shooterready Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 You can use the Barney mag for its intended purpose, to get a round in the chamber with a minimum of manipulation. You may not reload with it during the stage. Where does it say that in the rulebook? If you drop the barney mag, it's a procedural. And you can't use it during a CoF. If you can get a procedural for dropping it, why can't you use it during a CoF? My argument in '05 at the OHIO IDPA State Championship was that if you can't use the barney mag during the CoF, it doesn't exist. To this day, I don't believe it should have been a procedural. Luckily, I won that match by 0.68 seconds. Doc, I agree with you. I would not have called it that way. But, maybe in the future, just have one barney round for each stage. That will leave your barney mag empty if you drop it for any reason. But, then again, maybe the RO saw you do a speed reload...... Hmmmm Start shooting a Glock again and you won't have that problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Start shooting a Glock again NEVER Out of protest for the bad call I received three years ago, I have decided to forever forego the use of a barney mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I have eaten a couple of PE's for my Barney mag dropping out of my shirt pocket. It never even occurred to me to stuff a Barney mag in a shirt pocket. Which, I guess, answers the question I had while reading this, "How the hell could you ever actually lose a Barney mag during a course of fire?" But this is the attitude of a guy who's always stored his Barney mag in that deep, deep, ain't-coming-out-of-there front pants pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I have eaten a couple of PE's for my Barney mag dropping out of my shirt pocket. It never even occurred to me to stuff a Barney mag in a shirt pocket. Which, I guess, answers the question I had while reading this, "How the hell could you ever actually lose a Barney mag during a course of fire?" But this is the attitude of a guy who's always stored his Barney mag in that deep, deep, ain't-coming-out-of-there front pants pocket. I usuall wear 5.11s of some sort so the start mag is in my "mag" pocket and the barney is in my front pants pocket and I never had it even think of coming out. Now when I go to do a RWR that mag well.....that is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 It never even occurred to me to stuff a Barney mag in a shirt pocket. Which, I guess, answers the question I had while reading this, "How the hell could you ever actually lose a Barney mag during a course of fire?" That's how I lost mine. Front pocket of my 5.11 concealment vest that I only wear while shooting IDPA. Duane, if you ever have a hard time figuring out how something can get screwed up, send me a PM. Odds are I've found a way!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detonics Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Well usually I put it in a shirt pocket with a hook and loop closure. I have enough stuff in my pants pockets (usually spare mags for the next stage) as it is. Every once in a while I forget and wear a non "tactical" shirt and sure enough the mag jumps out. I think that it waits for that day and does it on purpose. Robert Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Well usually I put it in a shirt pocket with a hook and loop closure. I have enough stuff in my pants pockets (usually spare mags for the next stage) as it is. Every once in a while I forget and wear a non "tactical" shirt and sure enough the mag jumps out. I think that it waits for that day and does it on purpose. Robert Ray So since you say you have spare mags for the next stage in your pocket I'm assuming that the barney mag in your pocket is legal? Secondly, if said mag jumps out I guess your saying that its a procedural for a dropped mag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 FWIW, you do get an "oops" allowance if, during a Tactical Reload, while attempting to stow a partially-loaded mag on-the-move to another position (such as on string two of stage three of the classifier, while moving from the barricade to the barrel), that mag falls to the ground. A good-faith effort is required. Other than that, no approved reload concludes with a loaded mag still on the ground, and you can't fire a shot until the reload is completed. Sorry. I believe that is old and out of date information. I believe that was in the old rule book. No where in the 2005 rule book does the phrase "good faith effort" or good faith attempt" appear. What it does say is: Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty. Bill apparently changed his mind; you are correct. There is no longer a reference to "good faith" attempts to stow a mag. Stow it, or else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Duane, if you ever have a hard time figuring out how something can get screwed up, send me a PM. Odds are I've found a way!!! Good to have that resource to call on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I have enough stuff in my pants pockets (usually spare mags for the next stage) as it is. Ah-hah!! So, can I get a ruling from IDPA HQ on whether or not it's okay for me to start a stage with a bunch of extra loaded mags in my pocket, enough to take me through the match, as long as I don't use them during the stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I hope that Mr. Ray isn't given a hard time. I consider having him here a valuable resource, and we should listen to what he has to say..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) Hear, Hear! I second that notion, glad to have you posting RR. Hope your clarifications make it onto that unofficial list over on the idpaforum. I have enough stuff in my pants pockets (usually spare mags for the next stage) as it is. Ah-hah!! So, can I get a ruling from IDPA HQ on whether or not it's okay for me to start a stage with a bunch of extra loaded mags in my pocket, enough to take me through the match, as long as I don't use them during the stage? Duane, I think that's what RR has been saying. The restriction is on what is USED during a string, and not on what is otherwise in your pocket. Sounds like that extra mags a shooter carries to speed up the flow of the match are not only allowed, but encouraged. I see barney mags and mags for subsequent shootage falling into this lot. So, the second question, shooter has mag(A) in his gun, mag( and mag© on his belt and mag(d) in his pocket. If I understand what you are saying RR, when mag(A) has gone dry, he can't reload from his pocket/mag(d) as that mag isn't considered in lieu of the belt mags, so if he does, it's a proceedural. If it appears he's doing it to gain an advantage (say you are reloading while prone or something) then a more severe penalty could be awarded. This is even if shooter only employs 3 or fewer mags in the string. i.e., the only time a shooter should reload from his pocket is: up to one time if he has a single mag on his belt. Up to 2 times if he has no belt mounted mags. Did I read that right? Boiling it down for my own benefit: Shooter with 2 mags on belt never reloads a fresh mag from a pocket. (he can have more in pockets, just can't use them after the timer). Shooter with 1 mag on belt reloads at most one fresh mag from a pocket. (he can have more in pockets, just can't use them after the timer). Shooter with 0 mags on belt reloads at most 2 fresh mags from a pocket. (he can have more in pockets, just can't use them after the timer). I'm including the word fresh so that we don't get confused on a shooter reusing a mag that might have been stored during a RWR/TR. Boy, I don't think my "simplifying" or "clarifying" skilz are very good tonight. Edited October 30, 2008 by kdmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganShootist Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Like I said in post one of this thread----"3 mags max",,,,,and later..... "the barney mag. is okay if it isn't introduced into the stage".... By introduced I would include using it to reload or having it "out" while the stage is in progress. Chris old Buddy.... you introduced the mag into the stage. You didn't mean to... it was a tough break and a hard call..... but you introduced a 4th mag into the game while the clock was running. If the SO was watching your gun he probably had no idea where that extra mag came from... and really didn't have to care. There was an extra mag. involved in the stage and it hit the ground with ammo inside. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I'm still waiting on the punch line... you guys aren't serious about this are you??? i just went around and around with 3 other shooters about alot of this...even while working a match this yr,i had a SSP shooter come to the line with 8 mags on him,2 on the belt,and others in the back pockets and cargo pouches on the legs..i asked where he was reloading from,he said the quickest place he could get a mag,i said ok declare now where from, i told him only 3 mags could be used during a COF,or it would be a ftdr..he went from the belt.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 (edited) If the SO was watching your gun he probably had no idea where that extra mag came from... If he was watching my gun, he wouldn't have seen the mag fall out!! I was robbed three years ago. p.53--Remember that the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt. G Man, yes, now we're just kidding around....Mark and I are buddies. Only a psycho would still be upset three years after a match, right? Time for my meds.... ETA: Why didn't I think of it three years ago? I should have denied that mag was mine!!!!!!!!!! $30 bucks for 3 seconds, why not? Edited October 30, 2008 by CSEMARTIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 OT but related... There was a previous debate - here or on the IDPA board - about the allowability of split carry. The rules say you can have reload ammo in pockets IN LIEU of belt carry. There were people reading that as either - or, belt OR pocket. Others wanted to have one mag in a pocket, one on the belt and thought that ok. I have never felt THAT need, but when shooting a revolver it is a help to have the permitted two speedloaders in front of the holster and the other in the strong side vest pocket instead of somewhere else on the belt. I haven't shot revolver in a while so it is not a major factor to me, just wondering how it came out and if there were an official pronouncement on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 OT but related... Jim, Don't sweat it. I derailed this thread two pages ago with my selfish antics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I believe this is what the rulebook says: In lieu of the use of ammunition carriers, spare magazines (2), speedloaders (3) and moon clips(3) used in a CoF may be carried in the contestant’s pockets and used for any IDPA legal reload. Page 39 of the 2005 rule book. Well...guess you learn something new everyday! Reading that, and being that they put numbers by the devices, I'm going to say that you can have mags in your pockets but only 2, 3 if revos, if you don't have mag pouches. Funny, post #7 stated the same thing and no one believed me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganShootist Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Chris I'd offer my shoulder for you to cry on (about the undisputably correct call from a match three years ago--- WHICH YOU STILL WON) But at 6'6" asnd 292 you'd crush me like a grape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 LOL. Literally. Now that was funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Duane, I think that's what RR has been saying. When the IDPA HQ rules guru casually mentions, "This is what I do," in the course of a conversation, I think we have a subtle clue it's not against the rules. I just want it stated definitively as an answer to my question so I can run that off and keep it in my range bag, just in case I ever again run up against an SO who thinks it's illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 from a match three years ago--- WHICH YOU STILL WON) Yeah, but it was really close!!! 0.68 seconds between 1st and 2nd place. A win is a win, but what would have happened if I had tanked the stage where we had to shoot their gun. Remember that double action S&W auto with fixed sights? We had to reach across a table and get it out of a drawer and shoot at the targets with the sun in our face. I still have nightmares about it. That barney mag procedural just about cost me the match. I'll bet you lunch at Taco Bell that you'll never catch me with a barney mag ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganShootist Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Why would I bet you a Taco Bell lunch..... when you still owe me a seak dinner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Why would I bet you a Taco Bell lunch..... when you still owe me a seak dinner? OK....steak fajitas it is. I'm a man of my word!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) As far as being worried about dropping a barney mag and getting a penalty, my two solutions are -Load 1 round in your barney mag. If you drop it during the stage, it doesn't matter -Load 11 rounds in your first mag (if possible with your gun) instead of fiddling with a barney when you start. Have I been doing this illegally all this time? Edited November 4, 2008 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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