Prize Table Distribution

[smokshwn]

Unfortunately match fees are probably the smallest percentage of the costs of shooting a match for me.

[bigbrowndog]

Merlin, click your heels together and say .........................F.I.

BTW, that guy KurtM, has a very good point. I've shot ALL kinds of matches, Steel, 3 gun, Multigun, Archery, Team Challenge, Pistol (ipsc), Shotgun (ipsc), etc. and the very BEST prize tables were never associated with USPSA. And the vast majority did not recognize classes (A,B,C,M,U, Q,R, whatever) there were divisions for equipment., but everyone shot heads up.

Recognizing and rewarding mediocrity should not even be an issue. A couple random prizes, OK fine, but people should earn whatever reward they get. showing up earns you a ticket on the ride, doing well earns you a moment in the spotlight, and maybe some glitter, most of all it earns you a bullseye on your back for the next time, because everyone will be looking at you, to do it again and prove that it wasn't a fluke.

My .02 pfennig

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't care about prize tables. I'd rather pay a lower match fee and shoot more matches.

That would work for some matches, but what about the matches that don't buy prizes. Area 1 was run this year as a low entry fee match, but still had a decent sized prize table ($95.00 entry fee, $127,000.00 Prize table). Very little off the table was purchased by the match. Most of it was donated by our sponsors. Some of them were very specific that they would only donate prizes to a match that gave them out order of finish. Only about $5.00 per shooter was spent on the prize table. Give me back whatever you won at Area 1 and I'll give you $5.00.

Other matches are run differently. Area 2 has a very expensive entry fee but an awesome prize table that goes with it. It's well worth it for most people to pay the extra fee for that match.

As far as giving prizes away to RO's that has been brought up previously and frequently results in hard feelings or other problems. We did that with the 2003 Area 1 and ended up with $30K in prizes that were donated. Split between about 20 staff that seemed a bit extravagant so we gave most of that away to competitors randomly. In 2006 we did a full prize table at Area 1 that was given away randomly as well. I didn't see a huge difference in the number of happy people in 2006 compared to 2008.

This is how I plan to do prize tables at future matches that I run. If there is enough for everyone to get at least their match entry fee back, everyone will walk in order of finish, with possible exceptions for class and category winners if it is a USPSA match big enough to recognize that. For this years Area 1 everyone got at least $100.00 back with most getting substantially more. Some with the Area 1 Multigun.

For the US Steel shoot starting on Friday we don't have enough prizes for everyone. We're going to awards Divison winners and the rest will go random.

This is just my preference but it's the way I'm going to run my matches.

[el pres]

bad chad wrote:

Funny, how in the other thread, I have NOT, at least not yet, been bashed about the head and shoulders for bringing that four letter word, IDPA, into the discussion.

Funny again, how nobody took the bait and tried to run with it.

in my opinion...

What bait ??? I think we are all just done with this subject for another year or so !!!

F&*k ???? Maybe not !! as you were !!

Oh ya, and the match fee is the easy part !!

Edited September 25, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[Wakal]

I for one would like to see Flex change Alex's title to "Best Left-handed Red-headed Turnip Fancier"

devil.gif

-ld

He'd have to prove the "best" part. roflol.gif

(We don't just GIVE those titles out...you gotta earn it.)

Hey...I am NOT...left handed

Alex

[Loves2Shoot]

If you insist on having a "random draw" for gosh sakes, please have it BEFORE the match starts. That would not only give the folks a chance to not have to wait if they don't get their ticket called before they get to the ball caps and ear plugs, it would also allow the folks who win cool stuff to share their excitement with their fellow shooters during the match.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[HoMiE]

I don't care about prize tables. I'd rather pay a lower match fee and shoot more matches.

That would work for some matches, but what about the matches that don't buy prizes. Area 1 was run this year as a low entry fee match, but still had a decent sized prize table ($95.00 entry fee, $127,000.00 Prize table). Very little off the table was purchased by the match. Most of it was donated by our sponsors. Some of them were very specific that they would only donate prizes to a match that gave them out order of finish. Only about $5.00 per shooter was spent on the prize table. Give me back whatever you won at Area 1 and I'll give you $5.00.

Other matches are run differently. Area 2 has a very expensive entry fee but an awesome prize table that goes with it. It's well worth it for most people to pay the extra fee for that match.

As far as giving prizes away to RO's that has been brought up previously and frequently results in hard feelings or other problems. We did that with the 2003 Area 1 and ended up with $30K in prizes that were donated. Split between about 20 staff that seemed a bit extravagant so we gave most of that away to competitors randomly. In 2006 we did a full prize table at Area 1 that was given away randomly as well. I didn't see a huge difference in the number of happy people in 2006 compared to 2008.

This is how I plan to do prize tables at future matches that I run. If there is enough for everyone to get at least their match entry fee back, everyone will walk in order of finish, with possible exceptions for class and category winners if it is a USPSA match big enough to recognize that. For this years Area 1 everyone got at least $100.00 back with most getting substantially more. Some with the Area 1 Multigun.

For the US Steel shoot starting on Friday we don't have enough prizes for everyone. We're going to awards Divison winners and the rest will go random.

This is just my preference but it's the way I'm going to run my matches.

I liked the way you did the Area 1 prize table. I think you did a heck of a job getting all the stuff from sponsors and appreciate your hard work putting that togther. I'll give you the $5 bucks next time I see, you're not getting my shooting bag I picked up.

You can't please everyone and different matches I guess are known for the prize table. Everytime this topic comes up, the more and more I am in favor of a Pro-Am type match with cash payback. Want to shoot for fun, enter as amateur. Want to shoot for cash or prizes and go headsup, sign up as a Pro and show what you got.

[kurtm]

Hey Lawman, it is EASY not to get prizes donated from sponsors, just don't let them know you are having a match. If you don't call them they won't come!

Prize tables and awards chew up an amazing amount of time that could be better spent on the road to get back home. Shoot the last stage, throw junk in car and make smoke, read results when you get home. Why do we have awards anyway? No amount of wood, plastic, or metal will make you a better shooter, only time at the range practicing the right things will do that. KurtM

[Chuck Anderson]

Hey Lawman, it is EASY not to get prizes donated from sponsors, just don't let them know you are having a match. If you don't call them they won't come!

Prize tables and awards chew up an amazing amount of time that could be better spent on the road to get back home. Shoot the last stage, throw junk in car and make smoke, read results when you get home. Why do we have awards anyway? No amount of wood, plastic, or metal will make you a better shooter, only time at the range practicing the right things will do that. KurtM

It's not as easy as you think. Springfield Armory will still call and try to give you free guns, as well as a bunch of other sponsors I've worked with. I tell you what Kurt. I'll do you a favor to help you get on the road a bit quicker. I'll pick up your prize at Benning for you so you can hop in the car and go. I'll keep it, but I know your time is better spent on the road home anyway.

[ffl]

I have read all the complaints and ideas on this thread as well as others.

As I see it from a Shooter point of view as well as from a Sponsor point of view here is my $.02.

1. USPSA it was mentioned does not have large or good prize tables. This is true. I know the reason why and Matt P. is working on getting that problem fixed. I will not expand on it on this forum by a pm or email will get the reason.

2. As for Random or order of finish here are the problems. If it is random then you aren't awarding performance. If you are awarding performance then someone mentioned strict order of finish. How is that fair if we all have different classifications? I might be a C shooter and have a great day and win my class but I am still way below as compared to and A or GM. I have seen several different ways that work good. Top in each class followed by second in each class followed by third etc. until you get to 10th place or so and then order of finish from that. However that only works for matches like IDPA, ICORE or similar formats which use total time or points etc.

For all you match directors out there. Most, no ALL sponsors are either at the match or sponsor the match for one thing. RECOGNITION OF OUR COMPANY OR PRODUCTS. They don't care about placques because they sponsor. What they want more than anything is RECOGNITION AT THE AWARDS CEREMONY IN FRONT OF THE SHOOTERS AND BY ADS OR BANNERS ON THE RANGE. NAME RECOGNITION IS IMPORTANT TO A COMPANY. When shooters see you and your company logo and name on programs, on the range, in the vendor tent, and at the awards ceremony that is what they remember.

I came in 186th overall in the 2008 IRC and I still got great stuff in my bag. more than the cost of entry

Edited September 25, 2008 by ffl

[kurtm]

Hey Lawman, I thought Police men were good at saying NO, don't you have "compassion deficit disorder" too?? Haven't you done your part of D.A.R.E?? Just say NO!!

btw Ft. Benning is too far from home so I usually spend the night and leave out EARLY in the morning, but what the awards do do is chew up alot of my first class drinking time. I would happily let you get my prize for me, but you have won sooooo much stuff over the years you don't "need" anything either. ( I learned that from this thread and the other one ).

No one has told me yet why we need prizes and awards, anyone? KurtM

[badchad]

No one has told me yet why we need prizes and awards, anyone? KurtM

I don't think anyone needs them, but if they are there to win, I want one. I think it will be an achievement when I win my first gun. I imagine after you have won a bunch of them, it's not such a big deal.

[waynewal]

I don't care about prize tables. I'd rather pay a lower match fee and shoot more matches.

Ditto on go to more matches vs buy guns for the big guys

[AikiDale]

No one has told me yet why we need prizes and awards, anyone? KurtM

Excellent question. The excellent answer is to save our gun rights. Let me explain. The greater the value of the awards the more people are interested. The more people are interested the greater the number of participants. Look at golf. It's on TV all the friggin' time. Big purses. You think anyone would bother wandering around a perfectly good rifle range smacking their balls if there were no money in it? Of course there are only a handful of folks who can actually expect to win the big pots but that is not the point. The fantasy, hero worship, fan(atic) base exists because of the big potential payoff and we can watch on TV to see who wins it. You think anyone would seriously consider banning golf with all those duffers out on the rifle ranges every day whacking their balls? No way.

To save our gun rights we need bigger prize tables. Much bigger. You get Budweiser doing a few Clydesdale commercials to advertise the USPSA Nationals or the Iron man 3gun and offer a Million bucks in prize money and you would have every one wanting a gun and a big screen TV to watch the competition.

[bkeeler]

To save our gun rights we need bigger prize tables. Much bigger. You get Budweiser doing a few Clydesdale commercials to advertise the USPSA Nationals or the Iron man 3gun and offer a Million bucks in prize money and you would have every one wanting a gun and a big screen TV to watch the competition.

All cash prize table.

BK

[bkeeler]

NSSA(National Skeet Shooting Association). How about using something like this for a pay out for cash?

http://www.mynssa.com/CMS/NSSADisplayPage....e%20The%20Money

Just a thought.

edit to put in example.

Match fee $100.00 say $50.00 goes toward match $45.00 goes to class pool and $5.00 to champion pool of that division.

You have 74 total shooters in Limited Division. who ever is the division champion does not get class purse just champion purse.

Champion of the Division would get $370.00

GM 7 shooters 60/40 split $189.00/$126.00

M class 9 shooters 50/30/20 split $202.50/$121.50/$81.00

A class 12 shooters 40/30/20/10 split $216.00/$162.00/$108.00/$54.00

B class 21 shooters split same as A class $378.00/$283.50/$189.00/$94.50

C class 18 shooters same split as A&b class $324.00/$243.00/$162.00/$81.00

D class 7 shooters 60/40 split $189.00/$126.00

What do you think? Like I said just a thought. The more shooters the bigger the purse.

I took the number of shooters from this years Area 3 match the unclassified shooters not entered for prize money.

You can move the money around anyway you want less toward class pool,more toward champion pool..... you get the idea.

BK

Edited September 25, 2008 by bkeeler

[Flexmoney]

I removed a couple of post. Prize table threads are one thing. Sniping at one another is out, though.

We don't need the popcorn and the IBTL (In Before The Lock) ***stuff*** either.

- Admin

[steel1212]

If you insist on having a "random draw" for gosh sakes, please have it BEFORE the match starts. That would not only give the folks a chance to not have to wait if they don't get their ticket called before they get to the ball caps and ear plugs, it would also allow the folks who win cool stuff to share their excitement with their fellow shooters during the match.

IN section did this and it goes pretty well. You get what you get when you sign in. Awards are after the match and goes pretty fast.

I'm still all for the you earn it table though.

[kimel]

I've gone this way and that on prize tables over the years. I rarely have taken much off them either random draw or order of finish that I actually kept. Much of it I just gave away. I've taken steel and steel certificates and then used that to build my local clubs. I've never sold something I took off the table. Several times I have had proxies for friends and just divided my "take" among their prize table winnings. They got a better deal and I didn't have a bunch of junk I didn't want. (No, honest, they gave away zucchini on the prize table and you won a half-dozen of them!)

Personally I prefer certificates. Much easier to get home and with airline weight limitations being what they are I sure don't need anything heavy to try and get home anymore.

I greatly appreciate the sponsors that donate the prizes and I always write a thank you note when I cash in my certificate or order something else from that company. I've even seen stuff on prize tables during preview (or when working as staff manning the table) that I was impressed enough with that I ordered one when I got home.

What I am not overly thrilled with is taking money out of the shooter entry fees to purchase stuff for the prize table. Use those fees to put on a better match, pay for lunch or a better lunch, drop the entry fee or even to compensate those that make the match happen what it actually costs them to get there and what they burn up out of their personal parts supply to make the match work. I've lost track of how many boxes of pasters I have "donatated to the cause" over the years when matches ran short.

[Gwhiz]

the match is the thing for me. I don't care much for the raffle type of prize distribution, but it has never kept me away from a match. Whatever is done with prizes or plaques tell everyone before the match and stick to it. If you're giving class winners, whatever, give one to the 1st C Rev (for example) even if he/she is the only C Rev. It is not his/her fault your match did not have more people in the class.

[tk4]

If you win a gun based on your performance it will always be something special to you. If you win the same gun in a random draw, it's just another gun.

I didn't shoot the Indiana Sect this year because it is random draw. It just takes the excitement out of it.

For those who say it's about the shooting. Isn't it more important to be able to perform when the stakes are high.

[Dan Sierpina]

Prizes by performance.

Assigned prizes for position. That way, if you have to / want to hit the road, you still get what you earned.

If classes are used, you compete in your class and HIGHER. If a B shooter finishes ahead of all the Master class. The B shooter takes High Master. The Master that let a B shooter beat him gets 2nd, and the ribbing!

And most of all. High Overall

[boo radley]

I think it was Mark Twain who said, "How happy the smallest thing make us, when we feel we've deserved it."

Don't much care how a match chooses to do things, beyond:

1) I prefer lower match fees and NO prizes in favor of prizes that have to be purchased and commensurate higher entry fee.

2) Cash/certificates/clothing in lieu of "things", if you must give things out.

Otherwise, what does it matter? Valid arguments can be made for and against every system of distribution.

It's still a game-slash-sport. I guarantee that working hard going back to school for a degree, or on a 2nd job, will earn prizes far beyond any time spent "working" at the range. Bigger picture, and all that -- not that anyone wants it.

[gose]

* Bulk of the prizes (80-90%-ish) in order of finish / division, the rest by drawing

* No prizes at all, except maybe plaques/awards, for the classes.

[Chills1994]

BK wrote:

NSSA(National Skeet Shooting Association). How about using something like this for a pay out for cash?

http://www.mynssa.com/CMS/NSSADisplayPage....e%20The%20Money

Just a thought.

edit to put in example.

Match fee $100.00 say $50.00 goes toward match $45.00 goes to class pool and $5.00 to champion pool of that division.

You have 74 total shooters in Limited Division. who ever is the division champion does not get class purse just champion purse.

Champion of the Division would get $370.00

GM 7 shooters 60/40 split $189.00/$126.00

M class 9 shooters 50/30/20 split $202.50/$121.50/$81.00

A class 12 shooters 40/30/20/10 split $216.00/$162.00/$108.00/$54.00

B class 21 shooters split same as A class $378.00/$283.50/$189.00/$94.50

C class 18 shooters same split as A&b class $324.00/$243.00/$162.00/$81.00

D class 7 shooters 60/40 split $189.00/$126.00

What do you think? Like I said just a thought. The more shooters the bigger the purse.

I took the number of shooters from this years Area 3 match the unclassified shooters not entered for prize money.

You can move the money around anyway you want less toward class pool,more toward champion pool..... you get the idea.

BK

There would be only two conditions that I would want cash pay outs:

1. You get rid of classifications entirely. Sandbagging is too big of an issue, and in my opinion would only get worse when there is a financial incentive to do so.

Only the division champion would win the pot, then.

2. Everyone is considered unclassified when they show up to the match. At the match, at least 3 of stages would be "classifiers". The classifier stages's scores would also be used to figure in the total score for the entire match. People will get rank ordered by how they do on the classifiers and then whatever cash pot is left at the end of the match is dolled out based on their new "classifications" and overall placement.

I do NOT know that much about skeet so I do NOT know if there are divisions or not like there is USPSA (or IDPA). Division jumping sandbagging in USPSA (IDPA) makes it too easy to be a "sleeper" when one goes to a major match.

I'm really thinking if one is wanting a cash pay out in these sports then matches like Phil Strader's Pro Am are right up your alley.

You want cash, sign up as a Pro.

At the amateur level, with all of our divisions and classifications, then throw money into the mix, it just makes sandbagging too easy.

in my opinion

I'm remembering to "back in the day" when I first got hooked on "action pistol events". I saw something quite by accident on ESPN back in either '94,'95, or '96 . I saw some bearded guy going "BANG"... "CLANG" then swinging over "BANG" ... "CLANG" at these brightly colored steel targets while walking down this "path".

Why did that match ever stop?

Why did ESPN stop covering that?

MAN! OH MAN! Was I hooked!

Bringing big money for purses into a match and getting it televised.... I dunno about that. Seems kinda like "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Which one is the cause and which one is the effect?

What ever happened to Sportsman's Team Challenge sponsored by Chevy or Jeep?

I guess that match still goes on, but is it still televised.

Methinks the Pro Am style of match is gonna be the closest thing our pistol games are gonna get to big purses, bigger sponsorship, and television.

I've probably drifted this thread too far.... but I do like the idea of smaller match fees, no prize table, just come out to shoot a bigger more stages higher round count major sanctioned match for the fun of it, and a chance to win a 15 dollar trophy for your class/division.