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Posted

Range design safety seems to be a grey area depending upon who one talks to. I've been to quite a few practical ranges, and the side berm heights vary considerably from "darn safe" to somewhat worrisome. Few practical ranges I've seen have berm heights in compliance with the NRA range handbook guidelines. So, assuming a standard triangular piled earth type berm, with another squad shooting next to you, with you downrange pasting targets, what is the minimum height you would feel safe with? Obviously, cost is a concern, otherwise they would be 15 feet.

I ask you to respond to the poll only if you have been to at least, let's say 7-10 different practical ranges, and have noticed side berm heights, or have seen incidents relating to side berm heights.

Too bad there isn't more practical guidance on this subject. Thanks for your opinion.

Posted (edited)

You might want to up the feet in those choices. I'd be more comfy with a 12ft or > choice.

Edited by JThompson
Posted

Yep...nothing sh%$tier than pasting targets and getting whacked by birdshot-like bullet splatter from the next bay. I have several "match only" T-shirts with quite a few holes in them from this. I got tired of ruining a few shirts a month and decided to keep my holy ones in rotation. I have become a little sensitive to low berms myself, and 10' is a good start...anything less leads to terrified pasters and paranoid steel re-setters.

Posted

Height is only one factor.... What about thickness???? (which is related to height but is truly different)----and material... (light beach sand is very different from heavy muddy soil).

I'm also guessing that there is a difference in stopping power if the berm has vegetation on it vs. a "bald" pile o' sand

The worst I've seen was filled with fist to head sized rocks... it gave me the chills wondering where the bullets and fragments were landing.

Posted

The poll asked for minimum height so I selected 10' because it didn't go any higher, if he had listed 25' then I would have picked that. I have been struck by splatter from another bay with a 12' berm in use but that is usually caused by a piece of steel that is badly dished and should not have been used. Busy Match Director allowed someone else to calibrate steel who was only concerned whether the steel fell or not and not what it looked like, maybe afraid the MD would want them to go change it. I know of splatter going over a 12' berm, traveling almost 50 yards and other shooters said it sounded like rain on the overhead cover. As for rocks in the berm where it is going to go is anybodies guess but I think we have all heard the ZING of a piece of lead going over head.

If a club were just starting or was thinking of new steel then the forward falling popper might be just the ticket because I haven't read any complaints about splatter at the Nationals.

Posted

At the 2006 Missoula O/L10 Nats the stage I was CRO on and the one next door where trading splatter, chunks of rock, etc. for the whole match because the berm wasn't high enough (probably 8 - 9 feet) and was just a thin layer of dirt over a pile of fist sized rock (as nearly as we could tell). One of my ROs was struck in the back by a .45 bullet moving slowly. We were never sure if this was a bullet that was already in the berm and got tossed over like all the rock or something that was fired and came over/through with, thankfully, almost no energy. I got hit by a golf-ball sized rock and a shooter (Ron Francisco if memory serves) got a nasty gash in his neck off a jacket from next door.

I also think the angle of the berm walls is a factor. Too shallow and bullets can skip over the berm. A lot of the more "mature" ranges I see have allowed their berms to slump down losing height and lessening the angle of the berm wall.

I am coming to think that the best berms are those with concrete block cores covered with copious dirt. You KNOW nothing a civilian is shooting is going through. But at the price of concrete these days....ugh.

Posted

Kimel,

We are looking at using those blocks (2' x 2' x 4') for a protective berm down the side of the 100M Silhouette range at one of my clubs. The quote was about $60 for each block.

I have actually seen where they used old 1 ton straw bales to cut down the side splatter from steel.

That being said a good 15' berm is the best to shoot for.

Posted

The range we shoot 3 of our 4 monthly matches at is OLD and the berms really need rebuilt... most are well less than 10 foot with places probably down to 7. We try to be Very conscious of where and how we set target and steel.

And, by the way, piss on rear falling steel as a good way to consistently ensure bullets leaving the range....

Posted

I question whether the harsh splatter from next door is coming in from low angles that would be stopped by a higher (10-15') berm, or from high angles that nothing but a ceiling would stop. I'm leaning more towards high angle, as a low angle would have to arc quite a bit, meaning very low velocity. This is one area where I could be wrong, and then my whole post goes to hell.

I have been hit by splatter from steel one bay over, bullets (whole) and rocks from the next 1-3 bays over, and while it's not pleasant, I don't think it's an unsafe happening. I am not worried at all about a piece of lead hitting me with enough momentum to do any serious damage. But $hit happens when you're throwing lead around at 1000fps... it's why we wear eyes, even when not at the line. Skipping them over the top is not so much a danger to us as it is our neighbors outside of the range, which is why stages must be set up to minimize the chances of this given certain berm shapes and conditions.

I voted for 8', just because you may have 2 shooters approaching 7' tall on neighboring stages and it'd be nice if they didn't shoot each other. As long as the berm is impenetrable, I'm ok with it as the minimum.

That being said, I'd love if every berm looked like those at USSA or the concrete at PASA.

Posted

Kevin,

I'm hoping you were getting stuff from in the ground at the back of the bay next to you and not from the poppers. There was another stage we had to change greatly because it would have meant shooting directly at some rocks. I'm hoping that if USPSA comes back to Missoula that the MD has time to take lots of pictures and gets measurements so that stages can be selected and located on bays where they are better suited before the books are printed. Hopefully next time we can utilize some of the bays for some long range standards that people were complaining were not available at Tulsa, there are 3 100 yard bays only 2 of which were used for short range stages.

Posted

I'm wondering if height really matters. Before you jump my case, picture this scenario: a shooter has an AD while doing a reload and the gun is pointed at a 45 degree angle. Is 12 feet going to be any better than 9 feet?

I'd like to see more "no blue sky" baffles at outdoor ranges. I suspect this will increase safety. How many bullet holes have you seen on the ceiling of your indoor range. It really makes me wonder......

Posted

Dave,

The berms that Kevin and I were talking range from 8' on the left of his bay to about 12' on the right but I have been hit with stuff from both sides and it was easy to tell from the shooting pattern/noise which side it came from. When ever possible we try to keep steel at about the same reference between bays so steel targets on one bay are not in front or behind those on adjacent bays.

Wooddog,

The rear berm height needs to consider how close you are to people or live stock. We had a range closed here because a 9MM traveled a mile, went through the outside wall of a house, through a kitchen cabinet door and broke some dishes. We had another area closed because rifle bullets were going over a 200' bluff and landing near people/equipment.

Posted

Imagine bullets launched at 6 feet (eye level for a tall guy) pulled high, impacting the 6 foot level of a 7 foot berm that might only be 12-14 inches thick at that height ...

I'm wondering if height really matters. Before you jump my case, picture this scenario: a shooter has an AD while doing a reload and the gun is pointed at a 45 degree angle. Is 12 feet going to be any better than 9 feet?

I'd like to see more "no blue sky" baffles at outdoor ranges. I suspect this will increase safety. How many bullet holes have you seen on the ceiling of your indoor range. It really makes me wonder......

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