Tales from the chrono

[double_pedro]

If I chrono at say 160, then my HF's are reduced by a factor of 0.9696 (= 160/165). This could easily be built into EZ WIN Score. Seems like this would be worthwhile considering, if it hasn't already been considered. My $0.02.

Why cheat yourself for A hits?

Good point. The weighting certainly could be tweaked, but the basic idea is to avoid the all or nothing penalty associated with dropping below major (or worse minor) - especially if inadequate efforts are being made to ensure the acccuracy of the chronograph in use. For example, take the current major and minor scoring for B, C, D and linearly interpolate between them for dropping below major. Extrapolate this for dropping below minor. The only thing left is to decide what to do for sub-minor A hits - perhaps use the PF weighting as originally proposed above.

What do you guys think....write it up and send to Sedro Woolley?

Edited November 18, 2008 by double_pedro

[XRe]

What do you guys think....write it up and send to Sedro Woolley?

Its interesting - but honestly, I think its a relatively complex (ie, while it could be figured by hand, it really requires a computer to figure your own scores accurately) workaround to a problem that still exists (that is - the chrono is still uncalibrated, and could still screw people, either way).

My experience has been that temperature has the biggest effect on my loads. Density altitude has an effect, but it doesn't seem to be pronounced at the distances we're dealing with. At A2, my loads showed the same behavior they'd shown at home - which was somewhat erratic, but still major.

I appreciate the need to measure power, and I definitely don't argue with that. It really seems like we could use a better way, though...

[larry cazes]

In the end, chrono stations only catch the unlikely or unfortunate - they don't stop any cheating.

Dave, this seems just a bit harsh, dont ya think? I worked designing and manufacturing measurement systems using optical sensors for quite a few years and yes we could use a calibration step to clean things up a bit. Truth is, though, that as imperfect as the current system is it still has some worth. Seems to me that the CEDs used at most of the matches I have been to generally seem to catch the same folks minor year after year. Coincidence ? No Worth ?

[ChuckS]

I just want to know why everybody thinks the chrono at HOME is correct?

[XRe]

In the end, chrono stations only catch the unlikely or unfortunate - they don't stop any cheating.

Dave, this seems just a bit harsh, dont ya think?

No, I don't think. (except that "unlikely" should've read "unlucky"... damn spell check anyway...). The way chrono is generally operated (see recent threads), an unsavory competitor can cheat the chrono all day long - the only ones who get "caught" are the ones who are borderline and simply don't have quite enough margin of safety to match the weather conditions and tolerances of the particular chrono(s) in use.

Seems to me that the CEDs used at most of the matches I have been to generally seem to catch the same folks minor year after year. Coincidence ? No Worth ?

I guess I left out one group... there's seemingly a group of folks who don't seem to care enough to insure quality and power level of their ammo... They do tend to get "caught" - but its generally in that 163-164.9 range - so add "careless" to the list of folks who don't intend to go minor...

Let me flip it around on you - have you ever seen a chrono station actually catch a true cheater? I mean someone claiming major but, say, running around 140 PF or something like that? I have yet to see it in 15 years of USPSA shooting...

[Alan Meek]

I just want to know why everybody thinks the chrono at HOME is correct?

Mine is, isn't yours

Just Kidding, actually you have a very valid point.

[XRe]

I just want to know why everybody thinks the chrono at HOME is correct?

Define "correct"?? Without a known, repeatable method to measure the device, all and none of them are correct at the same time

Given that CED w/ infrared seems to be the "gold standard" these days (if you figure that what's in use at the Nationals and many of the Area level matches is the "gold standard"), it would kind of make sense to get one of those - and then hope that you've got one in the slow to middle range of the tolerances....

[larry cazes]

Let me flip it around on you - have you ever seen a chrono station actually catch a true cheater? I mean someone claiming major but, say, running around 140 PF or something like that? I have yet to see it in 15 years of USPSA shooting...

Yup. I have, more than once. Most folks realize that the system in place has limitations and they build enough margin into their loads to not have to worry about it. Only time my wife or I have ever come close to going minor is at the 2005 Norcal Sectional when I intentionally loaded her 45acp ammo to 168pf. She just barely squeaked by and I just barely had a ride home that night!

[uscbigdawg]

Have to agree with Dave. It doesn't stop the cheaters. Heck we had a guy at a MG Nat's that was running 2 different uppers and didn't get caught 'til the last day. I've seen GM's put 11mm base pads on 170mm mags to get an extra 1-2 rounds for a stage and a number of other incidents.

I think the process at Area 2 was as good as it was going to get. Random pull of match ammo and random checks of mags. Too, I leave it to the stage RO's to check equipment position.

It's tough...period, but given that we know what the chrono setup is at these large matches (Nationals and Area matches) then it is on us to attempt to get info on how these run. Yeah I only had a 12fps change in my velocity at home vs. at Area 2, but I also chrono'ed at 172. I do this not for a cushion, but it does have its luxuries (i.e. not bladerunning at the chrono).

Rich

[boz1911]

I just want to know why everybody thinks the chrono at HOME is correct?

My CED chrono has basically checked dead on when compared to all major matches I shot in 2007 and 2008, with the exception of the Nationals. Since I shoot open, and extra powder doesn't really change much, I have bumped my standard load, so I will never be close again...

[ap38]

I have a prochrono pal. It has been dead on for each load that I have had chronographed at a major match. Guess I got lucky with that one.

[Bear23]

It seemed their chrono was running consistently 3-4 pf under most shooters ammo. I had shot the same load as nats and had chronoed and weighed several of my bullets prior to nats and A2. i was running consistently 173PF. at A2 i was 170.

[Viggen]

Let me flip it around on you - have you ever seen a chrono station actually catch a true cheater? I mean someone claiming major but, say, running around 140 PF or something like that? I have yet to see it in 15 years of USPSA shooting...

Yup. I have, more than once. Most folks realize that the system in place has limitations and they build enough margin into their loads to not have to worry about it. Only time my wife or I have ever come close to going minor is at the 2005 Norcal Sectional when I intentionally loaded her 45acp ammo to 168pf. She just barely squeaked by and I just barely had a ride home that night!

Yep, as a matter of fact it happened at this A2.

A DQ for some real bright guy trying to run special ammo for chrono loads - intentionally. The staff noticed, he was rewarded with a DQ.

[XRe]

Random pull of match ammo and random checks of mags.

How is "put 8 rounds in this bag, please, everyone... at the same time..." random at all? Per the last thread on the subject, it could be done a bit more random than that... Maybe being that you guys were first up at the chrono, you got it a tad more random than we did...

ETA - and they were checking mags? Where? I didn't see/hear of anyone getting checked...

Edited November 18, 2008 by XRe

[XRe]

Yep, as a matter of fact it happened at this A2.

A DQ for some real bright guy trying to run special ammo for chrono loads - intentionally. The staff noticed, he was rewarded with a DQ.

Who tried to be a douche at A2? Word on that kind of thing deserves to get out

I've heard all kinds of "rumors" about "so-and-so" cheating at the chrono, and such - but this is the first time I've actually heard of someone being busted. Good on the match staff for that one...

[zhunter]

I just want to know why everybody thinks the chrono at HOME is correct?

Great question. I have on several occasions tried to get shooting buddies to bring their chrono's to a practice session to check mine against theirs. Never had it happen tho.

I don't have one of those high dollar chrono's, least i don't think so (ProChrono is the brand name) and I normally set-up my ammo to be in the 170-172 PF range, but every time I show up at a chrono it seems my loads are really hot (183 PF at 2008 SS Nats).

IF I was a "M" or "GM" with plans aspirations of winning an Area or National level match, you can bet I would purchase the same make model of the chrono typically used at the major matches, matter of fact, I would have two of them. In the big scheme of things, the cost is not that much.

I too would like to know the name of the shooter who got caught cheating the chrono.

[ChuckS]

Who tried to be a douche at A2? Word on that kind of thing deserves to get out

I am not sure that would be appropriate. But since guilt has been cast, and there are 8 others who are now suspect, it is only right that someone clears their good name

http://uspsa2.org/match_results/match_disp...106&club=A2

Later,

Chuck

[XRe]

I am not sure that would be appropriate. But since guilt has been cast, and there are 8 others who are now suspect, it is only right that someone clears their good name

Well, I can tell you it wasn't Maples or Hogue...

[AZ38super]

The name is for you to guess as we will not tell for the sake of the shooter.

There we many random re-pulls done this year at A2 once again.

As for those that feel it was reading a lower pf, mine went higher.

If I remember correct I thought we had lots of input from CED in getting our infrared's to work the best. Plus running two back to back helps with the variance factor.

I know a lot of work went into setting up our chrono room for testing loads.

[zhunter]

The name is for you to guess as we will not tell for the sake of the shooter.

There we many random re-pulls done this year at A2 once again.

As for those that feel it was reading a lower pf, mine went higher.

If I remember correct I thought we had lots of input from CED in getting our infrared's to work the best. Plus running two back to back helps with the variance factor.

I know a lot of work went into setting up our chrono room for testing loads.

Question, was this the same chrono used at the 2008 WSSSC? If so, it read higher for me too. If not, disregard this post

[zhunter]

On another note....

As a large organization, why do we not have/use the EXACT same chrono's year in and year out for our National Championships? This way, the shooters would get a feel for the national match chrono's and set-up their loads accordingly?

I can't imagine that the chrono companies are paying that much to be the "official match chrono" that this would get in the way. This is certainly a much LARGER issue than making a few bucks from a match sponsor. The continuity would be very good for everyone involved.

I am sorry, but I do not see a downside to this idea.

The members whose memberships pay to run USPSA, the shooters who pay to shoot the matches should be given the respect they deserve on this issue!!!

Same Chrono every time!!!!!

It would be like PGA TOUR golf tournaments having different size holes depending upon what that weeks tournament director chooses.

EZPZ

Just do it!!!

Edited November 18, 2008 by zhunter

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Dave,

I agree with the put ammo in a bag thing not being the way to go. They made our squad walk up with a mag and ammo from our boxes and pulled. I can back as to Neil Hogue and Tom Hubbard's DQ's not being ammo related.

Rich

ETA: Troy Humpert's too. Yeah...we had 3 DQ's in one squad!

Edited November 18, 2008 by uscbigdawg

[zhunter]

Hi Dave,

I agree with the put ammo in a bag thing not being the way to go. They made our squad walk up with a mag and ammo from our boxes and pulled. I can back as to Neil Hogue and Tom Hubbard's DQ's not being ammo related.

Rich

ETA: Troy Humpert's too. Yeah...we had 3 DQ's in one squad!

Not guilty:

Maples

Hubbard

Hogue

I see that Alan Meek has been watching this thread, so...

Alan, can you address my proposal for using a standard Chrono year after year for nationals?

Thanks

[gose]

Hi Dave,

I agree with the put ammo in a bag thing not being the way to go. They made our squad walk up with a mag and ammo from our boxes and pulled. I can back as to Neil Hogue and Tom Hubbard's DQ's not being ammo related.

Rich

ETA: Troy Humpert's too. Yeah...we had 3 DQ's in one squad!

Neither was Daniel N's

[Alan Meek]

Hi Dave,

I agree with the put ammo in a bag thing not being the way to go. They made our squad walk up with a mag and ammo from our boxes and pulled. I can back as to Neil Hogue and Tom Hubbard's DQ's not being ammo related.

Rich

ETA: Troy Humpert's too. Yeah...we had 3 DQ's in one squad!

Not guilty:

Maples

Hubbard

Hogue

I see that Alan Meek has been watching this thread, so...

Alan, can you address my proposal for using a standard Chrono year after year for nationals?

Thanks

Z,

I know CED Chronographs have been used for quite a few years at the Nationals and most if not all Area Championship matches. The std setup for the Nationals is two chronos back to back in a box with Infrared screens. I know Chronoman has detailed his setup in a past issue of Front Sight. I do not know if the chronos are the same exact chronos, but they have been the same manufacturer.

As a side note. Back when USPSA Major Power factor was 175 it was recommended that you would load to a 183pf minimum. I do not recall hearing all the chatter of people just missing the pf. It appears that with the PF dropped to 165 there are people loading to a 170pf and all of the other variables are causing them to go under major pf. Just my observations at the moment.

Alan