# of magazines

[MichiganShootist]

THe bottom line---- see post one.

Three mags max. on the belt or in the pockets if you choose. Use a barney at your own risk.... but don't introduce it into a stage unless you want a penalty.

[Merlin Orr]

THe bottom line---- see post one.

Three mags max. on the belt or in the pockets if you choose. Use a barney at your own risk.... but don't introduce it into a stage unless you want a penalty.

Have not been called on the Barney... yet. While SOing and waiting on someone to load to chamber, take out mag, fish in pocket and get loose round - install in mag - replace mag and then start the CoF...I wish everyone would carry a Barney to top off.

[MichiganShootist]

I agree carrying a barney mag makes all the sense in the world and I do it 100% of the time I am shooting a semi-auto. And I have in hundreds of matches never been called on that.

But it can't be introduced into the match in any way. My buddy Chris had the mis-fortune of dropping his Barney during the stage ... and not picking it up... and he got busted for it (which I believe was the right call).

I generally wear tactical style pants or shorts for IDPA and make sure the barney mag. is secured in a pocket with a closure.

The key here is mags. in the pocket are okay if they are in lieu of mags on the belt.... not over and above mags on the belt.

[Steve J]

See post #9. Once I hear back from HQ we will know for sure. As far as I'm concerned, all we've heard so far is opinion.

[sslav]

1. if a mag falls from your mag carrier (becomes dislodged), it's an automatic procedural whether you pick it up or not. Call it a gamey gear penalty.

2. a mag with ammo that is stripped from the gun while clearing a jam is considered to be faulty and does not have to be picked up. No penalty.

So far, so good.

3. if the COF calls for a mandatory reload with retention, the mag that comes out of the gun has to be stowed before another shot is fired. You can't pull an "oops" and pick it up later. That is a poorly masked speed reload.

In what space-time continuum is it ever quicker to drop a mag and pick it up off the ground then to do a reload with retention? How does it make any difference to your time if you pick it up before or after firing a shot? What happened to the "competitor gets the benefit of the doubt"?

4. CSE's case. if a mag with ammo falls to the ground say from a pocket or as a result of a fumbled reload, you have to pick it up and stow it before leaving that shooting position for another, not immediately, just before you depart that area. If your barney falls from your pocket while moving, you have to stop and pick it up if it contains ammo.

To start if this rule does not at least partially contradict #3 then it leaves a hell of a lot to interpretation. Did the competitor drop the mag because of a mental oops or did he drop it because he fumbled retention? Why do you have to pick up a dropped mag right away before firing another shot, but a fumbled mag can be picked up before leaving a position?

Next onto Barney mag. This rule makes zero sense. Barney mag is a mechanism for loading to capacity. That is all it is. It does not exist as a practical reload following a LAMR. It is convenient for speeding things along. But if it puts me at a risk of a procedural, I would rather dispense with it altogether and top my mag off after I chamber a round even if it takes longer.

[Steve J]

3. if the COF calls for a mandatory reload with retention, the mag that comes out of the gun has to be stowed before another shot is fired. You can't pull an "oops" and pick it up later. That is a poorly masked speed reload.

In what space-time continuum is it ever quicker to drop a mag and pick it up off the ground then to do a reload with retention? How does it make any difference to your time if you pick it up before or after firing a shot? What happened to the "competitor gets the benefit of the doubt"?

4. CSE's case. if a mag with ammo falls to the ground say from a pocket or as a result of a fumbled reload, you have to pick it up and stow it before leaving that shooting position for another, not immediately, just before you depart that area. If your barney falls from your pocket while moving, you have to stop and pick it up if it contains ammo.

To start if this rule does not at least partially contradict #3 then it leaves a hell of a lot to interpretation. Did the competitor drop the mag because of a mental oops or did he drop it because he fumbled retention? Why do you have to pick up a dropped mag right away before firing another shot, but a fumbled mag can be picked up before leaving a position?

A Moderator is going to perhaps want to split this thread drift off to it own thread.

Firstly, did you go to the link I provided and read the detailed clarification from HQ? I was just paraphrasing. In #4, if I'm at my last shooting position and I fumble a reload and the mag hits the ground with ammo, I don't have to pick it up because I never left that shooting position. Now, fast forward to Stage 3 of the classifier, String 1. It calls for a mandatory reload with retention AND you never have to leave that shooting position, SO if I use #4, I can "oops" do a speed reload and skip the RWR and claim that I made the attempt. HQ has clarified that if the COF calls for a mandatory RWR, there is NO good faith effort to stow the mag. It has to be stowed before you fire another shot. Period.

[steel1212]

In what space-time continuum is it ever quicker to drop a mag and pick it up off the ground then to do a reload with retention? How does it make any difference to your time if you pick it up before or after firing a shot? What happened to the "competitor gets the benefit of the doubt"?

Not to get in an argument because I haven't actually tried it but, I think I could do a speed reload, shooting what I need to and snatch up the dropped mag on my way out quicker than trying to stow the mag and grab a fresh one....then again I don't practice the RWR a lot lol.

The biggie I think would be like Steve said if you don't have to move from that position say the last shooting position or on the classifier. I guess in that situtation you would have to make sure they made an attempt at a RWR/TR before dinging them.

Edited October 29, 2008 by steel1212

[ferges99]

I guess my question was not as simple as I thought it might be. I did not intend to open a can of worms.

[ChuckS]

I guess my question was not as simple as I thought it might be. I did not intend to open a can of worms.

Herb,

The finer points of rules interpretation aside, if you can't get a 18 round (max) stage done in 22 or 25 or 31 (dunno about wheel guns) rounds, you should probably be looking at a solution other than packing more mags.

Sit back and enjoy the show,

Chuck

[Steve J]

IDPA HQ has spoken.

I stand corrected.

Steve,

On question one, the shooter is limited to using only the 3 magazines (one in the gun and two on the person).

On question two, technically he would at least earn a PE. If the SO thought he was doing it to gain an advantage (say he reloaded out of an upper shirt pocket) then the competitor could earn either a FTDR or a DQ depending on the match directors discretion.

I hope this helps answer your questions. Have a good week and a great shooting season.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

robert@idpa.com

[RickB]

FWIW, you do get an "oops" allowance if, during a Tactical Reload, while attempting to stow a partially-loaded mag on-the-move to another position (such as on string two of stage three of the classifier, while moving from the barricade to the barrel), that mag falls to the ground. A good-faith effort is required. Other than that, no approved reload concludes with a loaded mag still on the ground, and you can't fire a shot until the reload is completed.

[HighVelocity]

Interesting. I have allowed many shooters to fish their barney mag out of their pocket when they've run out of ammo trying to hit a couple of small plates, swinger, etc. Looks like I'll have to quit doing that.

Edited October 29, 2008 by HighVelocity

[Steve J]

FWIW, you do get an "oops" allowance if, during a Tactical Reload, while attempting to stow a partially-loaded mag on-the-move to another position (such as on string two of stage three of the classifier, while moving from the barricade to the barrel), that mag falls to the ground. A good-faith effort is required. Other than that, no approved reload concludes with a loaded mag still on the ground, and you can't fire a shot until the reload is completed.

Sorry. I believe that is old and out of date information. I believe that was in the old rule book. No where in the 2005 rule book does the phrase "good faith effort" or good faith attempt" appear.

What it does say is:

Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with

Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Steve J

[ferges99]

I guess my question was not as simple as I thought it might be. I did not intend to open a can of worms.

Herb,

The finer points of rules interpretation aside, if you can't get a 18 round (max) stage done in 22 or 25 or 31 (dunno about wheel guns) rounds, you should probably be looking at a solution other than packing more mags.

Sit back and enjoy the show,

Chuck

I have never said I needed more mags. I only wanted to get a rules clarification. This came up at a match I was shooting last Sunday and just I just wanted to get a clear answer. I suppose we now have that since since HQ's answer has chimed in.

[bkeeler]

BK

[CSEMARTIN]

Have not been called on the Barney... yet. While SOing and waiting on someone to load to chamber, take out mag, fish in pocket and get loose round - install in mag - replace mag and then start the CoF...I wish everyone would carry a Barney to top off.

I used to carry a Barney to be "considerate". It's quicker at the LAMR commander!

After I got a procedural for dropping the barney mag, I stopped using one. Now I make everyone suffer while I LAMR!!!!

It sounds like having a barney mag on your person is against the rules if I'm reading the most recent post by Steve J correctly??

IDPA HQ's most recent interpretation of the rules brings up an interesting point. What about stages with multiple strings that "require" a shooter to have multiple mags on their person?

Edited October 29, 2008 by CSEMARTIN

[RickB]

FWIW, you do get an "oops" allowance if, during a Tactical Reload, while attempting to stow a partially-loaded mag on-the-move to another position (such as on string two of stage three of the classifier, while moving from the barricade to the barrel), that mag falls to the ground. A good-faith effort is required. Other than that, no approved reload concludes with a loaded mag still on the ground, and you can't fire a shot until the reload is completed.

Sorry. I believe that is old and out of date information. I believe that was in the old rule book. No where in the 2005 rule book does the phrase "good faith effort" or good faith attempt" appear.

What it does say is:

Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with

Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty.

This is from the semi-official SO class syllabus that we were using two years ago:

"The rulebook is a little ambiguous on this rule, so for your benefit, I verified it with Bill Wilson, even though I knew the rule. With only two exceptions, if a shooter’s gun, including the chamber, is not empty, the shooter must always retain the magazine or live rounds during a reload, period. The only two exceptions are for loaded magazines dropped during malfunction clearances or when a shooter makes an honest attempt to retain a magazine, but it falls from their pocket or pouch when they move to a new position of cover. This is the only time the honest attempt clause applies. It does not apply to simply dropping a magazine or missing a pocket."

If that language did not make it into the official SO syllabus, which I don't have handy, then I'll concede.

[atbarr]

IDPA HQ has spoken.

I stand corrected.

Steve,

On question one, the shooter is limited to using only the 3 magazines (one in the gun and two on the person).

Thank you,

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

robert@idpa.com

Ok guys, ya lost me. Can I use a barney mag or not?

A.T.

[Jim Watson]

You can use the Barney mag for its intended purpose, to get a round in the chamber with a minimum of manipulation. You may not reload with it during the stage.

[steel1212]

IDPA HQ has spoken.

I stand corrected.

Steve,

On question one, the shooter is limited to using only the 3 magazines (one in the gun and two on the person).

Thank you,

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

robert@idpa.com

Ok guys, ya lost me. Can I use a barney mag or not?

A.T.

A.T. if you make me sit there and wait on you while you fish out your barney bullet out of your change pocket in your blue jeans I'm going to give you a FTHU (Failure To Hurry Up) the next time your on my squad!!!!

I think from what Steve posted on HQ's behalf is that they said you can only USE 3 mags, 1 in the gun and 2 on the belt for the COF. As long as you don't fish out your barney mag to complete the stage your fine.

On that note where are we at if a barney mag drops out?

[atbarr]

A.T. if you make me sit there and wait on you while you fish out your barney bullet out of your change pocket in your blue jeans I'm going to give you a FTHU (Failure To Hurry Up) the next time your on my squad!!!!

I think from what Steve posted on HQ's behalf is that they said you can only USE 3 mags, 1 in the gun and 2 on the belt for the COF. As long as you don't fish out your barney mag to complete the stage your fine.

On that note where are we at if a barney mag drops out?

Hello Corey, you shooting Sunday?

So, as long as I have a spare 'Barney' magazine to use and not make you wait for me to find a spare bullet in my pocket, I'm ok?

Also, I can't find the ruling on the FTHU in the rule book. As slow as I am, I'd be having them on each stage.

A.T.

[steel1212]

A.T. if you make me sit there and wait on you while you fish out your barney bullet out of your change pocket in your blue jeans I'm going to give you a FTHU (Failure To Hurry Up) the next time your on my squad!!!!

I think from what Steve posted on HQ's behalf is that they said you can only USE 3 mags, 1 in the gun and 2 on the belt for the COF. As long as you don't fish out your barney mag to complete the stage your fine.

On that note where are we at if a barney mag drops out?

Hello Corey, you shooting Sunday?

So, as long as I have a spare 'Barney' magazine to use and not make you wait for me to find a spare bullet in my pocket, I'm ok?

Also, I can't find the ruling on the FTHU in the rule book. As slow as I am, I'd be having them on each stage.

A.T.

Its in the index under WTF

Yeah, I'll be there sat teaching the afternoon class and I'l be there sunday as long as I don't have to go out on a call back.

[atbarr]

Its in the index under WTF

U R so BAD!

See ya Sunday,

A.T.

[CSEMARTIN]

You can use the Barney mag for its intended purpose, to get a round in the chamber with a minimum of manipulation. You may not reload with it during the stage.

Where does it say that in the rulebook?

If you drop the barney mag, it's a procedural. And you can't use it during a CoF. If you can get a procedural for dropping it, why can't you use it during a CoF?

My argument in '05 at the OHIO IDPA State Championship was that if you can't use the barney mag during the CoF, it doesn't exist. To this day, I don't believe it should have been a procedural. Luckily, I won that match by 0.68 seconds.

[detonics]

Ok guys (and gals out there), I only answered the question Steve asked. The Barney Mag is a whole different issue. It boils down to "You can only use three mags in a single String of Fire." If you want to have more in your pocket for a multiple string CoF then that is ok and even encouraged in the interests of keeping the match running a quickly as possible. I hate having to wait while some one runs back to their bag to pick up extra mags.

However, if a mag hits the ground you may get a PE depending on the situation. The SO is supposed to be watching the gun and not were the mag fell out from. In an ideal world the score keeper would catch this but there is not always one to be had. You may get the benifit of the doubt but don't bet the match on it. I have eaten a couple of PE's for my Barney mag dropping out of my shirt pocket.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ