Schmidt and Bender Short Dot query

[tikboy]

Dear all,

I am presenly studying which optic would be good for me. I am presently using an Eotech for AR competitions. I do ok in CQB courses with targets from 5 to 100 yards. However, I start struggling in ranges farther than this. (150 to 300)

With the power set at 4x, how thick are the hash marks in the CQB reticle? Is there a site I can go to with a diagram of the thickness of this reticle? Would the hash marks cover a 6x6 inch target at say 200 yards? My only concern with the Short Dot is that the reticle may be too thick with the power set at 4x. Do you have thru the scope pics of the reticle on targets/ipsc board at 100, 200 and at 300? Would appreciate it very much if you can send me these

Due to my poor eyesight, I have always relied on red dots. I am presently choosing either to go the short dot route, Acog plus docter with a Matt Burkett mount or a Nightforce 2.5 to 10x NXS plus a MB mounted docter. I like having hash marks for holdovers so the Meopta Kdot is quite far down the list of options.

Any and all comments or suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

[t-payne]

Take a look at the Burris XTR 1-4. Its a very good scope and priced about 1/4 the short dot. Also take a look at the swarovski 1-6 haven't used one personally but seems nice

[Nick S]

Here is the dope for the CQB reticle.

Good luck.

Nick

[chizzle]

I just bought a Burris Euro 1.5-6 and love it. It doesn't have the reticle that you're talking about, but it is a nice piece of glass. Granted, it isn't a true 1x for the close stuff, but the combination of illuminated reticle, 1.5-6x, and 30mm tube made it a good choice for me. Good luck.

[gotm4]

The S&B is a great scope if you don't have to pay for it.

I'd buy a Swarovski 1-6x before a S&B short dot.

[Tom Freeman]

I have a Short Dot and love it.

I have it sighted in at 300 yards. One hash mark up is 200 yards. One down is a little low at 400, I just put the hash on the top of a 400 yard plate.

When stages go from close targets to far and back again its not much of an advantage as the dot is in the first focal plane and blocks out most targets between 250 and 350 yards.

I looked at a Swarovski 1-6 but didnt like the reticle.

I will take some pics this weekend (if it quits snowing) of how the crosshairs look on targets at different ranges.

The Burris looks like a good scope, but I havent looked through one yet.

[kellyn]

Having watched Mr. Horner rely on a Short Dot, I can assure you that the stadia lines are not too thick - and that it is an excellent optic. I, however, question the need to buy a Short Dot for 3 gun competition given the wide array of other possible and much less expensive choices. Plus Leupold, Burris and Trijicon all support the sport.

[tikboy]

Dear guys,

Thanks for all your comments guys. Please continue encouraging and discouraging me on the Short Dot. I saw a Meopta today, I like the red dot like aspect of it but still wished it had hashmarks.

[tikboy]

I have a Short Dot and love it.

I have it sighted in at 300 yards. One hash mark up is 200 yards. One down is a little low at 400, I just put the hash on the top of a 400 yard plate.

When stages go from close targets to far and back again its not much of an advantage as the dot is in the first focal plane and blocks out most targets between 250 and 350 yards.

I looked at a Swarovski 1-6 but didnt like the reticle.

I will take some pics this weekend (if it quits snowing) of how the crosshairs look on targets at different ranges.

The Burris looks like a good scope, but I havent looked through one yet.

Hi Tom

What is not much of an advantage? the red dot? Can the crosshair be seen with the red dot on?

[Cardinal]

I have a Short dot Gen 2 and I love it. For shorter ranges, I use low power and the dot. At longer ranges I turn the dot of and use the reticle. And the Mil reticle is very nice for holdovers and compensating for wind at those longer ranges.

The biggest disadventage (beside price which is high) is that the scope is more sensitive to head-placement than the Zeiss 1-4x20 ill. Victory.

[Tom Freeman]

Hi Tom

What is not much of an advantage? the red dot? Can the crosshair be seen with the red dot on?

When turned up to 4 power the dot is friggin huge and obscures a lot of what is behind the crosshair.

Most of the shooting around here is between 250 and 400 yards, I dont use the dot that much.

[tikboy]

Hi Tom

What is not much of an advantage? the red dot? Can the crosshair be seen with the red dot on?

When turned up to 4 power the dot is friggin huge and obscures a lot of what is behind the crosshair.

Most of the shooting around here is between 250 and 400 yards, I dont use the dot that much.

Hi Tom,

At 400 yards, would the crosshairs be too big to shoot IPSC boards with? Can you still see/shoot say, a 6x6 inch steel plate at these ranges?

Hi Cardinal,

Would you say that the Short Dot is not forgiving eye relief wise? is this true both at 1.1 power and at 4x? Is the Short Dot as fast as the aimpoint at hoser distances? I got the chance to shoot with a Millet DMR at a CQB stage, I found out that I had to close one eye while shooting. If I use both eyes, the scope view becomes a little dizzying. Does this happen with the Short Dot?

[Cardinal]

I've never really had a problem with eye relief. I meant its more sensitive up-down and left-right. But I can't really say its been a problem as long as one is mindful of it.

An Aimpoint is probably a little faster on hoser stages. But on the other hand, on longer ranges the SD is easier.

I shoot with both eyes open, and haven't had any problems. It currently sits on the shelf since I sold the gun I had it on.

[Tom Freeman]

At 400 yards, would the crosshairs be too big to shoot IPSC boards with? Can you still see/shoot say, a 6x6 inch steel plate at these ranges?

A 6 inch plate at 400 will most likely be hidden behing the post. An IPSC paper target would be much easier.

Its still snowing here and I havent had a chance to take any pics.

[Cardinal]

At 400 yards, would the crosshairs be too big to shoot IPSC boards with? Can you still see/shoot say, a 6x6 inch steel plate at these ranges?

A 6 inch plate at 400 will most likely be hidden behing the post. An IPSC paper target would be much easier.

Its still snowing here and I havent had a chance to take any pics.

a 6 inch plate at 400meters (not yards) covers approx 0.4 mils. The reticle isn't that thick so you should be able to see it. Of course with the dot on you wont, but why would one use that at such ranges? It designed for short range at the lower power settings.

[tikboy]

At 400 yards, would the crosshairs be too big to shoot IPSC boards with? Can you still see/shoot say, a 6x6 inch steel plate at these ranges?

A 6 inch plate at 400 will most likely be hidden behing the post. An IPSC paper target would be much easier.

Its still snowing here and I havent had a chance to take any pics.

a 6 inch plate at 400meters (not yards) covers approx 0.4 mils. The reticle isn't that thick so you should be able to see it. Of course with the dot on you wont, but why would one use that at such ranges? It designed for short range at the lower power settings.

I was able to shoot a rifle competition with targets as far as 250, 400 was sort of exaggerating it. Thanks so much for your comments. Have you looked into a Millet DMR? I found the field of view at 1x too constricted. Have you experienced this on the SD?

[Cardinal]

Have not seen a Millet, no. In Norway most IPSC rifle shooters tend to b in three general camps as far as optics go. First (low cost alternative) are Aimpoints (and a few Eotechs). Second are usually meopta, Trijicon or Aimpoints with a 3x magnifiers. 3 and high end choice are Zeiss V 1-4x. Swarovski Z6i might make some inroads here but its probably still too new.

I haven't had any problems with the FOV in the SD, but that may be just me.

[00bullitt]

The Short Dot is a nice optic but I absolutely hate front focal plane reticules in low power optics. The short dot could be a much better optic with the reticule in the rear focal plane. There will be a new optic on the market by March or April of 2009. Its made by US Optics and will have a reticule designed by Erik Lund(Bear1142). Currently the illumination in the prototype is not visible in bright sunlight but it is in the works. The reticle is a circle dot with a stadia tree below the dot with hash marks at 400,500,and 600. It is calibrated for the 69 SMK at 2800 but it also intersects well for the 55,75 and 77. USO glass is phenomenally clear. Their downfall in their low power SN4 line has always been their reticule choices only being available in the front focal plane.

The new RFP SN4s will be worth looking at. Erik will have his prototype at Fort Benning.

As for the new Swarovski Z6i.....I must say it is absolutely unreal. I never though glass could be that good. It is far superior to the S&B in my opinion for clarity.I bought one about a month ago after seeing the one Benelli2 had and can't believe how awesome it is. The shortcomings may be the reticule and the target knobs. The circle dot is extremely daytime visible in orange. The zeroing turret knobs do not have any numbers but do have hash marks and an arrow for zero. I made a label to wrap around the turret with my load specific marks and can dial it very quick up to 500 yards. I personally like a dead on hold as opposed to a holdover with a stadia tree. I use a 200 yard zero and know my appropriate holds out to 400. If I need to dial up I can.The illumination switch is very cool as well. It is a small switch that flips left for twilight and night settings and flips right for the daytime visibility setting. The switch settings have memory for each location.

And like Kelly said.....there are other excellent lower cost options than the S&B and Swarovski.

[Cardinal]

The Short Dot is a nice optic but I absolutely hate front focal plane reticules in low power optics. The short dot could be a much better optic with the reticule in the rear focal plane.

there is such a scope. Its called Short Dot 2. Its primarily designed for LE

Yes the Z6i looks interesting but the problem is that here in Norway its approx $600 more than the Zeiss V 1-4x....

[00bullitt]

Justy went to the S&B website and sure enough they have the Short Dot LE with the reticule in the rear focal plane.

That would be the ticket for sure. Locking calibrated turrets with a reticule in the rear focal plane.

With the reticule being in the rear focal plane...at 4x the flash dot would only cover 1.57" of the target as opposed to 5.9" with a reticule in the second focal plane

Link to the Short Dots on S&B's website

Edited December 1, 2008 by 00bullitt

[tikboy]

Justy went to the S&B website and sure enough they have the Short Dot LE with the reticule in the rear focal plane.

That would be the ticket for sure. Locking calibrated turrets with a reticule in the rear focal plane.

With the reticule being in the rear focal plane...at 4x the flash dot would only cover 1.57" of the target as opposed to 5.9" with a reticule in the second focal plane

Link to the Short Dots on S&B's website

Yes sir, I was also looking at the SD Zenith LE, I like the idea of a SD with a rear focal plane reticle too. Is there any plans of bringing this out with a reticle with hash marks?

[tikboy]

The Short Dot is a nice optic but I absolutely hate front focal plane reticules in low power optics. The short dot could be a much better optic with the reticule in the rear focal plane. There will be a new optic on the market by March or April of 2009. Its made by US Optics and will have a reticule designed by Erik Lund(Bear1142). Currently the illumination in the prototype is not visible in bright sunlight but it is in the works. The reticle is a circle dot with a stadia tree below the dot with hash marks at 400,500,and 600. It is calibrated for the 69 SMK at 2800 but it also intersects well for the 55,75 and 77. USO glass is phenomenally clear. Their downfall in their low power SN4 line has always been their reticule choices only being available in the front focal plane.

The new RFP SN4s will be worth looking at. Erik will have his prototype at Fort Benning.

As for the new Swarovski Z6i.....I must say it is absolutely unreal. I never though glass could be that good. It is far superior to the S&B in my opinion for clarity.I bought one about a month ago after seeing the one Benelli2 had and can't believe how awesome it is. The shortcomings may be the reticule and the target knobs. The circle dot is extremely daytime visible in orange. The zeroing turret knobs do not have any numbers but do have hash marks and an arrow for zero. I made a label to wrap around the turret with my load specific marks and can dial it very quick up to 500 yards. I personally like a dead on hold as opposed to a holdover with a stadia tree. I use a 200 yard zero and know my appropriate holds out to 400. If I need to dial up I can.The illumination switch is very cool as well. It is a small switch that flips left for twilight and night settings and flips right for the daytime visibility setting. The switch settings have memory for each location.

And like Kelly said.....there are other excellent lower cost options than the S&B and Swarovski.

The Swarovski Z6 is also an option. How does it compare to the SD in terms of close range/1x use? Is it also comparable to the Aimpoint? Does it have hash marks? How is the eye relief compared to the SD? If I get the illuminated #4 reticle, will this be visible in bright sunlight like the Aimpoint?

When will the US optics be available? Will it have the same dimensions/weight as the old SN4?

[00bullitt]

The Short Dot is a nice optic but I absolutely hate front focal plane reticules in low power optics. The short dot could be a much better optic with the reticule in the rear focal plane. There will be a new optic on the market by March or April of 2009. Its made by US Optics and will have a reticule designed by Erik Lund(Bear1142). Currently the illumination in the prototype is not visible in bright sunlight but it is in the works. The reticle is a circle dot with a stadia tree below the dot with hash marks at 400,500,and 600. It is calibrated for the 69 SMK at 2800 but it also intersects well for the 55,75 and 77. USO glass is phenomenally clear. Their downfall in their low power SN4 line has always been their reticule choices only being available in the front focal plane.

The new RFP SN4s will be worth looking at. Erik will have his prototype at Fort Benning.

As for the new Swarovski Z6i.....I must say it is absolutely unreal. I never though glass could be that good. It is far superior to the S&B in my opinion for clarity.I bought one about a month ago after seeing the one Benelli2 had and can't believe how awesome it is. The shortcomings may be the reticule and the target knobs. The circle dot is extremely daytime visible in orange. The zeroing turret knobs do not have any numbers but do have hash marks and an arrow for zero. I made a label to wrap around the turret with my load specific marks and can dial it very quick up to 500 yards. I personally like a dead on hold as opposed to a holdover with a stadia tree. I use a 200 yard zero and know my appropriate holds out to 400. If I need to dial up I can.The illumination switch is very cool as well. It is a small switch that flips left for twilight and night settings and flips right for the daytime visibility setting. The switch settings have memory for each location.

And like Kelly said.....there are other excellent lower cost options than the S&B and Swarovski.

The Swarovski Z6 is also an option. How does it compare to the SD in terms of close range/1x use? Is it also comparable to the Aimpoint? Does it have hash marks? How is the eye relief compared to the SD? If I get the illuminated #4 reticle, will this be visible in bright sunlight like the Aimpoint?

When will the US optics be available? Will it have the same dimensions/weight as the old SN4?

I like the Z6 better than the short dot personally. Its got better clarity and better FOV and eye relief. Yes....the circle dot reticule is daytime visible in bright sunlight. It is orange instead of red.No it does not have hash marks. The downside to the Z6 to me are the adjustment turrets. I wish they were locking turets like the S&B. I wouldn't mind having a stadia tree below the circle dot either. But the circle dot on 1x is very very fast.

The Rear Focal Plane USO will be the same size as the current SN4s. It will be commercially available around April of 2009.

[tikboy]

The Short Dot is a nice optic but I absolutely hate front focal plane reticules in low power optics. The short dot could be a much better optic with the reticule in the rear focal plane. There will be a new optic on the market by March or April of 2009. Its made by US Optics and will have a reticule designed by Erik Lund(Bear1142). Currently the illumination in the prototype is not visible in bright sunlight but it is in the works. The reticle is a circle dot with a stadia tree below the dot with hash marks at 400,500,and 600. It is calibrated for the 69 SMK at 2800 but it also intersects well for the 55,75 and 77. USO glass is phenomenally clear. Their downfall in their low power SN4 line has always been their reticule choices only being available in the front focal plane.

The new RFP SN4s will be worth looking at. Erik will have his prototype at Fort Benning.

As for the new Swarovski Z6i.....I must say it is absolutely unreal. I never though glass could be that good. It is far superior to the S&B in my opinion for clarity.I bought one about a month ago after seeing the one Benelli2 had and can't believe how awesome it is. The shortcomings may be the reticule and the target knobs. The circle dot is extremely daytime visible in orange. The zeroing turret knobs do not have any numbers but do have hash marks and an arrow for zero. I made a label to wrap around the turret with my load specific marks and can dial it very quick up to 500 yards. I personally like a dead on hold as opposed to a holdover with a stadia tree. I use a 200 yard zero and know my appropriate holds out to 400. If I need to dial up I can.The illumination switch is very cool as well. It is a small switch that flips left for twilight and night settings and flips right for the daytime visibility setting. The switch settings have memory for each location.

And like Kelly said.....there are other excellent lower cost options than the S&B and Swarovski.

The Swarovski Z6 is also an option. How does it compare to the SD in terms of close range/1x use? Is it also comparable to the Aimpoint? Does it have hash marks? How is the eye relief compared to the SD? If I get the illuminated #4 reticle, will this be visible in bright sunlight like the Aimpoint?

When will the US optics be available? Will it have the same dimensions/weight as the old SN4?

I like the Z6 better than the short dot personally. Its got better clarity and better FOV and eye relief. Yes....the circle dot reticule is daytime visible in bright sunlight. It is orange instead of red.No it does not have hash marks. The downside to the Z6 to me are the adjustment turrets. I wish they were locking turets like the S&B. I wouldn't mind having a stadia tree below the circle dot either. But the circle dot on 1x is very very fast.

The Rear Focal Plane USO will be the same size as the current SN4s. It will be commercially available around April of 2009.

Does the present SN4 have a daylight visible reticle?

How about the red dot in the middle on a Z6, can this be seen during daytime?

[tikboy]

Thank you all for answers and information. I have now narrowed down my choices to the 9767 SB Zenith Short Dot with the #7 reticle ( if it comes with clickable turrets), Swarovski Z6 with an illuminated 4 reticle and the Zeiss 1.1 - 4 Diavari with the illuminated 0 reticle. I think I will go with a second focal plane reticle this time.

I just have a few questions more.

1. Are all the red dots in these scopes visible in bright daylight like the Aimpoint?

2. Zeiss and Swarovski except the Short Dot have target knobs. So holdovers are needed? No clicakable turrets for elevation?

3. Is the Zenith Short Dot elevation knob clickable for different ranges or is it also target knobs? Does it come with locking turrets?

4. At lowest power, can they all be used like the aimpoint? How is the up/down, left/right forgiveness

5. I was looking at the FOV of the 3 scopes at SWFA, the info I got was that the Zeiss had a FOV of 108 - 30.75 inches, the swarovski had 127.5 - 20.4 inches while the Schmidt and Bender Short dot had only 36 - 9.2 inches . This is the Short Dot I was looking at http://www.swfa.com/pc-9240-284-schmidt-be...riflescope.aspx.

Did they get it wrong? If so, the Short Dot that I want has a smaller FOV than the Millet 90 - 23 inches ? Seems wrong.

Any chance of having a Zenith Short Dot with a CQB reticle anytime soon?

Again, thank you very much for your help.