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If you are shooting two guns and get DQ'd


Cy Soto

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Hi Folks,

The answer to this question is probably very obvious but I would like to know if it has ever been an issue...

Let's say that a participant is shooting a match with his/her regular gun and he paid to shoot the classifier with gun number two.

Before he is able to shoot the classifier he is DQ'd. Would he still be able to shoot the classifier with the second gun or not?

Thanks!

-Cy

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Hi Folks,

The answer to this question is probably very obvious but I would like to know if it has ever been an issue...

Let's say that a participant is shooting a match with his/her regular gun and he paid to shoot the classifier with gun number two.

Before he is able to shoot the classifier he is DQ'd. Would he still be able to shoot the classifier with the second gun or not?

Thanks!

-Cy

Hello Cy, I don't think it was the gun that got DQ'd.

Stay safe,

A.T.

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If you had already shot with the first gun and DQed with the second your first score would stand. Since you DQ with your first you don't get a second bite at the apple. Once you have DQed you are done for the day.

Edited by JThompson
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10.3.1

A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in

that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

10.3.5

Scores for a competitor who has completed a “pre-match” or main

match without a match disqualification will not be affected by a match

disqualification received later while that competitor is participating in

a Shoot-Off or other side match.

Just in case you wanted to see the rulings...

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10.3.1

A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in

that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

10.3.5

Scores for a competitor who has completed a “pre-match” or main

match without a match disqualification will not be affected by a match

disqualification received later while that competitor is participating in

a Shoot-Off or other side match.

Just in case you wanted to see the rulings...

JT,

I'm going off memory here, but I was under the impression that if you DQ, your classifier score is not entered/counted even though the classifier was shot prior to the DQ.

I don't think shooting a classifier a second time in a different division would be considered a shoot-off or side match...it's the same match, just a different division.

Since the DQ was in the main match the competitior is done for the day and can't shoot the classifier in a different division since it's still the same match. R,

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10.3.1

A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in

that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

10.3.5

Scores for a competitor who has completed a “pre-match” or main

match without a match disqualification will not be affected by a match

disqualification received later while that competitor is participating in

a Shoot-Off or other side match.

Just in case you wanted to see the rulings...

JT,

I'm going off memory here, but I was under the impression that if you DQ, your classifier score is not entered/counted even though the classifier was shot prior to the DQ.

I don't think shooting a classifier a second time in a different division would be considered a shoot-off or side match...it's the same match, just a different division.

Since the DQ was in the main match the competitior is done for the day and can't shoot the classifier in a different division since it's still the same match. R,

Perhaps you should read what I wrote again G-Man. ;)

EDIT Because Nik said it much better below.

Edited by JThompson
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G,

to put this in the three gun arena --- note three, not multi --- if you finish the rifle and pistol stages and then DQ on shotgun, your rifle and pistol scores stand, since they were completed. (In USPSA 3 gun, you effectively finished 2 out of 3 matches.) Shotgun shows a dq, as that's the match in question.....

In Cy's case --- the shooter is done for the day, since the infraction happened during the first run. Had the shooter completed his first entry, and then dq'd on any stage of his second entry, the first would stand. Production match --- complete; Limited match --- DQ, for example. Now, if the shooter is alternating between guns on stages, then any DQ wipes out both matches.....

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That begs another question... I always thought if you DQ you are done shooting for that day. So... A guy DQs on shotgun, but has not shot rifle yet... I thought they would not be allowed to shoot rifle having DQed.

I have not ROed any three gun stuff, so enlighten me....

Edited by JThompson
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10.3.1

A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity during an USPSA match will be disqualified from that match,

and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining courses of fire in

that match regardless of the schedule or physical layout of the match.

10.3.5

Scores for a competitor who has completed a “pre-match” or main

match without a match disqualification will not be affected by a match

disqualification received later while that competitor is participating in

a Shoot-Off or other side match.

Just in case you wanted to see the rulings...

JT,

I'm going off memory here, but I was under the impression that if you DQ, your classifier score is not entered/counted even though the classifier was shot prior to the DQ.

I don't think shooting a classifier a second time in a different division would be considered a shoot-off or side match...it's the same match, just a different division.

Since the DQ was in the main match the competitior is done for the day and can't shoot the classifier in a different division since it's still the same match. R,

Perhaps you should read what I wrote again G-Man. ;)

EDIT Because Nik said it much better below.

JT,

I read what you wrote in your first post, which made complete sense and meant to direct my comment to the second one and should have been more clear. I don't think the second rule you cited applies in this case and that had me scratching my head a bit.

Since we're not talking 3-gun, it seems pretty clear...done for the day, no classifier entered (if it was shot before the DQ), no chance to shoot the classifier in another division, time to start taping and setting steel :P

Edited by G-ManBart
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Bart,

you're pretty close but:

Level one matches may now allow reentries. If the reentry is shot at the same time, you are correct, DQ, no classifier scores sent in, no further stages attempted.

If the match offers multiple shooting sessions however or runs with open squadding, and a competitor finishes the match in one division, and then DQs with the second entry, the first (completed) match would stand for score, with the classifier being sent in.....

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Bart,

you're pretty close but:

Level one matches may now allow reentries. If the reentry is shot at the same time, you are correct, DQ, no classifier scores sent in, no further stages attempted.

If the match offers multiple shooting sessions however or runs with open squadding, and a competitor finishes the match in one division, and then DQs with the second entry, the first (completed) match would stand for score, with the classifier being sent in.....

Nik,

There wasn't any mention of open squadding or multiple sessions etc, so it doesn't seem that any of that would apply....I think we're just making this more complicated than it needs to be....hard to imagine, I know :P

From the description this sounds like the common scenario where someone pays the extra $3 to shoot the classifier in a second division, shoots the match and when they get the classifier, they shoot it with the main gun and then with the second gun. If they DQ at any time during that match, they're done, no scores are submitted and they can't shoot the classifier with the second gun if they haven't already done so.

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Bart,

you're pretty close but:

Level one matches may now allow reentries. If the reentry is shot at the same time, you are correct, DQ, no classifier scores sent in, no further stages attempted.

If the match offers multiple shooting sessions however or runs with open squadding, and a competitor finishes the match in one division, and then DQs with the second entry, the first (completed) match would stand for score, with the classifier being sent in.....

Nik,

There wasn't any mention of open squadding or multiple sessions etc, so it doesn't seem that any of that would apply....I think we're just making this more complicated than it needs to be....hard to imagine, I know :P

From the description this sounds like the common scenario where someone pays the extra $3 to shoot the classifier in a second division, shoots the match and when they get the classifier, they shoot it with the main gun and then with the second gun. If they DQ at any time during that match, they're done, no scores are submitted and they can't shoot the classifier with the second gun if they haven't already done so.

NO. IF they were done, if the first classifier was the last stage, and then they shot the second gun and DQed... the first would stand. If they had not yet completed a match and were alternating then you are right... DQ and no match scores. The key here is whether they completed a match with any gun prior to DQ. It matters not whether it was a the pistol portions, shotgun, whatever... If they have completed one then it stands. For this purpose each part of a three gun is considered it's own match.

Hope this helps...

JT

Edited by JThompson
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From the description this sounds like the common scenario where someone pays the extra $3 to shoot the classifier in a second division, shoots the match and when they get the classifier, they shoot it with the main gun and then with the second gun. If they DQ at any time during that match, they're done, no scores are submitted and they can't shoot the classifier with the second gun if they haven't already done so.

Most likely you're correct. But, just in case this thread gets read a year from now, by someone in a place where they do things differently (Western Pa. section for example), I thought it important to get the full scope of factors to be considered out there.....

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Bart,

you're pretty close but:

Level one matches may now allow reentries. If the reentry is shot at the same time, you are correct, DQ, no classifier scores sent in, no further stages attempted.

If the match offers multiple shooting sessions however or runs with open squadding, and a competitor finishes the match in one division, and then DQs with the second entry, the first (completed) match would stand for score, with the classifier being sent in.....

Nik,

There wasn't any mention of open squadding or multiple sessions etc, so it doesn't seem that any of that would apply....I think we're just making this more complicated than it needs to be....hard to imagine, I know :P

From the description this sounds like the common scenario where someone pays the extra $3 to shoot the classifier in a second division, shoots the match and when they get the classifier, they shoot it with the main gun and then with the second gun. If they DQ at any time during that match, they're done, no scores are submitted and they can't shoot the classifier with the second gun if they haven't already done so.

NO. IF they were done, if the first classifier was the last stage, and then they shot the second gun and DQed... the first would stand. If they had not yet completed a match and were alternating then you are right... DQ and no match scores. The key here is whether they completed a match with any gun prior to DQ. It matters not whether it was a the pistol portions, shotgun, whatever... If they have completed one then it stands. For this purpose each part of a three gun is considered it's own match.

Hope this helps...

JT

His "match" is with the main gun. The classifier should be shot first with the main gun, although I can't recall if anything spells that out in the rules. If he DQ's during his "match" he's done for the day, no scores get posted, he doesn't get to shoot the classifer with the second gun, etc. Shooting a classifier a second time in another division isn't exactly what I'd call shooting a "match"....otherwise he would have said he was shooting the match twice, in two divisions.

If it happens that the classifier is the last stage and he's completed his match and is then going to shoot the classifier a second time in another division and DQ's at that point, sure, the first classifier would count since he's completed the "match" already.

I'm not sure why we're adding stuff to this about 3-gun, alternating guns, etc since that wasn't what the question was, but so long is everyone's happy I guess it's not a big deal. R,

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