sfinney Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) Note: The posts at the start of this thread were split from a different thread. They warranted their own thread. - Admin. 8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty. 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows: Aplogies. You are correct in that if the statement made by the RO was the "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" command, the shooter should not have fired again. But he RO should also have already given the “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” command by that point, even if the the competitor had alread yperfomred those steps on his own, before he issued the "If Clear " command. So the RO was in error if he skipped that command, in any case..... the shooter probably thought he had just been given the "If you are finished" command, if if that HAD been the case, would have legal to keep firing. Bad range commands all around it seems. Edited October 16, 2008 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pspiranha Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 ..... you may want to reread some of the those rules, I think your interpetation of how some of those rules are applied may be a little skewed (the 10.4.3 rule tied to your reference of the "IF you are finished..." statement, as just one example.)(I also am an ex-military instructor, and the first thing they teach us is be sure of your referenced sources when you critique someone...... its one thing to throw out rule numbers, but make sure you actually know what a rule means, not what you think it means, before you call someone out on it) . Welcome to the forums! You've come to right place, good open civil discussion, and more importantly learning, is what its all about. Ok, I ask you to go back and reread my post. It was not 8.3.6 "If you are finished......." . Rather 8.3.7 "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster". These are two seperate and distinct commands. If I understand the reasoning behind a DQ for this it's to preclude someone having an AD during the Hammer Down and then claiming to have been engaging a target. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 ..... you may want to reread some of the those rules, I think your interpetation of how some of those rules are applied may be a little skewed (the 10.4.3 rule tied to your reference of the "IF you are finished..." statement, as just one example.)(I also am an ex-military instructor, and the first thing they teach us is be sure of your referenced sources when you critique someone...... its one thing to throw out rule numbers, but make sure you actually know what a rule means, not what you think it means, before you call someone out on it) . Welcome to the forums! You've come to right place, good open civil discussion, and more importantly learning, is what its all about. Ok, I ask you to go back and reread my post. It was not 8.3.6 "If you are finished......." . Rather 8.3.7 "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster". These are two seperate and distinct commands. If I understand the reasoning behind a DQ for this it's to preclude someone having an AD during the Hammer Down and then claiming to have been engaging a target. David Absolutley correct, onced the If Clear command is given, any subsequent shots = DQ. Very clear. I had picked up on Homie's post and the "If you are finished" part there, not your post. My bad. Now to confuse things further, did the RO give the "If Finished" command? Or did he skip it? You could make a case the shooter was given incorrect range commands and is entitled to a reshoot, if the RO went straight to "If Clear", when clearly the Shooter had a desire to keep shooting but was not given the correct commands?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 8.3.7 has changed slightly from the last rule book to the current rule book. Might be good to have a thread on it specifically. (I have a Major match story to go with...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pspiranha Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Now to confuse things further, did the RO give the "If Finished" command? Or did he skip it? You could make a case the shooter was given incorrect range commands and is entitled to a reshoot, if the RO went straight to "If Clear", when clearly the Shooter had a desire to keep shooting but was not given the correct commands?. After witnessing what happened I waited until after the RO had finished scoring the stage and then went over and asked him if he had given the "If clear..." command. He replied 'Yes". However I did not ask about the "If you are finished ..." command. So, I cannot verify if this happened or not. But I will say this, even if the RO skipped 8.3.6 every shooter is required to follow the commands of the RO even if not given in the proper order. The correct thing for the shooter to do would have been to clear and holster and then request the RM to rule on whether a reshoot should have been awarded. All of this depends on whether or not the RO actually skipped this ruile. OBTW, at the next stage we were again waiting on squad 1 and I approached the shooter in question and showed him the rule ( just so he would know). He gave no indication that there had been an omission by the RO. He stated that he was unaware of the rule and thanked me for the info. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 But I will say this, even if the RO skipped 8.3.6 every shooter is required to follow the commands of the RO even if not given in the proper order. I would have to disagree with this statement. The commands are spoken in english all over the world. What if a shooter doesn't understand english too well but knows which commands are spoken at a certain time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 But I will say this, even if the RO skipped 8.3.6 every shooter is required to follow the commands of the RO even if not given in the proper order. I would have to disagree with this statement. The commands are spoken in english all over the world. What if a shooter doesn't understand english too well but knows which commands are spoken at a certain time. Very true. The only things the RO can say to the competitor are in the rule book: "Make ready, are your ready, stop, warnings, and if your are finished unload and show clear, if clear hammer down holster". Might be missing one or two there. But you can't give other orders. If you do it is grounds for a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 8.3.7 changed. I don't think this one is directly mentioned in the document that listed the rules changes from the 2004 book to the 2008 book. There are some slight differences. I'll put the 2004 wording in green, as it was the green book. And the 2008 wording in some shade of blue. 2004 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor must not resume shooting (see Rule 10.6.1). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows: 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. 2008 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows: 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. Slightly different. The old rule sent the RO to 10.6.1...which probably gave the RO a bit of wiggle room not to DQ the shooter. (Even though the old 10.4.3 also directly referenced 8.3.7, but you'd have to be exceptionally well read to catch that.) The new version, takes the RO right to 10.4.3...plus, the wording in 8.3.7 is even more clear. Once the command (“If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster”) is issued, the shooting is done. Any shooting after that requires a DQ. I don't think there was any mention of skipping commands in the example that we were following on the other thread (and, I'm betting that if that was an ongoing case, then it would have been noticed ). Regardless, you can't reshoot your way out of a DQ, right? If the commands were screwed up, you might argue a case of miscommunication, but I'd think it to be an up-hill battle. Everybody is supposed to know the range commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I have story that goes with this. It happened under the old 2004 green book. 2007 Area8. I am CRO on the stage that had the cart that had to be pushed backwards while seated in it (for those that might recall the stage). We had a huge number of FTE's on the 4 pieces of steel we had on that stage. Shooters would finish up and know they forget steel think something was off. Then they'd go hunting and pecking around to look for it. It made it challenging to give the "If you are finished, unload and show clear" command...but we endeavoured to do so without tipping off the shooter(s) one way or the other. So, we have a shooter that looking around at the end...to see what he may have forgot/missed. After it appears he is done, my RO issues "IYAF,ULASC". The shooter does. Then my RO starts the command of "If Clear, Hammer down, Holster." But, thankfully for the shooter, my RO didn't finish issuing the command completely...as the shooter saw a popper that he'd missed and he slapped the mag back in and shot it. Having seen that, I was afraid we were going to have to issue a DQ for the shooter. So I broke out the rule book to see what was what...for sure. Since my RO hadn't got to the "Holster" part yet...the shooter didn't have to get DQ'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 .....But thankfully for the shooter, my RO didn't finish issuing the command completely...as the shooter saw a popper that he'd missed and he slapped the mag back in and shot it. Having seen that, I was afraid we were going to have to issue a DQ for the shooter. So I broke out the rule book to see what was what...for sure. Since my RO hadn't got to the "Holster" part yet...the shooter didn't have to get DQ'ed. Very fair-minded of you. Somehow though, it seems as if you are given every opportunity to look over the course of fire and until you are sure that you ARE finished, you shouldn't unload or show clear. Reloading and engaging a target while the "if clear....holster" command is being said is, IMHO, dumb. For one, it won't help your score at all due to the time elapsed, two, you should know the command is being or has been given and that you are pushing your luck, and three....you probably scare the crap out of your RO. I'm sure he was glad you read and interpreted the rule as you did. I know I would be dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Dumb... ? Shooters do some interesting stuff. Though I do see a few that shoot a stage perfectly from time to time. This shooter was just one of many...that took 5-10+ seconds extra at the end of this cof to look around, probably knowing in the back of their head that they had forgot something. Many then took the shot, instead of the miss and FTE. Whether that helped their score or not...? (and we still had six dozen FTE's on the stage) The RO's where pretty "aware" on this one...it demanded attention and respect. It was a good stage. Probably better than I am making it sound. It did get a lot of people out of their comfort zone. (but, I am starting to drift) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 ...until you are sure that you ARE finished, you shouldn't unload or show clear. +1 THAT is the lesson we (as shooters) should take away from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) Yeah, if you have any doubt, keep it hot while you do your quick scan. Once you unload, prompetd by range command or not, you should be done.... If you have already unloaded, flipped the bullet 3 feet into the air and caught it in your teeth, and dismounted the gun, even if you do see a miss you'd like to make up, 99.99% of the time its not going to help your score to reload and conitnue shooting. Take your miss and suck it up. Learning in progress. I only mentioned the "what if the IYAF,ULASC was skipped" part because the writer very specifically said the shooter had unloaded then the RO issued IC, HD, H..... then the shooter reloaded and kept shooting. It was unclear if the IYAF,ULASC command was given in my mind. Not that it matters, I guess, its still a DQ to shoot after that, according to the rules - just as if the RO had issued a STOP during the COF, the shooter is done. Whether or not the Shooter understands English well enough to be able distinguish between the various commands or not...... IMHO its falls on the shooter to understand all the basic commands well enough to actually recognize them and follow them, not just perform like a trained monkey when ever the RO grunts in a particular order. What if the RO yells STOP in the COF, and the competitor says he did not understand English enough to recognize the word? Edited October 16, 2008 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I think some judgement has to come into play with this 8.3.7/10.4.3. The RO must make a judgement call wheter or not the shooter has completed firing the course and issue the proper commands. If the shooter has not cleared the gun and presented it to the RO for inspection by the 8.3.6 command, then it has no bearing wheter the RO has given the 8.3.7 command. The "IF..." in both commands gives some leeway to the shooter to decided if they are done shooting. That is why I think the rule book also has... 8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthpawG26 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 +1 on the previous post. IYAF,ULASC is conditional, because of the "if". It all ends with "..........and holster". The course of fire ends after holstering, AND releasing the grip of the gun. Before this point, the shooter is entitled to continue without consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 +1 on the previous post.IYAF,ULASC is conditional, because of the "if". It all ends with "..........and holster". The course of fire ends after holstering, AND releasing the grip of the gun. Before this point, the shooter is entitled to continue without consequences. 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:..... Note that the rule states "After issuance of this command." It doesn't say anything about "after the command is complied with." Once the command is given, the shooting must stop, if not 10.4.3 will come into play resulting in a DQ. 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I think some judgement has to come into play with this 8.3.7/10.4.3. The RO must make a judgement call wheter or not the shooter has completed firing the course and issue the proper commands. If the shooter has not cleared the gun and presented it to the RO for inspection by the 8.3.6 command, then it has no bearing wheter the RO has given the 8.3.7 command. The "IF..." in both commands gives some leeway to the shooter to decided if they are done shooting. That is why I think the rule book also has...8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3). Well, not really. Note that 8.3.7.4 is placed after the ICHDH command and specifies the process if the gun proves to not be clear after performing the earlier actions. That rule addresses the need to return to U&SC in the case that the gun went BANG! after the trigger was pulled to make sure the stress of the moment doesn't lead to forgetting that the gun still needs to go through the clearing process successfully before the range can be called clear. Granted, if the RO suspects a round is still in the chamber (or a mag still in the gun) prior to the shooter pulling the trigger, the RO should return to U&SC to give the shooter another opportunity to clear the gun correctly before he continues (pulls the trigger) and commits a predictable unsafe act. When a shooter fails to present the gun to the RO for inspection, he does so at his own risk. The failure to present may not halt the continuation of the range commands if the shooter just goes through the motions on his own. I hope we all teach new shooters to take advantage of that very critical second set of eyes and actually showing clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 <snip> The course of fire ends after holstering, AND releasing the grip of the gun. You would have been correct under the outdated green rulebook. The new blue book specifies that the course of fire ends with the command "Range is Clear". That is a distinct and important change since the end of the COF affects a number of possible rulings. The change was meant to end the COF at a specific point under the RO's control rather than the somewhat indistint removal of the hand from the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9146gt Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Hammer down with a revolver ?... a decocker semi auto?? do you have to pull the trigger on a decocker? what about a gun with a mag dissconect? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Hammer down with a revolver ?... a decocker semi auto?? do you have to pull the trigger on a decocker? what about a gun with a mag dissconect?Tom The rules address that. For revolvers, see 8.3.7.2 - you don't have to pull the trigger (but the command remains the same). And YES, you must pull the trigger on everything else. Decocking is not sufficient. See Rule 8.3.7.1 For a gun with a mag disconnect, the recommended procedure (good shooter etiquette) is for the shooter to inform the RO prior to "Make Ready". Then, when you get to ICHDH, you show the RO an empty magazine which you will use to allow you to pull the trigger, then remove it from the magwell when you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 +1 on the previous post.IYAF,ULASC is conditional, because of the "if". It all ends with "..........and holster". The course of fire ends after holstering, AND releasing the grip of the gun. Before this point, the shooter is entitled to continue without consequences. 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:..... Note that the rule states "After issuance of this command." It doesn't say anything about "after the command is complied with." Once the command is given, the shooting must stop, if not 10.4.3 will come into play resulting in a DQ. 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. dj The only problem I have with this is an RO who says I gave the "If clear, hammer down, holster" prematurely and the shooter was not finished with the course. Sometimes I have heard the commands on auto-pilot so to speak and often shooters forget about targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ38super Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 The only problem I have with this is an RO who says I gave the "If clear, hammer down, holster" prematurely "If clear, hammer down, holster", Should only be given after the shooter has unloaded and shown clear, and by doing so saying he is finished, And the RO has seen the gun is empty. If an RO says this before that point then he needs to pay more attention to what he is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 I hope we all teach new shooters to take advantage of that very critical second set of eyes and actually showing clear. All to often, we are the only set of eyes. I've run many shooters that just show me and never look for themselves. Also, I've run into a 45 that had a nasty habit of partial extraction when cycled slowly as when SC. It would pull it out a bit and release it then if you slide forward... BANG. This guy shows me and I see the round hanging from the tube. I look, give a you better look again expression, and repeat IFUSC. He gets it and looks for himself and it takes two more slides before the bullet finally drops down the magwell and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Zaretsky Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 IYAF,ULASC is conditional, because of the "if". It all ends with "..........and holster". The course of fire ends after holstering, AND releasing the grip of the gun. Sorry, the COF ends with command Range is clear and not any other. This, however, has nothing to do with whether the shooter can or cannot to continue shooting. Before this point, the shooter is entitled to continue without consequences. Sorry, I would allow to disagree on this statement too. As it was pointed above the shooter cannot continue shooting after command if clear, hummer down, holster unless he wants to go home earlier. This command is given BEFORE range is clear. i.e. by this time the shooter is ALREADY precluded from firing his gun. Hence, there is no way that he is entitled to continue without consequences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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