Reshoot?

[rishii]

I was on the next stage from the surfer's squad, and the shooter in question asked me about it. just a little back ground on him, he is kinda new to practical shooting, but he's not new to shooting. he is also an avid cowboy shooter, and shot the subgun version of IPSC before moving here.

one thing he told me is SASS has a splatter rule, if you get hit by splatter, the clock is still running and you ether finish the stage or take the penalties. and he asked if uspsa has anything similar, which we don't, and he suggested maybe we should get one. he seen satisfied be the call that was given and we traded stories of pulling lead out with tweezers.

also if we gave re-shoots for spatter, I can imagine someone down the line, having a bad run, shoot a plate, fake getting hit and demand a re-shoot.

[Chris iliff]

Shouldn't this apply:

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another

external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of

fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course

of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing

either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the

event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such

interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

If you got smacked in the forehead with splatter, hard enough to cause bleeding, I would say that is an external influence and would cause and interference.

That's creative --- but I'd still have to say no. I'm thinking the external influences thing has to be something not in any way initiated by the shooter, i.e. wind knocking over a wall, dropping a popper, a deer running through the stage, etc.

From the original description it sounds more likely that the shooter hit the plate support (rack, post, stand?) than that he hit the plate; following the injury he finished the stage....

I agree with Nik, nothing external interfered. I would say that being smacked with a ricochet from another bay would be "external" though.

[tpcdvc]

I'm offering a re-shoot in this instance. I would offer it the moment I call range is clear. A COF should offer everyone the same challenges to overcome. So unless everyone gets fragged in the head it is not the same COF. Also, I can't say weather the frag was from the plate or the stand I'm watching the gun and the other RO is watching his feet.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm offering a re-shoot in this instance. I would offer it the moment I call range is clear. A COF should offer everyone the same challenges to overcome. So unless everyone gets fragged in the head it is not the same COF. Also, I can't say weather the frag was from the plate or the stand I'm watching the gun and the other RO is watching his feet.

O.K. --- so if a squall moves through and rains on a couple of competitors, do they get a re-shoot? They didn't get to shoot the same course of fire. If a competitor slips and falls -- is that a reshoot? If the range master orders bags applied to targets for the last squad of the day, should they all get a re-shoot when it dries up? If a competitor shoots down a popper with five rounds --- is that a reshoot? The popper might not have been properly adjusted....

As much as I sympathize with the shooter --- you just can't offer a re-shoot in this instance, unless you stop the shooter right there because you're worried about safety. If the shooter finishes the stage, consult the rulebook for guidance --- some of my questions are actually covered by the rulebook and provide a pretty good guideline for appropriate RO action that is fair not only to the shooter, but to the rest of the competitors as well....

[JKSNIPER]

Sorry Nik

Have to disagree with you ....theres a big difference between getting hit with some rain and getting hit with some lead.

"I'm offering a re-shoot in this instance. I would offer it the moment I call range is clear. A COF should offer everyone the same challenges to overcome. So unless everyone gets fragged in the head it is not the same COF. Also, I can't say weather the frag was from the plate or the stand I'm watching the gun and the other RO is watching his feet."

Agreed.

The shooter was externally influenced by being struck on the head by lead splatter coming from the vicinity of downrange.

JK

[bobert1]

I vote NO reshoot. It's just part of our game.

[tpcdvc]

I'm offering a re-shoot in this instance. I would offer it the moment I call range is clear. A COF should offer everyone the same challenges to overcome. So unless everyone gets fragged in the head it is not the same COF. Also, I can't say weather the frag was from the plate or the stand I'm watching the gun and the other RO is watching his feet.

O.K. --- so if a squall moves through and rains on a couple of competitors, do they get a re-shoot? They didn't get to shoot the same course of fire. If a competitor slips and falls -- is that a reshoot? If the range master orders bags applied to targets for the last squad of the day, should they all get a re-shoot when it dries up? If a competitor shoots down a popper with five rounds --- is that a reshoot? The popper might not have been properly adjusted....

As much as I sympathize with the shooter --- you just can't offer a re-shoot in this instance, unless you stop the shooter right there because you're worried about safety. If the shooter finishes the stage, consult the rulebook for guidance --- some of my questions are actually covered by the rulebook and provide a pretty good guideline for appropriate RO action that is fair not only to the shooter, but to the rest of the competitors as well....

Maybe. 2.3.6 (I understand that this rule if for the RM but it does show flexibility for weather conditions ect.... "OTHER CONDITIONS")

This is a judgement call and I'm offering a reshoot based on 8.6.4. Being fragged in the head with blood coming out would qualify as an "external influence" in my opinion. Now slipping and falling and moderate rain is common and is par for the course and I am not offering up the ridiculous. However, we are not talking about something that is all that common (happens way more to the folks standing around than it does to the shooter and most of the time does not draw blood). If the RM wants to tell me not to give reshoots for this before the match then fine. But I'm calling for a reshoot otherwise.

Plus if this was happening during this stage with any kind of regularity I would want to fix the problem and force mandatory reshoots or if that was not possible throw the stage out.

[JThompson]

It's a tuff call because the potential for abuse is great. Most of us wouldn't think about cheating, but there are at least some who would. I have a bad first part of the stage shoot a popper and flinch. How do we call it, do we have to see blood? Is a red mark sufficiant? What if the hit is below the belt... do we make them drop their pants?

I feel for the guy because I've been tagged so hard that I thought I'd been shot. I also took one in the hand, through a glove, which left my hand numb... IDK about this one... I don't like the potential for abuse, but I don't like seeing a shooter get screwed either. In the end, for me, it's kind of like the weather. Some matches the early squad gets perfect weather and the later squads are up to their ass in water.... them's the breaks.

Hard one to decide....

JT

Edited November 28, 2008 by JThompson

[tpcdvc]

Also, I remember at the 07 limited nats when our friends at shooting USA decided to go up in the police helicopter to get some film from up above,.......... there were quite a few reshoots after the chopper totally broke the concentration of shooters during the COF. Being fragged is way worse than that IMO.

[Nik Habicht]

Sorry Nik

Have to disagree with you ....theres a big difference between getting hit with some rain and getting hit with some lead.

"I'm offering a re-shoot in this instance. I would offer it the moment I call range is clear. A COF should offer everyone the same challenges to overcome. So unless everyone gets fragged in the head it is not the same COF. Also, I can't say weather the frag was from the plate or the stand I'm watching the gun and the other RO is watching his feet."

Agreed.

The shooter was externally influenced by being struck on the head by lead splatter coming from the vicinity of downrange.

JK

John,

please tell me how (got a rule?) you can offer a reshoot, for anything other than immediately stopping the competitor for safety reasons. It's not about being a nice guy to the shooter who got fragged, it's about maintaining competitive equity for everyone. We don't offer reshoots when people slip and fall if they maintain muzzle discipline, we don't offer reshoots when people run into props --- this situation may not be any different.

[Nik Habicht]

Maybe. 2.3.6 (I understand that this rule if for the RM but it does show flexibility for weather conditions ect.... "OTHER CONDITIONS")

Nope --- 2.3.6 covers suspending all shooting until weather conditions improve, to keep us from playing in a lightning storm or tornado. And you know some of us would want to...

This is a judgement call and I'm offering a reshoot based on 8.6.4. Being fragged in the head with blood coming out would qualify as an "external influence" in my opinion. Now slipping and falling and moderate rain is common and is par for the course and I am not offering up the ridiculous. However, we are not talking about something that is all that common (happens way more to the folks standing around than it does to the shooter and most of the time does not draw blood). If the RM wants to tell me not to give reshoots for this before the match then fine. But I'm calling for a reshoot otherwise.

I might have to arbitrate that call. Seriously --- slipping and falling isn't that common, I see maybe one instance a year, unless I'm at a particular mudbowl of a match. My point though is that if it's in any way shooter induced, there's not a rule in the book that allows for a reshoot to be nice. The work around would be to immediately stop the shooter --- if you can articulate a safety concern, then remedy the concern and require a reshoot.

Plus if this was happening during this stage with any kind of regularity I would want to fix the problem and force mandatory reshoots or if that was not possible throw the stage out.

Of course you would --- but that's apparently not the case here.....

[Nik Habicht]

Last thought for those of you calling for a reshoot: Does your call change depending on where in the stage it occurs? In other words, if the shooter's last shot is at the plate, he knocks it down and takes a frag: does that change your call? If the shooter's engaging a plate rack and finishes before you can get the word STOP out --- would you still insist on a reshoot?

[tpcdvc]

Last thought for those of you calling for a reshoot: Does your call change depending on where in the stage it occurs? In other words, if the shooter's last shot is at the plate, he knocks it down and takes a frag: does that change your call? If the shooter's engaging a plate rack and finishes before you can get the word STOP out --- would you still insist on a reshoot?

No. but I wouldn't call for a reshoot if after the last shot was fired and a target fell to the ground either. It wouldn't affect the shooters ability to shoot the course at that point. Just like if you got fragged on the last shot.

[tpcdvc]

Maybe. 2.3.6 (I understand that this rule if for the RM but it does show flexibility for weather conditions ect.... "OTHER CONDITIONS")

Nope --- 2.3.6 covers suspending all shooting until weather conditions improve, to keep us from playing in a lightning storm or tornado. And you know some of us would want to...

This is a judgement call and I'm offering a reshoot based on 8.6.4. Being fragged in the head with blood coming out would qualify as an "external influence" in my opinion. Now slipping and falling and moderate rain is common and is par for the course and I am not offering up the ridiculous. However, we are not talking about something that is all that common (happens way more to the folks standing around than it does to the shooter and most of the time does not draw blood). If the RM wants to tell me not to give reshoots for this before the match then fine. But I'm calling for a reshoot otherwise.

I might have to arbitrate that call. Seriously --- slipping and falling isn't that common, I see maybe one instance a year, unless I'm at a particular mudbowl of a match. My point though is that if it's in any way shooter induced, there's not a rule in the book that allows for a reshoot to be nice. The work around would be to immediately stop the shooter --- if you can articulate a safety concern, then remedy the concern and require a reshoot.

Plus if this was happening during this stage with any kind of regularity I would want to fix the problem and force mandatory reshoots or if that was not possible throw the stage out.

Of course you would --- but that's apparently not the case here.....

I don't think you can say a fragg is shooter induced. Maybe the steel is pitted badly or at a wrong angle and you can't even say for sure it didn't come from another bay. Last year I got nailed pretty hard when we were reading the walk through.

The only reason I stated 2.3.6 was to show that we do under certain conditions take weather and "other" things into account when running a match...............even helicopters.

[Nik Habicht]

Maybe the steel is pitted badly or at a wrong angle

Those are problems that should have been solved by the RO/CRO/RM prior to first shot. If the steel's unsafe (condition or set-up) it needs to be addressed --- even at a club match, preferably during set-up, certainly by the first squad on the stage with MD/RM consultation/approval.

and you can't even say for sure it didn't come from another bay. Last year I got nailed pretty hard when we were reading the walk through.

And I don't need to determine exactly where it came from. Either it's a safety concern --- stop the shooter, remedy the situation, reshoot if appropriate --- or it's not. If it's not, there's not a rule to hang your re-shoot on. Stuff happens in this game, shooters manage to either recover or learn from the experience.....

[Chris iliff]

Sorry Nik

Have to disagree with you ....theres a big difference between getting hit with some rain and getting hit with some lead.

"I'm offering a re-shoot in this instance. I would offer it the moment I call range is clear. A COF should offer everyone the same challenges to overcome. So unless everyone gets fragged in the head it is not the same COF. Also, I can't say weather the frag was from the plate or the stand I'm watching the gun and the other RO is watching his feet."

Agreed.

The shooter was externally influenced by being struck on the head by lead splatter coming from the vicinity of downrange.

JK

John,

please tell me how (got a rule?) you can offer a reshoot, for anything other than immediately stopping the competitor for safety reasons. It's not about being a nice guy to the shooter who got fragged, it's about maintaining competitive equity for everyone. We don't offer reshoots when people slip and fall if they maintain muzzle discipline, we don't offer reshoots when people run into props --- this situation may not be any different.

You are right on this Nik. There is no rule. When we have these soft interpretations it waters down the whole sport IMO. I would feel bad for the guy and try to be as empathetic as possible, but no reshoot.

[tpcdvc]

Sorry Nik

Have to disagree with you ....theres a big difference between getting hit with some rain and getting hit with some lead.

"I'm offering a re-shoot in this instance. I would offer it the moment I call range is clear. A COF should offer everyone the same challenges to overcome. So unless everyone gets fragged in the head it is not the same COF. Also, I can't say weather the frag was from the plate or the stand I'm watching the gun and the other RO is watching his feet."

Agreed.

The shooter was externally influenced by being struck on the head by lead splatter coming from the vicinity of downrange.

JK

John,

please tell me how (got a rule?) you can offer a reshoot, for anything other than immediately stopping the competitor for safety reasons. It's not about being a nice guy to the shooter who got fragged, it's about maintaining competitive equity for everyone. We don't offer reshoots when people slip and fall if they maintain muzzle discipline, we don't offer reshoots when people run into props --- this situation may not be any different.

You are right on this Nik. There is no rule. When we have these soft interpretations it waters down the whole sport IMO. I would feel bad for the guy and try to be as empathetic as possible, but no reshoot.

You simply can not exclude rule 8.6.4 from this. In order to do that you would first you have to come to the conclusion that a frag can never be an external influence. Well it certainly is an "external influence" if it came from another bay. And you simply cannot say with absolution that it did or didn't come from another bay. So you rule on the side of the shooter. You can always turn down the offer if you think the RO is being too soft and watering down the rules and bringing the whole sport down :roflol: WOW.

[JKSNIPER]

Getting hit with "splatter " or "frag" IS an unusual occurance and IS an external influence and the RO still has discretion as to offering reshoot or not ( I disagree with this and would like to see it changed to "Will" offer a reshoot)

I don't see where anyone would say its not an external influence even if the splatter/frag came from a target he fired on himself its still an external influence.

Agreed that if it happens and its evident to the RO (IMHO) the RO should stop the shooter to make sure hes ok and to see if theres something that caused this to happen so the condition can be corrected so it does not happen again.

If getting hit with splatter or frag is considered normal at the range/match where someone shoots then I respectfully suggest that perhaps that range/club needs to redesign their COF or buy new steel or do someting to stop the splatter from striking competitors and possibly spectators.

So far its all fun and games to see a guy with a nasty welt or a boo-boo but it could just as easily be much more serious.

Everyone here is worried about keeping their sport alive in current atmosphere imagine trying to do so when you've had a competitor taken to the E.R. and a club member is heard on TV saying that frag or splatter is a normal occurence and the shooters are expected to "suck it up" and keep shooting.

Might as well take out the checkbook now and let that guy's family fill in the number 'cos its gonna have a LOT of zeros behind it.

In a sniper competition a while back there was a COF that required a handgun. One of the competitors was unable to bring his duty weapon so he borrowed a rig and weapon from a fellow competitor for the handgun portion.

The weapon was a squeeze cocker H&K P-7 that this person was totally unfamiliar with.

He accidentally shot himself in the leg while holstering.

He gave a little hop and then CONTINUED THROUGH THE COF.

It wasn't until later in the COF that an S.F. soldier who was there finally said "Is someone going to stop this guy before he bleeds to death?" that people's brains turned on and they stopped him and called for an ambulance.

He was leaving litle pools of blood everywhere he stopped to shoot.

Most of the guys saw it happen but they just did not realize the guy shot himself because he just gave the little hop and continued. A couple were heard to say "I THOUGHT I saw him do that but I wasn't sure."

There was a lot of investigation and stuff and the org hosting the event was very concerned about the potential for lawsuit and the even moved a couple years later. No more handgun portions. (hee hee)

I understand that an A.D. GSW is a little different from splatter but they are related to each other by a common thread of safety to the competitors and the shooter himself.

RO's bear the burden if the splatter hurts/wounds a shooter, they are aware that the shooter was injured, and they do NOTHING to find out what caused it and just run the next shooter through.

Ro's have a responsibility to the shooters that follow as well as the shooter that gets an Owwwie.

If that results in a reshoot then oh well.

There is steel that has a rubber/polymer coating that reduces the potential for splatter/splashback/frag.

JK

[Barrettone]

Nik,

I would treat it just as if I had bumped the shooter. It was said that he paused his shooting and rubbed his forehead where the frag impacted. That was PROOF in my book, that he was interfered with. I would allow him to finish, unless there was a LARGE pause in his shooting (if he appeared to be severely injured, I would issue the STOP command). Since there was also the appearance of blood (noticed after-the-fact), it lends creedance to calling interference. I would not show the time or score him until he made his decision on getting the reshoot FIRST. That is the grounds I would use for offerring a reshoot WITHOUT stopping him first. This is a good disussion and a tough JUDGEMENT CALL. As RO's we often have to make such decisions on-the-fly, and IMO, giving the option of a reshoot is the right call and supports the "spirit of the sport". If the guy is "taking a flop" to get a reshoot, then that is another JUDGEMENT CALL, and should be made according to the totality of the circumstances. Remember, we weren't there, and I am making my call simply based on the information provided. I would need to obviously SEE IT first to make the call for sure...it is easy to be hypothetical over the internet.

YMMV,

Jeff

Edited November 29, 2008 by Barrettone

[Flexmoney]

I agree with Jeff. I'd have to be there, but if the shooter took a whack that stymied them for a moment, I'd let them finish and then see about offering the reshoot.

The rule here...gives the judgment to the RO.

The occasional frag....nah. The shooter has tweety-birds circling around their head...yeah.

[George Jones]

In a sniper competition a while back there was a COF that required a handgun. One of the competitors was unable to bring his duty weapon so he borrowed a rig and weapon from a fellow competitor for the handgun portion.

The weapon was a squeeze cocker H&K P-7 that this person was totally unfamiliar with.

He accidentally shot himself in the leg while holstering.

He gave a little hop and then CONTINUED THROUGH THE COF.

JK

And he wasn't stopped and DQd as soon as it happened? Now there's a liability issue for that match to consider.

[Jim Norman]

Nik,

I would treat it just as if I had bumped the shooter. It was said that he paused his shooting and rubbed his forehead where the frag impacted. That was PROOF in my book, that he was interfered with. I would allow him to finish, unless there was a LARGE pause in his shooting (if he appeared to be severely injured, I would issue the STOP command). Since there was also the appearance of blood (noticed after-the-fact), it lends creedance to calling interference. I would not show the time or score him until he made his decision on getting the reshoot FIRST. That is the grounds I would use for offerring a reshoot WITHOUT stopping him first. This is a good disussion and a tough JUDGEMENT CALL. As RO's we often have to make such decisions on-the-fly, and IMO, giving the option of a reshoot is the right call and supports the "spirit of the sport". If the guy is "taking a flop" to get a reshoot, then that is another JUDGEMENT CALL, and should be made according to the totality of the circumstances. Remember, we weren't there, and I am making my call simply based on the information provided. I would need to obviously SEE IT first to make the call for sure...it is easy to be hypothetical over the internet.

YMMV,

Jeff

If I get stung by a bee, but continue on, do I get a reshoot? What about a mosquito?

You stop, you get scored as shot, you finish you get scored as shot, you get stopped for an invalid or in some cases a valid reason, you get a reshoot. I am sorry, but no reshoot. Too much room here for abuse.

As for rain, can you see the targets? If so it is not raining too hard to keep shooting. Can you still negotiate the COF without swimming? Keep shooting.

Unless there is lightning, tornadoes warnings, OK, we can take cover. High wind? Are the walls standing and the targets remaining in place? Shoot, Walls airborne? Well i supose we have to stop and at least rebuild the COF and nail it down better.

Jim