaired. A few years ago I could still see and hit a 10" plate at 300 yards with an iron sighted rifle, not so anymore, I just can't see that well so out comes the scope.

I do think that the current single optic on rifle, none on pistol or SG is a reasonable solution to keep the older guys shooting. I'd love to come up with a way to entice more people to shoot irons, but I jusst draw a blank now.

As for different rules at different matches, OK, not a problem there, just publish them in advance of the match. Don't assume that everyone will know your unwritten range rules. Same goes for scoring. As long as we know going in, and the system makes at least some sense, its good.

I have to agree that targets much past 400 yards are not 'Carbine' targets, but rather 'Battle Rifle' targets. Dropping an UNLOADED gun, hmmm, that one is questionable. I'd go this far, empty, no problem, BUT no coaching, shooter gets to the end of the COF where he needs it and finds out he is missing it, then he can take the penalties.

I'll also agree that bonus targets should be limited in their use and also in relation to the overall stage score. Max time sadly seems to be required, otherwise we see people shooting til they melt their barrels (practice anyone?) A 180 second limit on all stages keeps a match moving. It only really comes into play on either a complex stage or a rifle stage with longer tight shots. Adding FTE and Miss penalties might seem a little over the top, but otherwise if you are scoring a time plus modification all the shooters that didn't finish would all score 180.

It is very important that there be a significant penalty for not realistically engaging a target. You can't allow a shooter to pop off three quick rounds and move on in 5 seconds from a 400 yard target when a realistic engagement might be 10 seconds to acquire the position and actually aim. This can skew a match badly.

One good thing I see is the trend towards assigning points toa stage and awarding them on a percentage of the stage winner. This eliminates the posibility of a shooter smoking an otherwide very long stage and winning due to stellar performance on one or two stages only out of an otherwise mediocre performance. It make the shooters have to strive for consistent performance.

Jim

[Benelli Chick]

Thanks Trapr!

I feel a little warm and fuzzy 'cause a couple things you seemed to like, we kind of started at RM3G.

I agree with you about the knock downs, but at 400 yards, I haven't found one we can afford. We had over 16 long range rifle targets that were engaged multiple times(which means you need even more targets), which is another problem with knock-downs, but I get your drift.

The only thing, I'm going to have to disagree you on is the max time thing. You probably don't really ever get near max time, but I do, and this is how I see it. Let's say on a 180 second stage, I manage to finish it in 178 and hit everything. The next guy times out and leaves several targets. I think I deserve a better score than him/her and not by just 2 seconds. I think the max time is the max time you're allowed to bang at stuff until they tell you to give up! I just find a hard max time that everyone gets to be similar to a zero in USPSA. Us less good shooters get no chance to compare. I may have bombed a stage, but I want to know that I bombed it less than someone else!

I think max time forces you to use your time wisely, and at least shoot at everything, so you get through most of the course and don't just get hung up at the beginning. The variable max times that we use at RM3G, allows you to time the match better and make it go more smoothly, AND let you have more time to shoot if it's a tough stage with little reset or whatever. For example, stage 1 at RM3G 2008 had a max time of 300 compared to our normal max time of 180. That's 5 whole minutes, but with no reset, you could shoot more, the stage was hard, and as soon as the shooter was done, he walked back and the next guy popped in a mag and was ready to go! We shoot for 6 minute turn around time on our stages.

Anyway, thanks for your well thought out ideas. It gives everyone something to think about. I do wish I could figure out how to get a few more people in Irons as well. Even more entrants doesn't seem to make a difference as Johnson 3-Gun, Rocky Mountain 3-Gun and from what I can tell of the other big matches from their reports have about 10% of shooter's shooting Irons and that's it. We try to have bright backers that are small enough to see some of your misses and still make the target visible, but at 400 yards, well, I can't see them that well with my scope.

Thanks again, and Happy New Year to you all!

Denise

[AlamoShooter]

I'm new but I don't like to hear any thing that moves to a "limit" as in limit shots to 400 yards and under. I like the idea that I need to know ware my gun hits at 10 yards and out to 600 +

Having a strange position and a small target too at longer distance seams to Pile It On.

I like the idea of 4moa that would mean a target at 400 yards is going to be 16" 500 yards 20" not a big deal unless the shooter is trying to make time in a match.

The good guys will hit them fast and even the newbies will / should hit them.

For me if I knew ahead of time that 3 gun never had shots past 400 yards I don't think I would have tryed it.

A rifle that will only hit under 300 yards does not seam interesting to me at all. may as well stick with hand gun matches

[Benelli Chick]

Small thread drift!

I'm a school teacher and we're doing this Standards Based grading thing, that says a student can't get less than 50% on a major assignment. No zeros! We won't go into what I think of this, but suffice it to say that I feel that in some ways, it's that "we just want the students to feel good". Anyway, at Ft. Benning, I did really well for me on the long range rifle stage, but I wasn't the speediest by a long shot. I had one miss, and thus ended up with like 170. If everyone who had timed out etc had gotten 180, then I wouldn't have gotten very many points gain on that stage. Also, if the fastest time was 90 seconds (I know it was faster) then everyone who shot that stage would have gotten a 50% at least and half the match points for the stage!

It's standards based grading for shooters!

Now, back to more important thoughts!

Denise

[bigbrowndog]

Denise you bring up a good point about a shooter that hits everything in 178sec. should be rewarded more than a shooter who hits nothing and takes 180secs. I see your point, and agree.

as for the rifle over 400yds, our thinking was that in the real world, if a shot over 250-300yds was needed the unit would call for its DMR shooter, who generally would have a 3x9 or 10x scope on their specialized rifle.

Trapr

[M ammo]

The only thing, I'm going to have to disagree you on is the max time thing. You probably don't really ever get near max time, but I do, and this is how I see it. Let's say on a 180 second stage, I manage to finish it in 178 and hit everything. The next guy times out and leaves several targets. I think I deserve a better score than him/her and not by just 2 seconds. I think the max time is the max time you're allowed to bang at stuff until they tell you to give up! I just find a hard max time that everyone gets to be similar to a zero in USPSA. Us less good shooters get no chance to compare. I may have bombed a stage, but I want to know that I bombed it less than someone else! +1 on that

+1 on that!!!!!!!!

The person that hits the targets,,, should win not the guy who runs fast, and popps off some rounds... cuz the rules have a hole in them.

Sportsmanship or Gamesmanship

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[uscbigdawg]

Hey Trapr,

Great piece!!!!

First and foremost, matches need to be kept SIMPLE. for various and numerous reasons, simple is faster, less prone to breakage, easier for the masses to grasp, and less frustrating for ALL involved.

Simplicity is a beautiful thing. Make it a shooting competition, not a series of gimmick, prop driven or hidden target goofiness. The best examples that I've seen of this are this year's Area 2 and the FTB3G. Both matches had zero gimmicks to them. You had to shoot fast when you had to go fast and aim when you really had to aim. Bottom line is that there was no roller coasters or hidden targets or any random thing that could give the match to someone else. Heck, at Area 2, the one "memory" stage wasn't really a memory stage once you realized you had to go to all 3 ports and you basically shot the targets that were pointed in your direction.

A vast and welcomed effort was put out by MD's and RM's to make long range targets visible for competitors. However the trend to stretching out rifle distances is getting silly and frustrating. We do not shoot LONG RANGE rifle, we shoot PRACTICAL RIFLE, and practical rifle distances should not exceed 400yds/mtrs.

Rifle targets should not be smaller than 4moa, if rifle accuracy and talent is to be tested then utilize other positions, hasty field positions.

Whole heartedly agree. While some of us shoot our AR's out to 600, for fun, it's not where these rifles are best suited. 400 is definitely the "practical" limit. I'll put a real world example to this. In Iraq or Afghanistan, if you were more than 400 from me, I left the AO and called in a team to go get you. No point in trying to get you with my M-4 when I have other things to worry about (bleeding soldiers being the highest priority).

The use of BONUS targets makes for fun and challenging stages however the bonuses or penalties should not cause a stage ZERO, make them realistic to the stage not an arbitrary number of seconds. Stages have used bonus seconds that were 2/3's the total time to run the stage, a 30 sec. bonus for a 45 sec. stage is unrealistic.

The same can be said for MAX times, it seems that these are not realistic as well, and matches choose to use the same Max. time for every stage be it a speed ourse or long course. Max. time should also mean just that, not Max. time plus penalties.

Heck yeah! Bonus targets definitely make things interesting if only because you get a little 'roll the dice' on time vs. the bonus in there.

For the most part every matches RO's worked very hard to make the match a success for the shooter, We could not recall any RO's that stood out as being problematic. One trend that we noticed was the use of caution tape for fault lines, or "flexible" faultlines. These can lead to tripping hazards and can cause a stage to be shot in a manner not intended by the designer or MD, TACTILE faultlines would be better and not cause a stage to be run differently by different RO's.

This leads to another suggestion that even for RO shooting days, stages should have dedicated RO's, some things should not be allowed to be interpreted by different people.

RO'ed FB3G this year and can say that having a dedicated stage crew is a must. First, we knew the stage inside and out. Second, when a squad that decided to show up 20 minutes late jacked up our timing, we were able to shuffle and make it up because of having found a routine to get ahead of the time schedule. Finally, since we were on the stage all weekend, we saw every possible way a shooter could screw it up (we had the bridge) and thus when conflicts in interpretations of how to shoot the stage came up we could discuss it from all seen and unseen angles and had an established precedent.

Another not so nice thing that seems to be happening across the board here in the US, is that matches seem to be effectively KILLING iron sight classes, be they HM or Tactical, by target presentation, and multiple class/division infusion. The only way to increase participation and competition in certain classes is to simplify divisions or increase match participation.

Simplicity is the right answer here. Tactical Heavy Metal and all this other random stuff is just plain retarded. KISS. Open, Tactical, Limited, HM. That's it. If you have a LR-308 or M1A and want a scope on it, welcome to Tactical. Period.

All in all the matches have improved in stage design, target presentation, scoring, and fun level. The competition in all classes has improved, the use of innovative targets, and the use of fresh MD's and RM's has brought a new level of experience to each and every match.

Match quality has definitely gone through the roof in my 4 year break and must say that it's exciting to see the level of competition increase as well. I was able to cruise to some upper finishes in past matches, but now I HAVE to practice which is always fun.

Adding to what Scout454 was eluding to is some of the gamesmanship at IMGA matches. Shooters, it's not freakin' USPSA. I don't know how many times at FB3G we had to make this statement. No RO likes to penalize a shooter, so when you get one, ask about it, but if you're wrong then take it. I had to give a guy 2 procedurals on the bridge; he deserved/earned about 5-6, and wanted to argue over the 2 he got. In the end, it was simple. I pointed to the next shooter on the stage who was shooting, pointed at him while he was shooting, turned to the complainer and said, "You see what he's doing? You didn't do that! You got procedurals, he's not going to. It's that simple."

Other than that, I'm looking forward to shooting only 2-3 major 3G/MG matches this year. Concentrating on the pistol. In 2010 though, I'll probably have to shoot Tac-Irons/Limited since I just think it'll be fun. Just gotta figure out how to load the damn shotgun.

Rich

[itento]

A very good point, controversial but a good point, that was brought up was the DQing of a shooter for dropping an unloaded gun on a stage, We place loaded guns in barrels and boxes all the time and then proceed downrange of them without being DQed!!!! Why should a competitor be DQed for dropping an unloaded gun, the RO can notify them that they may need it later on in the stage, and the time required to stop and pick it up should be sufficient penalty. This penalty seems to be hold over from the "OH MY GOD, HE DROPPED HIS/HER GUN" (loaded) days. If the Host range has this as a rule then so be it, if not then we felt it should be addressed using common sense.

If this was from the FB3G, then I was probably involved and I thought I'd chime in since I've thought alot about this situation. First, the FB3G had a specific rule for dropped weapons:

2. Disqualifications:

2.1 Match Disqualification will result in complete disqualification from the match and the shooter will not be allowed to continue with the match. Shooter will not be eligible for prizes. Final decision will be with the Range Master.

2.3 A participant shall be disqualified from the Match for dropping a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or dropping a firearm while in the loading/unloading process.

2.4 A participant shall be disqualified for allowing the muzzle of his/her firearm to break the 180-degree Safety Plane (except while holstered, drawing or re-holstering.)

2.5 ALL disqualifications and reshoots will be issued by the Range Master.

After clearing all weapons (loaded rifle, and the pistol did have a loaded magazine inserted and an empty chamber when it dislodged from the competitors holster), the MD was called who DQed the individual. This was a pretty cut and dry situation.

Now, I think the question TRAPR and others bring up is; is this a good rule? Like I said before, I've thought about this and as a CRO, I think it makes sense. While we do ground weapons and move down range during a course of fire, grounded weapons at every match I've attended have been in a reasonably secure and safe direction. (I say reasonably because I've seen cases when a gun was tossed/thrown in the direction of a grounding barrel and not quite satisfied that definition.) A holstered pistol satisfies that definition (secure and pointed in a safe direction). A dropped weapon does not satisfy either condition. It could have been pointed in any direction on the way to the ground and could be pointed in any direction once on the ground. The other point, do you let the competitor pick up a weapon from the ground. Most disciplines require the RO to retrieve a dropped weapon. In the case of the stage at FB3G, the competitor already had a loaded rifle in his two hands. The last thing an RO wants to do is try and guess how a shooter will try to execute the retrieval when they are still trying to execute the stage. A good example was a Flordia shooter who recently shot himself in the stomach while tring to retrieve a fumbled Glock. Unsure if it discharged when it hit the ground or because it was grabbed near the ground. Anyway, the first thing a good RO should try to do is stop the action and stabilize the situation.

While too many rules can be cumbersome (5 books for USPSA) I think the level of rules we had for the FB3G to be adequate, yet detailed enough to make sure individual interpretation are kept to a minimum.

[el pres]

Trapr, I really enjoy the 600yd targets so leave them alone !!

I think Trapr wants to have a poll !!

Since I dont remember having this conversation with you guys on the way home, I'd have to add:

180 limits without scoring targets will discourage beginers. Two greenhorn 3gun friends have both timed

out but they still want to see who won between them. 180 is not that much time when your dropping shotshells,

trying to find the rifle target "in the scope", and are busy worrying about if you look like a complete ass doing this.

Any rifleman should be able to hit a "full" ipsc plate at 600 with a standard .223 carbine. I thought that the 500 and 600yd

flashers at RM3G were great, Instant confirmation. I'll have to say that I'm also against any "limitations", practical

shooting is a freestyle sport and thats a big part of the challenge and the draw. Trends and changes could sometimes

be for the better, or worse ?? You could argue the other extreame, SMM3G, where 85% of the rifle targets should be

shot with a pistol, although I love that too and try to visit that match as well !!

Ah hell !! See you guys at SMM3G, I'm coming to get my ass handed to me once again !!

[bigbrowndog]

I want to see your avatar on a poll!!!!!!

I actually liked the "flash" targets at RM3G, but some one had the opinion, and I could see their point that if the RO blinked you could easily miss the"flash" if the target fell over there is no doubt!!!

My mention of max time was also that 180 secs should be realistic and not arbitrary, if 220secs. is more likely then make it 220 sec.

I know when we use Max time on our SG match we "literally" (thats for you BRONCO) have a beginner shooter shoot the stage and then figure out the time needed. A MD doesn't want people to time out, but you also need to keep the stage moving, just try to keep the times doable.

Trapr

[ken hebert]

What type of scenario kills iron sights? (so i can avoid possibly setting it up at my matches)

[Jim Norman]

I'd like to add to my earlier post.

First I made an error of omission that needs immediate correction. THANK YOU for the review. That was very well thought out and written. Certainly not a spur of the moment thing.

Second. Limitations. We are effectively shooting a carbine, not a battle rifle. The practical range is probably as said above 400 or so yards. Yes, ther are shooters with AR platforms shooting 1000 yards. I don't think that is a realistic distance for most of us with even well built 20" AR and a 1-4 power scope. Through this type of stage in as a side match for precision rifle and I'll bring my 700 in a heartbeat. Want to shoot 600 yards, time for the M1A and a good scope for my old eyes.

I do like the 4MOA idea. I can probably see and hit a 4" target at 100 yards and a 16 incher at 400.

I'll repeat that a dropped gun after Make Ready and prior to Range is Clear should be a DQ.

Maximum time on a stage is needed if we have any hope of running a match on any type of schedule. But definitely count some sort of penalty, a Miss at the very least to allow for comparison between the rest of us as opposed to the Bruces of the world (66 seconds on the long range at FB with IRONS!)

So thank you again.

Jim

[J-Ho]

What type of scenario kills iron sights? (so i can avoid possibly setting it up at my matches)

One with too many old guys.

I don't think it's the scenario that kill iron sights. I think too many people don't think they can shoot iron sights well. Probably The same reason people put scopes on deer rifles here in Texas (100 yards is pretty far for deer).

Maybe a match director could offer a special prize to the high iron shooter? Free eye exam certificate maybe? hell I don't know, all I know is when I was first confronted with 400 and 500 yard target I thought there was no way I'd hit them. I had never shot that far. I was shooting a cheap little iron sighted AR and BAM, hit the 400 first shot. Try it out sometime, you might be surprised.

[el pres]

M-4 Carbine

Additional Media Mission

Deter, and if necessary, compel adversaries by enabling individuals and small units to engage targets with accurate, lethal, direct fire.

Entered Army Service

1997

Description and Specifications

A compact version of the M16A2 rifle, with a collapsible stock, a flat-top upper receiver accessory rail and a detachable handle/rear aperture site assembly. The M4 enables a soldier operating in close quarters to engage targets at extended range with accurate, lethal fire. It achieves more than 85 percent commonality with the M16A2 rifle and will replace all .45 caliber M3 submachine guns, selected M9 pistols, and M16 series rifles.

Caliber: 5.56 mm

Weight: 7.5 lbs (loaded weight with sling & one magazine)

Max. Effective Range: 600 m (area target) 500 m (point target)

Manufacturer

Colt Manufacturing (Hartford, CT)

Anybody shooting a 14" barrel ???

Edited December 31, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[Benelli Chick]

At RM3G, a dropped UNLOADED gun, is not a DQ. We did this because we had you shooting prone rifle with pistol in holster and while your holster should hold your gun well, I've seen guns come out of concealed carry holsters when you'r ewriggling around on the ground. We decided that since the RO's would have checked that it was completely empty, if it fell out while they were shooting rifle, the RO on the board just stayed next to it. When the shooter had abandoned his rifle in the appropriate place, he would have to go all the way back to get his pistol off the ground. Like Trapr said, built in penalty.

A loaded gun seems to me to be a different story. That's why it needs to be in the appropriate dump barrel or whatever so you don't go downrange of a loaded gun that is pointing at you. So, dropping a LOADED gun can be dangerous! Dropping an unloaded gun can just be bad for your gun! Yes, we need to treat all guns as if they are loaded. That's why the RO stays by the unloaded gun so no one kicks it, plays with it, whatever and can keep an eye on it if it decides to get up and run around. He also makes sure the retrieval is safe.

In '07, we had 4 or 5 people drop it on the stage we started the rule for. One of them was someone who told us it was a silly idea. No one will drop their pistol!

Just my .06!

Thanks for all the good ideas and comments!

Happy New Year!

Edited December 31, 2008 by Benelli Chick

[LChico]

Small thread drift!

I'm a school teacher and we're doing this Standards Based grading thing, that says a student can't get less than 50% on a major assignment. No zeros! We won't go into what I think of this, but suffice it to say that I feel that in some ways, it's that "we just want the students to feel good". Anyway, at Ft. Benning, I did really well for me on the long range rifle stage, but I wasn't the speediest by a long shot. I had one miss, and thus ended up with like 170. If everyone who had timed out etc had gotten 180, then I wouldn't have gotten very many points gain on that stage. Also, if the fastest time was 90 seconds (I know it was faster) then everyone who shot that stage would have gotten a 50% at least and half the match points for the stage!

It's standards based grading for shooters!

Now, back to more important thoughts!

Denise

Someone who "timed out" on the rifle stage at Ft Benning may have had 180 for their time, but they also should have had miss and failure to engage penalties added to it. The max "raw time" is 180. The max "time plus penalties" is 300. If you completed the stage in 170 and someone else timed out at 180, your score certainly should have been much better than the initial 10 seconds difference. And especially since we increased the penalties for misses on long range targets.

I don't see that as 'Standards Based' scoring.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

Edited December 31, 2008 by LChico

[Benelli Chick]

Totally Linda! You're so right! I was just saying if Ft. Benning had done it the way Trapr was originally saying, it wouldn't have been as great as the way the amazing statistician did score it!

I was using that as an example, not saying you did it that way! I was very happy with the way it works!

JJ says "go to bed" you're up too late!

Oh wait, you just got home and are too wired to go to bed!

Happy New Year!

[piper]

To Trapr,

Thank You for the excellent report.

I attend about 6 Major matches a year.

I will not be attending the 2009 RM3 gun, for many reasons. I have been at 3 of the last 4.

The First Year,I was there it was 300 yard + shots,and I did all of those, not fast But I Did hit them. IT WAS FUN.

Last year at 600 yards for the Bonus shots,I could hardly find them little lone hit them. IT WAS NOT FUN.

The 500 yard shots were difficult,as the only range that I can practise on is 200 yards and everything beyond that is a best guess.

The Point for me is, When the difficullty level increases to the point were I cannot hit the targets in Whatever time is required, I'll go do something else.

Number 2 reason for not going is the $1000 + to go, my sponser, expects me to come home in a good mood, not the way it was last year.

If the matches continue on the present course, I wish you the best, I will not be going .

I will go back to pistol only,for as long as I can, but they too seem to be on this,lets make the course technically difficult ( NOT FUN) course.

[uscbigdawg]

DC - I knew someone would bring the Army answer of 'area' target vs. 'point' targets. I'll say this. No one is saying that the rifle can't shoot that far. Like others have said, you can setup an AR to shoot to 1000. Heck, we shoot 600 yard steel in Sacramento any time we want. I shot Hawkeye every time in the Army ('cept that POS rifle I had at Ft. Sill) and that was 300 with irons. Heck, the Marines go much further than that. However for most folks, especially those that are able to afford 3-Gun (i.e. usually 30+ w/ diminishing eye sight) and for the REAL effective use of the rifle about 400 is where it taps out.

Now bonus targets...that's a whole other banana.

Rich

[kurtm]

Last I checked, all military qual. targets are HUGE compaired to the good old metric target and WAY biggerthan any flash target...so let,s not compare the mission statement to practical accuracy. If we want to go that route we should make sure all stages we shoot with rifles can be accomplished with an M4 and an Aim-point! KurtM