Little Bill Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 After shooting USPSA for last 6 months, and becoming horribly addicted, ( ) I took the leap and bought a Dillon 650. I watched the Dillon video, watched the BE video, read the manual, and then began setting it up yesterday. Everything is going smoothly, except I seem to have a question on station 4 set-up and I can't find an answer. I searched the forums and looked on the web, but to no avail. What is the accepted tolerance to OAL? If I am trying to load 9mm Para to 1.165 with a Zero 147gr JHP. (I haven't got to the point of adding powder or primer, but when I do, it will be VV N310 and WSP. I am trying to duplicate a Steve Anderson 125pf bunny-fart load.) The issue that I am having is that it seems that my OAL has some variation. I have carefully measured, re-measured, and re-measured again about 30 different cases. The variation goes from 1.164 to 1.172 with the majority 1.165 to 1.169. Right before I began typing this post I loaded (w/o powder or primer) 5 cases each of Fed, PMC, and Win. Here were my results: Federal (seems the most consistent) 1. 1.168 2. 1.166 3. 1.168 4. 1.169 5. 1.169 PMC 1. 1.171 2. 1.172 3. 1.165 4. 1.165 5. 1.168 Win 1. 1.168 2. 1.171 3. 1.164 4. 1.168 5. 1.168 I have not progressed any further in the set-up, so station 5 is currently empty. Is this variation OK, or is something not quite right? The die appears to be snug, the seating stem for jhp/semi-wadcutter is being used, and the loading table has no movement (due to the fact it weighs about 200lbs and is over-built - if there is such a thing). Thanks for the help!! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 Your variations, especially the first set from federal seem right on. While you've got theose dummies made, make sure they feed and cycle through your gun. I have made hundreds before of 9mm at max length to find they were just a hair too long to fit in the mag! Here's a few out of my box, zero 147 jhp: 1.134 1.136 1.133 1.134 1.134 1.134 Those were all federals except the 1.136 which was R-P (i forget whose brass that is) I guess we just learned that Fed brass is mucho consistent. You'll notice I'm loaded a little short. My main competition Beretta has a bar-sto barrel with very little lead (leade?) in it. Longer loads hit the rifling... I would advise you to load 310 in 9mm as long as your gun will allow and start low and slow. Firing your first handload is scary. I remember taking my first batch to the indoor range. I did the whole "hold the gun like it was a cobra, look to the side and close the eyes" thing. No probs... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 BTW, on my 550 the oal lengthens when all the stages are full, so I set my oal a hair lower than I want when adjusting it with the other stations empty. I don't know if the 650 does that or not, but thought it was worth mentioning. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted August 3, 2003 Author Share Posted August 3, 2003 Thanks for the help! I am shooting a G34 and it appears that the rounds cycle ok loading one round, but with a full mag, the rounds start sticking. So, it looks like that I will load shorter. According to a VV chart, they show a Hornady 147gr XTP at 1.142. Accroding to my "One Book / One Caliber " manual, that is the longest JHP loading I can find at any weight. I think that I will load down to 1.142-1.145ish. My initial spread of .008 seems small, but I don't really know. I have a boatload of PMC brass, so that is what I will be loading primarily. Is the spread primarily caused by brass differences? Will it be problematic? I think that I will get it close, then install/adjust the crimp die, and then check for consistency again. Any other suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 A .005 spread is nothing to worry about. A shaky bench of grim in the seating die could give that much. OAL needs to be set for maximum reliability. Like Steve says...some barrels, are set up for shorter OAL. Different bullet profiles feed in different guns at different lengths. 1.165 is the "pushing it too far" limit in Glock mags. VV310 is a fast...and high pressure powder. Be super-duper, setra specail careful with it. (Too hot, you could have pressure problems...too low, and the round might blow up instead of firing) If this is your first time relaoding...start with a middle of the pack load...get it out of a book. (If I have any around...I measure a Zero 147 round for OAL in my glocks.) Oh...and 147's are at the heavy end for 9mm (I think). Heavy bullets can cause pressure problems too. Be careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 I went through an episode of wildly varying OAL's once. I also was getting bullet seated crooked about half the time. It turned out that I was using the flat end of the dillon seater versus the round end on round nose bullets. (I just switched to RN's from loading HP's b/c I couldn't get hollowpoints for some reason.) Swapping ends solved everything. Ooops..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessej Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 Yeah the 650 is like the 550. When i load C.O.A.L to 1.180 with a full station it ends up 1.185-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 BTW, on my 550 the oal lengthens when all the stages are full, so I set my oal a hair lower than I want when adjusting it with the other stations empty. Same thing happens on my Hornady Projector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 Thanks for the input! I changed the OAL to 1.142, and it seems to fit the Glock mags MUCH better than the 1.165, and the OAL seems much more consistent at this length. (.004 variation in 10) I installed station 5, and got it partially adjusted until my wife invoked the power of weekend chores. From what I have read and seen on the videos, it appears that the crimp should be .001 tighter at the mouth than the measurement at the bullet base. i.e. if the measurement of the case where the base of the bullet is .376, than the very edge of the case mouth (crimp) should be .375. Do I understand that correctly? Thanks...I am definitely a BEginner at reloading.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 My $.02 worth. The OAL I have used for 9x19 is typically 1.110" - 1.120" for JHP's, and 1.115" - 1.125" for FMJ, LRN & LSWC type bullets. I am using 1.135" for 9x21 (major PF) in a Glock 17L because of magazine binding at any longer OAL with the JHP I am using. For Glocks in 9mm calibers I would stay near, or under 1.130" w/ JHP's because of the wider nose profile and the tendency for them to bind in mags at longer OAL's. The FMJ type bullet will typically allow up to 1.155"ish before problems start cropping up in Glock mags. In my experience, as long as the power factor is kept reasonable, shorter OAL's (1.115"ish) usually work better in doublestack 9mm's anyway. Five to ten thousandths variation in OAL with JHP's is very typical. I would only worry about OAL variations like you are getting if I were loading with high grade FMJ's. With FMJ's it might mean there was something hinky with the press, but not with JHP's. BTW, If you use a good case lube (Hornady "One Shot") on your 9mm brass, the Dillon press will operate a lot smoother and you will get more consistency in all operations. Even though you can size dry in carbide pistol dies, it works a lot better with lube. Just leave it on the rounds, it will enhance feeding when you shoot them. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 My experience has been JHPs, by nature, are inconsistent in length. Even Sierra MatchKing rifle bullets, which are otherwise astoundingly consistent, vary in length due to the jacket being ragged at the tip. I just keep an eye on the tolerance range when I'm setting up an OAL, knowing that the OAL may vary, but the base of the bullet is always in the same place, which is my primary concern. (Pressure issues...) I love 147s in 9mm, especially with N330 or Unique. They work better on quirky Pepper Poppers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 1.165 for a 9mm JHP is WAY too long. For the zero 147, 1.10 to 1.13 is about right. I wouldn't worry about a devation of .005 at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I switched from 320 to 310 in 9mm shooting Zero 147JHP. The exact load you are looking at. I am currently loading for a Springfield 1911 9mm using a 1.180 setting and getting 1.176 to 1.184 variation. I'm using 3.0 grains of 310, Win brass, WSR and getting 873 fps avg with 8 fps SD. Now that I've given you that information, I will echo Flex's warnings. This load is over the edge in my gun. If I use a small titanium firing pin I get cratering on the primer so bad that primer shavings wind up jamming the firing pin; with a large diameter steel firing pin the primers look ok. Using 320 I never saw this problem at the same pfs. I have also experimented with 310 in a G-34 using win brass, wsr, 2.9 grs 310 and an OAL of 1.150 (I think) for about 890 fps. I have tested 4 different primers with this same load in the glock FSP, FSPM, WSPM, and WSR. All have shown pressure signs. I liked 310 at first but I won't load it for my wife in her match or pratice ammo, and as soon as I finish the 310 I'm using I'm going back to 320. You have to be very sensititve to notice recoil difference between 310 and 320. In a match condition I'm almost 100% certain you couldn't tell. 310 is an excellent bullseye powder where pf doesn't matter or it's great in a cartridge like the 45 ACP. My experience is it's just too fast for safety in the 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I liked 310 at first but I won't load it for my wife in her match or pratice ammo, and as soon as I finish the 310 I'm using I'm going back to 320. You have to be very sensititve to notice recoil difference between 310 and 320. In a match condition I'm almost 100% certain you couldn't tell. I think that says it all. I can't say strongly enough that I believe...without a shadow of a doubt...that trying to get the absolute softest load is just plain worthless. I causes far more trouble than it will ever help. There is no need to push this envelope. Accurate and reliable will win time after time. The "softest load" might make a difference for those that are competitive Masters or better. But, even then, it is not likely a factor. A good, accurate book load that runs the gun and doesn't show any signs of pressure is THE way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Interesting...I have not seen any pressure signs in my Berettas from 310 and 147s...my primers look the same as my titegroup loads. I will respectfully disagree about the difference between 320 and 310. I could tell a major difference in flip with those two. 310 and titegroup are much closer and I would go back to titegroup before using 320. Flex is right about load obsession...I just really enjoy finding the perfect load for an application. start low, go slow, SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Just to clarify and reiterate...anyone who is nervous about 310 and 147s can get 95% as good a load with titegroup. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I should clarify too. The "softest load" might make a difference for those that are competitive Masters or better. Steve Anderson falls into that group. I should also say that "feel" doesn't always translate into the best load when on the clock. Sometime a little snap is fine. Anyway...my point was to not push to the edge until you have a foundation of reloading experience to stand on. Safety first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 Thanks for all of the great info! I may start with a Titegroup loading, and then move to the 1lb of 310 that I have for some experimentation. I DEFINITELY agree that I need some more experience before pushing the reloading envelope. I have been using the 100 count 115gr Winchester white box stuff, and I recently shot my best match yet with it at Area III. David Sevigny and David Olhasso were there shooting Production also. I ended up with an Overall Match % of 72.02, which was good for 6th out of 10. (Behind 2 GMs, a U that is normally a M, another M, an A, and then me). I had a few really good stages (#6, #8) where my stage % was 80% and 88% respectively. It was very cool to shoot the match and then compare stages after the match to the other really good shooters. There were several stages where I had a nice time, mostly good hits, and a dreaded Mike. Those pesky little fellas normally showed there ugly face on swingers, or on far targets, where I have a harder time calling my shots. Anyway, I am looking forward to shooting a less snappy load than the 115. Thanks for all of the great input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 Almost forgot.....Anyone have any suggestions for a good starting point for TG in 9mm 147gr loaded at 1.135-1.145? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Why funny you should ask... Do you have a chrono? Start around 3 grains and work up in increments of .3 grains til you make a 130 power factor. No worries with titegroup... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 I ordered a Pact MkIV with the chrono components from our gracious host about 2 weeks ago, and I am waiting for them to land on my doorstep.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Hornady list a MAX load of 3.6 with HDY XTP 147's (They list an OAL of 1.100, though I like you OAL 1.135-1.145 better) I would start with 20 rounds at 3.0, then twenty at 3.2, then 20 at 3.4. After 3.4, I would only bum,p the powder up in 0.10 increments. Don't shoot them all at once. Shoot a few at a time...then clear the gun and inspect the brass and primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 "VV310 is a fast...and high pressure powder. Be super-duper, setra specail careful with it. (Too hot, you could have pressure problems...too low, and the round might blow up instead of firing) If this is your first time relaoding...start with a middle of the pack load...get it out of a book. Oh...and 147's are at the heavy end for 9mm (I think). Heavy bullets can cause pressure problems too. Be careful." Plenty of good advice & I will add that you have yet another potential new reloader problem: bullet set-back. 1st) I load 147 Zeros over N310 & use it in a G17 & Steyr M9, at the max OAL for 9mm Glock mags, approx. 1.155" (may vary a bit). I get flat primers/pressure signs w/ Win sm pistol primers at 3.2 grns. of N310. I never had pressure problems with Titegroup & the loads I used were book loads (unlike N310/147 which you will never find in a book). Why the set-back warning? You mentioned a Dillon 650 - good choice, I use one too & they are hands down the BEST. However, I can't say the same for the Dillon re-size die. All the other Dillon dies are top-notch. With the resize die however, due to the extreme bell, the Dillon sized far less of the case than any other brand I have tried (RCBS & Lee). What portion it did size seemed larger than other dies. Why was that a problem? I had set-back problems. More crimp you might think? No, you should not be adjusting the crimp die to correct set-back problems in 9mm, you should get a tighter re-size die. Now, you must be thinking this is an answer for a non-existant problem since you have not had a set back or KB yet. However, my dillon size-die set-backs happened w/ Titegroup and thankfully, the gun jammed each time and I caught them. A set back w. Titegroup might have been bad- but imagine my N310 load setting back. This stuff gives pressure signs at normal AOL. At a drastically reduced OAL, I shudder to think that might happen. I agree 100% with those here that you are better off w N320 or Titegroup. For those who use the Dillon size die (maybe you even loaded 1000s of rounds on it) & have not had a problem, great, I am happy for you. IMHO, this die is less than ideal and I believe it has caused a number of KBs that were probably attributed to double charges when it was actually an oversized case that let the bullet slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I am with Carlos. I worry about bullet setcback as well. I wouldn't reload without a Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) in the last station. They are only about $12. In fact, the complete Lee Carbide 4 die set (including the FCD) is less than $30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Poor wiz...he's gettin' buried in help! The lee U sizing die will help with setbac as well. It's .001 (right number of zeros?) smaller than a reg sizing die. .02, SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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