New Toy - G35 Airsoft-

[pnmd]

Pistol Pete- there are two types of gas gun- blowback and NON blowback.

The blowback ones does cycle the slide.

The spring ones are really not as good, IMO- but they're much cheaper. I don't think the spring guns cycle the slide.

I'd get the gas blowback for more accurate IPSC practicing.

From what I've read the Desert Eagle model has the most powerful recoil. But it's not 1911 style gun.

[Flexmoney]

Here is a pic from one of the links provided earlier in this thread.

I think there are BB dents as well as real bullet holes...for comparison.

[Mayonaise]

I bought the KWC G19 with the metal slide. I didn't like the Caspian as the trigger doesn't reset like the glock does. The Kwc also allows you to adjust the spin on the bb (they call it Hop Up), which makes it pretty darn accurate.

Good for FOF training and fun. Decent "dry fire" tool as well. The G19 has no problem cutting through two layers of cardboard. I use a piece of old carpet in a box to catch the bb's for reuse.

[Ironman]

This is great stuff! Thanks, I have bid on the ebay SVI but only $50 "below reserve" we will see what happens. I'm still the high bidder.

Jim

[DumboRAT]

All (and specifically, in-order, Shooter Grrl, Icazes, PistolPete, pnmd, and Jim) --

Shooter and All:

I've "known" Peter ("Thumper") from AirsoftExtreme through airsoft hobbyist d-boards/Forums for a while -- feel free to drop the name "DumboRAT" if you have to. =) Definitely tell them straight-up your intention with the replicas upfront, as, in the airsoft hobby/business, the more serious high-end retailers typically have their defenses up especially in CA, where airsoft is under assault from grassroots sources), and thus may take a while to "warm up" as Shooter Grrl said. Let them know where you're coming from and what your intentions are, and they should warm up quite readily to such legitimate uses of airsoft.

Overall, I would highly recommend AirsoftExtreme, as their technical knowledge is outstanding and as their owners are airsoft and real-steel enthusiasts themselves. Their GBB pistol replica technical knowledge (troubleshooting, repair, and upgrade) is among the best in the retail sector as well, which is something that is rather hard to find.

=)

Icazes:

The WA replicas are as reliable as airsoft GBBs can be. As long as you stick with using HFC134a (1,1,1,2 tetrafluoroethane) -- which is the same "duster gas" as you have to blow the dust off your computer keyboard or the refrigerant used in most modern automobiles -- you'll be just fine.

If you intend to use airsoft-specific "Green Gas" (yet another hydrofluorocarbon, typically CH2FC3CH3) you'll want to siphon off about $100 or so from your morning coffee account to [iEVENTUALLY[/i] prepare for the possibility of having an aftermarket upgrade metal (aluminum) slide fitted to the replica, as the higher-compression gas will stress the plastic slide beyond manufacturer's design specs, and - can -, over time (may be a week, may be a month, may be a year, maybe never! just can't tell), potentially cause slide failure.

Using HFC134a (which you can obtain from airsoft retailers in the same manner as "Green Gas"), the operational life of most WA replicas is "indefinite" (i.e. no limit). With "Green Gas," you'll be pressing your luck a bit....but most owners have reported excellent durability/reliability even as such.

PistolPete and pnmd:

Like pnmd said above, the GBB (gas blowback) replicas do NOT need to have the slide re-racked every shot. The gas operating system of the Western Arms replicas, using nominmally around 70 psi, is able to both discharge a 0.20 to 0.25 gram 6mm airsoft plastic BB at upwards of 220 to 250 fps. and also at the same time effect the same cyclic effect on the slide as your real autopistol.

In other words, with the GBBs, they function exactly as the real-deal, with each cycle of the slide chambering the next round. With most models, the slide will lock open upon last round discharged.

The NBB (gas non-blowback) models do not have cycling slides, and their trigger mechanism is typically restricted to double-action pulls which load/chamber the next incoming round. Their slides, as their name suggests, do not cycle. This, combined with their rahter heavy and long trigger pull which do not reset properly, will IMHO make these items much less suited for your specific purpose of being a viable practice tool.

Spring-powered pistol replicas, specifically, cannot be said to be in the same ballpark of performance, durability, nor reliability as GBBs or even NBBs. These el-cheapo replicas have drastically limited effective range and will typically not be able to punch thorugh cardboard targets at any range. Many can only achieve 200+ fps. with use of lightweight 0.12 gram BBs, which means, as compared to the GBBs above, that they produce significantly less muzzle energy. The spring powered replicas must be re-cocked by manually racking the slide PER SHOT/EACH SHOT due to the fact that no mechanism allows for the spring to recover its potential energy after discharge. I would urge that no-one here consider the spring-powered handgun replicas as viable practice tools due to these three very important factors.

As for blowback force or "recoil," with the airsoft GBB replicas, their forces are tremendously limited as compared to their real-steel counterparts. Higher felt recoil forces are derived from a heavier slide in conjunction with the use of "more powerful" (higher compression) gasses. However, the weight of the slide which contributes so much to "recoil" feel will, by the same physics, also slow slide cyclic rate. A lighter slide will cycle faster and "crisper," and will also lead to more subjective accuracy as there's less shock to deal with.

Regardless, it is nearly impossible for any of these GBBs to offer "recoil" above that of a .22 or .25 caliber pistol.

Neither the NBB nor the spring powered pistols have the ability to offer "recoil" as their slides do not cycle by themselves).

As for the various IMI/Magnum Research Desert Eagle .50AE or .44Mag replicas offering "more recoil," it is likely that this assessment is a result of a failure to compare this item with the higher-end WA 1911/2011 replicas. Traditionally, the Tokyo Marui (Japanese) and KWC (Taiwanese) Desert Eagle replicas have been "step-up" pieces due to their mid-range price. As much of this assessment of "which replica has better (more) recoil" is necessarily limited to user experience, this becomes a subjective rating that is hard if not impossible to quantify. Furthermore, the unfortunate fact that most "reviews" and posts done by hobbyists for airsoft are made by rather young members with little reserve for over-enthusiasm or better judgement, it is hard to say if much stock can be put into such writings.

Currently, the Desert Eagle replicas stand at a crossroad. The much older KWC model has a high percentage of factory-defects. Meanwhile, the Tokyo Marui has literally just undergone a complete internal mechanical make-over -- which unfortunately means that we do not know much about its extended durability/reliability issues. This makes it very hard for me to advocate the purchase of these items for guys and gals like you.

=(

At one time, there were Western Arms Desert Eagle .44Mag replicas. However, these are now collectors' items because they have the infamous reputation of being among the only WA replicas to ever be recalled by the manufacturer due to drastic and dramatic factory defects. Stay away from these pieces.

Finally, Jim:

Jim, if you can, get yourself off of that particular auction.

The ProKiller model that you've cited is a full-auto capable select-fire "machine pistol" replica, and unfortunately, there have been some long-term durability/reliability issues/concerns with the select-fire mechanism that have so far baffled all of that particular genre's experts and remains unsolved.

=(

The semi-automatic only replicas are nearly "bulletproof" in terms of internal build, but sadly, this cannot be expanded to the full-auto/select-fire replicas.

=(

------

All --

If you're into the Glocks, the KSC or KWA Glock 17 and 19 models are both very affordable as well as can be nearly bulletproof especially when you purchase one that already has the metal slide installed (which is a popular "kit" option). If you look overseas, the KSC Glock 34 model should still be available. Similarly, if practicing with your EDC sub-compact is your thing, Tokyo Marui, KSC, and Kuan Ju Works (KJ or KJW) offers excellent examples of the smaller pieces.

As for Hop-Up, you will find that this particular design parameter is more intended to suit the skirmish wargame crowd -- it enhances effective range by giving the departing BB a slight backspin.

This, however, means that there will be an extra physical variable at-work on the departing BB (theoretically should further stabilize the BB, but as with all real-world variables, it is rather more unpredictable instead), and will lead to slightly greater variance at closer ranges. Most designed-for-BB-IPSC GBBs actually do not have Hop or have their Hop mechanism removed in order to increase absolute close to mid-range trajectory stability. At ranges between 5 to 15 meters, not having Hop will mean better accuracy overall, in trade for not being able to reach out beyond 20 meters or so.

For your considerations of having a practice replica, you can literally completely disengage the Hop on GBBs equipped with such items to effect the same "no Hop" effect.

If you intend to target-practice out beyond 15 meters, a model with an "adjustable Hop" is recommended. But honestly, that's more of a skirmish wargame engagement distance than one you'd want for absolute accuracy.

=)

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[Flexmoney]

DumboRAT,

Awesome info!!!

[DumboRAT]

<blush>

=)

Just trying my best to bring more legitimacy to airsoft. =)

Again, if anyone's got any airsoft GBB related questions, I'll try my best to answer either publically here or privately via e-mails. And for those cases where I can't help, I'll try to point y'all to those I know who are trustworthy and who can.

=)

BTW, for those of you who are worried about spendings outlay for the airsoft-specific/proprietary propellant gasses, again, please know that there's viable solutions out there which will allow you to adapt the use of common "duster gasses" that are of HFC134a constituency (and thus very affordable when purchased from discounters like WalMart or Costco) or even refrigerants.

If such "substitute gas" use is your concern, please have a read at my "Gas Primer" here:

http://www.airsoftplayers.com/forum/topic....erms=gas,primer

A $3 can of "Fellows" brand HFC134a duster gas, a $2 bottle of silicone oil (that will literally last you forever), plus a reusable adaptor made by Tactical Air Sports (currently temporarily closed due to the owner's involvement in the National Guards, will return on the week of August 3rd, I'm told....) will have you blasting away in no time.

=)

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[a-44978]

i'd like to see a "skirmish" (i think thats what its called)

I have done fof with simunitions witch was cool but high dollar and unattainable for non le

simunitions is a compromise and so is airsoft or paintball.I think airsoft sounds like the way to go.paintball relies on hosing in my opinion and experience.

Anyhoo.......Do they have any airsoft clubs? In FL?

This sounds like a dry-fire godsend.

'

[pnmd]

Check out this skirmish:

heavy duty shooting....

http://squadx.ukairsoft.net/video/squadx384kb.WMV

http://squadx.ukairsoft.net/article151.html

[DumboRAT]

a-

In terms of FoF exercises, unfortuantely, that is out of the realm of my expertice. I am a scientist by training and trade, and therefore am not formally trained in that area.

However, here are a few resources for you:

Mike Pentrack at FPS Magazine (currently the only print US-based dedicated airsoft magazine, Mike is the individual responsible for its inception) and his associates have conducted FoF exercises with various members of the MA State Highway Patrol/Troopers. His contact is:

mike@fpszine.com

Being an airsoft enthusiast, Mike will steer you well in terms of the specifics of applying airsoft to FoF training, and will be able to place you in-contact with members of law-enforcement profession who will no doubt be more than happy to share with you what they took away from such experiences.

The second source is Karl Rehn. Although I am personally not acquainted with Mr. Rehn, he has recently authored an article applying specifically to airsoft and FoF training. The article appeared in the April 2003 issue of the specialty police/law-enforcement industry/professional S.W.A.T Magazine and both the article and Mr. Rehn come highly recommended by members of that (law-enforcement) community. The article is available on-line in Adobe .pdf format here:

http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Archi.../SWAT-Karl1.pdf

Overall, the Rehn article, I feel as an airsoft GBB enthusiast (and speaking only as such, as my technical knowledge of FoF training is nonexistent!), is technically only sufficient in terms of its description and usage of GBBs. Again, you will note that most of the sources cited such as Infinity Airsoft and Airsoft Atlanta specialize in the lower-quality GBBs. Due to the rigors of FoF training and the need for your equipment to be 100% reliable, I would again recommend that you invest a little in your initial purchase to obtain quality replicas that will survive your intended use.

For Glock replicas of all types, look to the brand names KSC, KWA, and KJW (Kuan Ju or Kuan Ju Works).

For Beretta M9/92F replicas, look to TM (Tokyo Marui), KSC, KJW, or WA (Western Arms).

For 1911/2011 replicas, I recommend that you stick with WA.

For "traditional" SigSauer pistols, look to Tanaka (sometimes called Tanaka Works). For the polymer Sigs -- the SigPro series -- look to KSC.

For USP/P8 replicas, KJW is the way to go.

Extremely reliable and durable revolver replicas can be had from Tanaka -- however, while they do feature a swing-out cylinder, they do not utilize removable cartridges/rounds. To simulate tactical/combat/competition reloading, you must look to either the KWC or Marushin replicas, unfortunately, these revolver replicas from KWC and Marushin are marginal in terms of dependability and durability. Another compromise to be made for ALL revolver replicas is lack of any tactile feedback as these models are NBBs (gas non-blowbacks) in essence and function. The Tanaka replicas do feature nicely simulated trigger travel and feel comparable to their real-steel counterparts; both the KWC and Marushin replicas are less refined in this respect as well.

These are currently the only models that I can recommend for/to you in terms of durability/reliability. Although replicas do exist for many other handguns, I would be hard-pressed to make recommendations based on this particular concern.

Curently in the US, true airsoft "clubs" are rare.

Instead, as airsoft here in the US is so skirmish wargame oriented, these organizations tend towards the "team" atmosphere.

On-line discussion, you will find, are rather more community-oriented and less so to do with individual "teams."

In the Florida area, check out Florida Airsoft. =) They are a large cooperative which incorporates several teams, and their organization is akin to a "club" atmosphere.

There is also a very well-recognized national d-board/Forum that is based out of the Southeast (actually in Florida, by coincidence) -- www.AirsoftPlayers.com .

AirsoftPlayers, you will find, is a tightly regulated/Moderated enthusiast Forum, and will have a high signal-to-noise ratio, and would be an excellent place for you, IMHO, to get your feet wet if skirmish-play is your intent, and you're looking for background information.

Overall, as skirmish play incorporates many issues which expand well beyond the scope of GBB pistol replicas, I think that you'll get a good feel for "everything" by giving my "Newbie FAQ" a read:

http://www.airsoftohio.com/dynamic.php?s=&...ewbiefaq&menu=2

My little article is rather more technically inclined, dealing with the specifics of skirmish-gaming gear -- for a better description of general game-play, you should hit up the "additional FAQ's" that I've cited near the end of my article.

However, as a quick one-liner, airsoft in the US is basically a wargaming "simulation"/full-immersion hobby/activity/sport -- much like paintball, only more so biased towards the "survival game" aspect of that game/hobby which was at the root of paintball back in the early to mid 80s, but which has since been steered clear of due to the marketing appeal of paintball as more of a flashy sporting activity.

Many airsoft skirmish players are "disgruntled" paintball players who've been attracted to the more honorable gameplay basis and less commercial influence of airsoft, and who are seeking a more immersion-scenario based game.

=)

Allen

aka DumboRAT

PS: RE - Airsoft FoF training, you may find this thread on the geardo Forum at Lightfighter helpful as well --

http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=73...6343#3706096343

[Patrick Sweeney]

Question: Do the firearms make enough noise to trip a timer?

[Ironman]

Patrick, If I hold the timer right next to my Glock airsoft it will trip the timer which is still set at it's stock settings. My friend got the SV and it has a bigger pop. I am sure if you did not mind a minor adjustment it would work great.

Jim

[DumboRAT]

Jim,

We're trying to get airsoft-based competitive marksmanship contests going here in Ohio, as a part of expanding airsoft's legitimacy overall.

I've been doing a bit of research into what kind of audio timers will be tripped by airsoft discharge, and was wondering if you'd be kind enough to leave the name/make and model of your timer here as a reference.

Thanks!

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[Ironman]

DR, I use a CED 6000. Thank you very much for all the input on this post. I have met some new Airsoft buddies here in Kalif. It sounds like they are having a lot of fun. As far as our sport goes I went to the range yesterday and had not shot a real gun for a month and was pleasantly surprised. I was concerned about the change of power factor but it all fell into place. I really like to be able to go outside at night and turn on the lights and have some fun.

Jim

[DumboRAT]

Thanks for the reply, Jim. Greatly appreciated.

And no need to thank me, really -- just trying to bring more legitimacy to airsoft here in the US, and hopefully in the process also help you "real-steel" guys get your hands on replicas that will actually help, instead of trashy toys that are neither durable enough nor realistic enough for your needs.

=)

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[Feek]

DR, I use a CED 6000. 

We use CED6000 shot timers here in the UK for IPSC style competitions and they work fine with Airsoft providing you wind the sensor up.

Keith.

[DumboRAT]

Much appreciated, Feek! Hope y'all had fun with your first event!

=)

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[Eye Cutter]

DumboRat: aside from the CED timers, will the Competition Electronics timers work

[DumboRAT]

Eye,

Sorry for the late reply --

Are you asking me if I know? If so, unfortunately, I do not know.....

But if you're saying that it does work, thanks for the tip !

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[james h]

Just a little more info from the UK.

Those that shoot gpp have switched to half size classics because of the range limitations of the bb guns turned every match into 5 yrd blags with full size targets.

The CED is the timer of choice (cost/availability) but the pact Mk4 also works (when it works)

Thems that can afford it shoot "customised" Western Arms "infinity's" which have a SMOOTH barrel.

Use of plates/poppers is problematic. Due to the variation in power outputs of the different replicas they have to be set to the weekest (about 1ftlbme (yes ONE)) and so are wind sensitive.

if you have more specific questions i can point you in the right direction.

james

[DumboRAT]

Thanks James !

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[InTheBlack]

great info. That link to the gas primer ain't working for me, and there's no accessable SEARCH function... maybe you have to register first. Or maybe that board just doesn't function well with Netscape.

What is the chemical which Airsoft Atlanta refers to as "top" gas?

Is it possible to get a valve adapter & whip so you can charge a magazine or recharge a cannister from the standard 20 lb cylinders used in the HVAC trade? Would you need a regulator to prevent overpressurization?

[InTheBlack]

Found the Search page at the bottom of the Jump To menu. But it returns no hits for your search term anywhere, nor for "primer" in the Subject line. Can't search only for posts by you; that function isn't working.

Ok, search for subject beginning "My goodness what a difference" and you can find this thing.

This _)&$^%@#%) board's Java won't let me cut & paste any of the text...

Actually this thread has a reference to the Gas Primer as being at

http://miairsoft.proboards2.com/index.cgi?...&num=1044919305

...and of course THIS board requires me to turn the Java OFF to make the text visible...

I wouldn't be surprised if the proprietary gases were mixtures of refrigerants with propane or butane or pentane or maybe even methane. Basically whatever cheap mixture they got from a refinery, blended to achieve a a certain min/max pressure curve without being too flammable.

[DumboRAT]

InTheBlack,

Sorry for the link problems -- unfortunatley, Internet URL-links rarely stay "permanent," and at the time that the original post was written, that had been a valid direct-link. I wish that I had enough computer skills and time to maintain a true hobbyist website myself, but unfortunatley, I rely more on the goodwill and ability of my fellow hobbyists to distribute my writings.

As for the AirsoftAtlanta gas.....

http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/gas.htm

Their #1 package should be "traditional" CH2FCF3CH3, with the #2 package being supposedly true HFC134a (1,1,1,2 tetrafluoroethane).

However, during my visit to their physical storefront (they're a true Brick&Mortar), neither of these products carried a true "contents" listing showing their chemical/empirical formula. As such, I could not quantitatively verify their contents.

The two gasses match, respectively, the two gasses leading the sub-heading for "AIRSOFT Green Gas Canisters" listed here, beginning on the bottom half of this page:

http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/ammo.htm

The three gasses following the items listed above are even more of a mystery, as their contents are again unlisted -- and furthermore there lacks current consensus from experienced *_and_* "detached" (non-profit-involved) reviews on even the qualitative performance of these gasses.

Unlike my other favorite hobby -- high-end knives -- there is an unfortunate lack of serious involvement in airsoft, with only few members of any regional community truly having both the knowledge and experience (not to even mention maturity) to deliver reliable information.

Regardless, lacking the ability and knowledge necessary to independently verify the contents of the various "unlabeled" bottles, I agree with your statement in that it is more than likely that the proprietary products can potentially consist of mixtures of various known and cheap commercial propellants.

Also, yes, you are correct in assuming that should you be able to rig an adaptor to a simple hose assembly, you can directly siphon fill off a bulk supply tank safely. This actually has been practiced by members of our community who hold HVAC-industry related licenses and are able to purchase bulk propellants (especially specialty gasses of different temperature-pressure curves than HFC134a or HCFC22, thus allowing proper compression/pressure necessary to operate gas-use replicas even in sub-zero ambient conditions). Over-fills should be rare and nearly impossible to accomplish provided that you charge the magazine reservoir properly, cutting off the incoming charge (by simply releasing pressure on the fill valve) once "regurgitation" of the ingoing liquid propellant is seen to spurt back from the open valve.

Allen

aka DumboRAT

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

There's a whole bunch of movies here and here if you're interested in seeing actual "IPSC-style" Airsoft matches in Hong Kong.