Larry White Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Last year I built a Rem 700 308, HS presicion with Badger metal, 1/12 Hart barrel and a 12 oz Jewel trigger. I havent shot it much for a few reasons. I wasnt real happy with the scope I put on it for one. This morning I ordered a Nikon Monarch Tacticle 4X16X50 with mildots. I have never used mildots, dont have a clue. Could someone direct me to some material on useing them? Thanks.------------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 One Two Three Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 OneTwo Three Great info there! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgibson Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 You have that written like, "as simple as...." Maybe not so much. Adios, TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 (edited) I looked at several of the tutorials for mildots... and then the Horus vision tutorial. I had more trouble with the mil-dot system. My precision rifle has a Leppy with Precision Reticle modified/replaced reticle. It's a good system but, to me, a lot steeper learning curve than the Horus. My .02. Edited October 3, 2008 by Merlin Orr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted October 3, 2008 Author Share Posted October 3, 2008 Thanks Merlin, lots of info there. I gave two of them a quick look over, I should be a world class expert by bed time. Now I know why the troopers in sniper school spent so much time sitting on the ridge. This will take some time. Anybody got a good range finder for sale cheap.-------------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Larry, I've always liked MOA over Mildots, we used mils in the military and they are OK, since Land Nav used mils as well as degrees it was a not toooooo difficult transition However, moa are a much easier concept to grasp and since most scope adjustments come in inch increments it converts to moa much easier as well. Every thing we see and do gets converted to the measurements that we normally work with, which for the vast majority of us is inches and feet, and moa fits perfectly into that, it even converts to metric fairly easily with practice. just my Opin!!!!! trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Which reticle operates directly in MOA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 I convinced Nightforce to make a revised version of the NP-R2 reticle and it has grown to possibly be their best selling reticle, it's the NP-R1. It took a lot of pestering but it worked out and now I have several real nice scopes set up to my liking for a reasonable price to the public. Here's a few pics of the NP-R1 This one was taken on a railroad right of way so the mirage is thick and it was a cheap digital camera so it's not a true representation of the quality of the glass. The vertical marks are 1 MOA and the windage marks are 2 MOA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M118LR Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 (edited) There is quite a bit of information on how to use Mil-dots on the web. Larry PM me and I will set you up with a little PowerPoint that they use to teach mil-dot use at the Army Sniper school. Also I am sure you know this by now, but you can also use the mil-dots for hold overs, hold unders and also for hold -offs. Edited October 3, 2008 by M118LR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bret Heidkamp Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Mil-dots are almost worthless for competition. To me, they are too coarse. Great for ranging people, not so great for small steel targets. Mil-slashes (like the MOA scope pictures) can work. Keeping the "clicks" in the same values as the reticle will preserve your sanity. If your reticle is Mil, that means centimeter clicks (Horus, S&. For MOA clicks, that's why the NP reticle above works (Nightforce). I can't stand the math of going back and forth! Even better, get the reticle in the 1st plane of the scope and you eliminate worry about what power you're on. (2nd plane reticles are generally only able to "mil" on one power, this is not an issue with 1st plane reticles) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Nightforce will have their MOA reticle scope available in FFP soon so you will have accurate ranging data on ANY power. They also have a few new additions that I am not at liberty to discuss here that are also coming out that will be awesome for the end user at a considerable discount compared to some of the other scopes with like features. It's really a matter of preference and I prefer MOA. About the Mildot reticle being too course, I agree 100%. The above reticle pics I posted are in MOA and are equal to roughly .25 MOA marks. 1 miliradian @ 100 yds is equal to 3.6" and 4 MOA @ 100 yds is equal to roughly 4". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bret Heidkamp Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Nightforce will have their MOA reticle scope available in FFP soon so you will have accurate ranging data on ANY power. They also have a few new additions that I am not at liberty to discuss here that are also coming out that will be awesome for the end user at a considerable discount compared to some of the other scopes with like features.It's really a matter of preference and I prefer MOA. About the Mildot reticle being too course, I agree 100%. The above reticle pics I posted are in MOA and are equal to roughly .25 MOA marks. 1 miliradian @ 100 yds is equal to 3.6" and 4 MOA @ 100 yds is equal to roughly 4". Not to be misleading or trying to start a Mil vs. MOA debate, the Mil scopes I've owned have 1/10 Mil adjustments and are 1st FP. I don't know of any that just adjust in 1 Mil increments. That would be terrible. One was a Horus, which I didn't care for, and the current one is a SB 5-25 PMII which I like. A little coarser than MOA, but results are the same. (.36" vs. .25" at 100) My main point is you should be looking at what you're clicking. Simple as that. I do not advocate folks choosing MOA clicks on a Mildot reticle. I like the fact that Nightforce has a MOA reticle. Even better when it's in the first plane. My only current gripe would be their scopes should come with a zero stop turret already installed... not an upgrade to what is supposed to be a good scope to start with. I've shot with several people that lost the revolution of their turret without a zero stop ... great fun to watch! Although I've done it in the distant past too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Nightforce will have their MOA reticle scope available in FFP soon so you will have accurate ranging data on ANY power. They also have a few new additions that I am not at liberty to discuss here that are also coming out that will be awesome for the end user at a considerable discount compared to some of the other scopes with like features.It's really a matter of preference and I prefer MOA. About the Mildot reticle being too course, I agree 100%. The above reticle pics I posted are in MOA and are equal to roughly .25 MOA marks. 1 miliradian @ 100 yds is equal to 3.6" and 4 MOA @ 100 yds is equal to roughly 4". Not to be misleading or trying to start a Mil vs. MOA debate, the Mil scopes I've owned have 1/10 Mil adjustments and are 1st FP. I don't know of any that just adjust in 1 Mil increments. That would be terrible. One was a Horus, which I didn't care for, and the current one is a SB 5-25 PMII which I like. A little coarser than MOA, but results are the same. (.36" vs. .25" at 100) My main point is you should be looking at what you're clicking. Simple as that. I do not advocate folks choosing MOA clicks on a Mildot reticle. I like the fact that Nightforce has a MOA reticle. Even better when it's in the first plane. My only current gripe would be their scopes should come with a zero stop turret already installed... not an upgrade to what is supposed to be a good scope to start with. I've shot with several people that lost the revolution of their turret without a zero stop ... great fun to watch! Although I've done it in the distant past too! I had a few things going on when I posted my above comment. This is what I meant to say: As far as using a reticle to range with, I like the MOA reticle in the Nightforce vs. the Mildot reticle. One miliradian is equal to 3.6" at 100 yards and 1 MOA is roughly 1" at 100 yards. So when comparing the 2 reticles, the NP-R1 reticle is broken down finer in that each tic mark is equal to roughly 1/4 mil increments. Those folks that you speak of that lost their revolution index... well don't blame Nightforce. "The user needs to be smarter than the tool." Seems like they aren't. We teach that each student should know how far his 100 yard zero is from bottomed out on the scope and write it down (I keep mine in the scope cap) for later reference. We also teach to do the same thing with the windage knob. There's an expensive lesson for free. The NF zero stop is an option, like a magwell, tritium, or fiber optic dot on a pistol, and it costs extra accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 KGUNZ, Agree 100% about students knowing their zero setings from bottom out. We teach them how to read the scope lines so they always can get back quickly even without a zero stop. I shot the Horus vision scope (AKA Horrible vision) out before SHOT in Vegas. At fist you look through it and its like "WTF ARE ALL THESE LINES DOING IN THE SCOPE?" Took a little getting used to and I went in thinking I would not like it and by the end of the time I had on it I liked it. I was whacking the smal Larue steel first round out to 600 without any kind of dialing in. Just looked at the wind conditions and hold on the right line and shoot. Pretty neat. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 I can do the same with my MOA based scopes without all the cluttered vision. With my .308 115 VLD load I can shoot from point blank to 1000 yards without ever touching the knobs or ever coming off the scope to look at a palm pilot or data sheet. Much can be said about a man that knows his rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmilk9 Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 To each his own on reticles and knob adjustments. I have several long guns and different scopes. I like the mil on mil(mil reticle and mil knobs) Once you learn mils its much easier than MOA in my opinion. Both my US Optics scopes have the GAP reticle in them, and 1/10 mil adjustments on the elevation knob. When most people call out your impacts/adjustments, its easier to dial when mil is given. It is rare someone shouts out, " your 3 1/2 MOA" left. It is usually 1 mil left/right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 To each his own on reticles and knob adjustments. I have several long guns and different scopes. I like the mil on mil(mil reticle and mil knobs) Once you learn mils its much easier than MOA in my opinion. Both my US Optics scopes have the GAP reticle in them, and 1/10 mil adjustments on the elevation knob. When most people call out your impacts/adjustments, its easier to dial when mil is given. It is rare someone shouts out, " your 3 1/2 MOA" left. It is usually 1 mil left/right. Depends on where you shoot and who you shoot with. I've heard 1 mil right, 1 foot right, 1 MOA right. It is quite advisable that you be able to speak every language possible. Miliradians was designed for calling in artillery. Artillery just needs to be close enough to hit a house, not the decapacitating/kill zone of a human being. If someone calls a 1 mil correction for me on a target 800 yards away I hold 3.5 MOA and let her rip. It's not that hard. Arguing mils is easier because of spotter calls for civilian shooters is a moot point. Are you saying it is easier to range in mils? The target is 68 inches tall. The distance is 900 yards. What is your mil reading in your GAP reticle that will allow you to engage the torso area with a round fired from a .308 shooting 175gr Fed GMM? To get there with an MOA scope built by USO calibrated in IPHY... target in inches x 100 / MOA read = distance 68 x 100 / 7.5 MOA = 906 yards What would be your mil reading? Target size in inches x 27.7 / mils read = distance 68 x 27.7 / 2 mils = 942 yards. With a .308 that would be a miss, if you could ever get to that point doing the math. Not only is the formula easier using the MOA reticle, but it is broken down finer than the standard mildot reticle. The GAP reticle does give you .5 mil subtentions, but the MOA is broken down finer than that as well and offers more accurate range estimation for the average user. Yes, there are some people that are really good at ranging with a mil reticle, but there aren't that many, competitioins provide proof for that. I have tried both. I prefer the MOA reticle, and I can call corrections in MOA or Mils, and I can correct off them too. It really boils down to what you like better. I had a GAP mil reticle scope and after running some ranging drills with it I found the MOA reticle to be much more accurate for me. Try ranging a 36" steel plate @ 900 yards while in the prone position and fire one round within 1 minute. You only get 1 round. You look through your GAP reticle scope which sees the plate dancing in the mirage. The plate is bigger than 1 mil, but not by much. What do you do? You can't really get a solid reading on it because of the rifle moving with your pulse and breathing. You're on the clock... you have 1 minute. Same scenario with the MOA scope. The plate reads 4 MOA. Same mirage, but still seeing a solid 4 MOA reading. 36 x 100 = 3600 / 4 = 900 yards. Dial in the data, hold off for the wind and touch off the shot. To each his own, I like MOA. I can do the math in my head without the need of a mildot master, palm pilot, or calculator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmilk9 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Kgunz, i hear ya with the math. MOA ranging seems easier, but thats why i have a mil dot master. Most of the guys I shoot with and when i go to the bigger competititons, its seems like everyone is calling in impacts or corrections in mils. I learned it and now its easier for me. I like to hear from folks like you who use the other method, that we can share methods and ideas. just a fun number too, that my .260rem(139gr @2850) at 942yds would still be a torso shot at 906. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Scott, I'm feeling ya on the .260. Had Patriot Arms build me one of those on a Surgeon Action. I like my 7WSM better though. I had a USO 3.2x17 with GAP reticle on a .308 rifle and took it out to a private range to run it through some paces. After sitting a few minutes and discussing the requirements of having to accurately range a target to within .1 mil at 900 yards to achieve a hit, John Whidden and I agreed that the MOA subtended reticles seemed to have a little advantage because they were broken down finer. I'm not talking about corrections here. I don't know that I am going to have someone looking over my shoulder to call a correction to me or if I'll even get a 2nd shot. I want accuracy out of a cold bbl to a degree that allows me to be within 2 MOA at any distance within 1000 yards. I get that out of my MOA based reticles. Maybe I am the weak link, not the reticle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmilk9 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Maybe I am the weak link, not the reticle. Aren't we all. LOL To be completely honest i have never seen the reticle you have first hand, maybe I'd change my mind after shooting one. Thanks for posting your equipment and hope to shoot some distance with you one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Scott you should come out to Alabama and shoot in The Practical Marksman Challenge. It's a match unlike any other. Long range precision rifle and handgun. When I say long range I mean we have targets out passed 1000 yards. I think our longest target last year was a steel man at 1100 yards. This year is going to be even better. We had several thousands of dollars on the prize table including a custom bolt gun from Patriot Arms and an M4 from DPMS. This year we're going to be giving away some handguns also. Every single competitor got at least one trip to the prize table and some got more than one. Most all of the gifts were worth more than the $150 entry fee. The match is based on practical shooting so we allow range finders. The winner of last years match only had 48% of the total points and most of the shots were taken in a natural wooded environment just as if you were hunting. It's a real hoot. I hope to be able to shoot in it next year myself. The match is going to be the 3rd weekend in February. As far as reticles go, I have tried most all of them, don't buy into the elitist hype. I have the option of shooting any optic I want. I just like the MOA reticle with MOA knobs. I know all my data in MOA so I can hold or dial. Do I need to tell you how sweet it is to be able to engage targets all the way out to 1000 yards with a .308 and never have to touch the knobs? All you have to do is call out the target location and the range and "bang...... ding". I never come off the scope. Of course that is with my .308 shooting the 155 Berger VLD at 3050 fps. It is pretty close to the same come ups as my 7WSM with the Berger 180 VLD, just not as good in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 (edited) I can do the same with my MOA based scopes without all the cluttered vision. With my .308 115 VLD load I can shoot from point blank to 1000 yards without ever touching the knobs or ever coming off the scope to look at a palm pilot or data sheet. Are you dialing for wind? Or are you just floating around without the reticle on the target? How long of a tube do you need to get 3000+ fps with 155's? Edited October 7, 2008 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 No I am not dialing for wind if I am engaging multiple targets at different distances. If it is a static target and I am making multiple shots I may dial for wind, but usually it's only elevation then. For example, for F-class I will dial in my elevation and just hold for wind. I hardly ever touch my windage knobs and for many reasons. My .308 built by John Whidden is a 26" Broughton 10 twist bbl with a PAI brake. Chambering can go a long way and John knows how to cut one true/straight and with enough room for the velocity. I don't think it's a patented reamer design or anything but it IS his so I wont get into it. Let me just say it has made him very happy in the Palma matches. For the lighter 155's I like Varget powder. H4895 is also a good choice and you can reach the MV with it, but it's not as accurate at that speed as the Varget is. I like Re15 for the 190 gr pills. It is a touch slower and gives more MV. I am shooting 2740fps out of a Surgeon based Bartlein bbl 26" long with 190 SMK. I don't recommend anyone else trying to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmilk9 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Kgunz, Unfortunately, i'm having a precision rifle the same weekend in february. The one by you sound like a blast. maybe we'll have to schedule something for 2010. I used to hold wind, but now dial it, unless i'm engaging multiple targets too. I just bought some 155 scenars and using varget myself. I just got them last week so i haven't worked up a load yet, i want to push them at 2900fps, I'm using a 22" bartlein built up by GA Precision. My load now is 175smk with 43.6 gr of Varget, shooting @ 2670fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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