Winchester Autocomp?

[lcs]

Ramshot Silhouette? Works very well for Super. I have been running it as high as 175 pf for more than a year with zero pressure signs or other issues.

And in every Super-ish gun I've seen it in (inc. my own), its dirty as hell, leaving yellow "corn meal" (ie, unburned grains of powder) all over the place. Not acceptable for a gun where reliability is a concern. In Major 9, it appears to burn clean with no issues. Tried WAP back in the 175 PF days, in Super, and had the same results - dirty as hell, and not as good as other powders for working the gun.

Of course, maybe you like dirty, flippy, and unreliable

Not sure how you meant, that is, its obviously faster than WAP/Silhouette, which works in Major 9, but not Super, May be you meant WAP as Silhouette works well in 9 Major and 38S/C.

No, I meant exactly what I said. See above.

How'd you know what kinda women I like?

I found Silhoutte to be really clean in Major 9, have not seen any cornmeal in 38SC yet. May be Ramshot cleaned up their act.

[XRe]

How'd you know what kinda women I like?

I found Silhoutte to be really clean in Major 9, have not seen any cornmeal in 38SC yet. May be Ramshot cleaned up their act.

That's possible, certainly If I were running Major 9, I'd use the stuff - it seems to be one of the best options. But, I've never seen it be clean in Super, so... (and I'm fairly tolerant in that regard, but the stuff I've played with has been nasty dirty).

[kgunz11]

As the others said, "fat lighter" or "lightered" wood is what is left behind in stump form of a harvested pine tree. It's kind of like a curing process. It will never rot and the resin in it makes it VERY flammable. It's lights extremely easy. Down here in the South, a small bundle of about 2 pounds worth of splintered lighter the size of your finger and about 10" long will sell for $5 and up a bundle.

I'm assuming they grind it up and use it to make the powder some how. Since it is as close as it is, I should tour the plant some day.

[larry cazes]

That's possible, certainly If I were running Major 9, I'd use the stuff - it seems to be one of the best options. But, I've never seen it be clean in Super, so... (and I'm fairly tolerant in that regard, but the stuff I've played with has been nasty dirty).

Dave, you certainly live in a different world than me Not squeaky clean but not HS6 by any stretch of the imagination, either. Clean enough and very consistent over the chrono in 38super in 3 separate guns. I switched to it from 7625 after buying an 8lb jug that wouldnt make major with a full case.

Oh Well, to each his own......

[Jman]

Looks like AutoComp is a swing and a miss for 9/38 major. Might have some use with light Steel Challenge loads on compensated guns. Also appears to have some possibilities with .40 open. The 135 and 155 grain bullets loads might be worth a pound for s#!ts and grins. Got to say, what was Winchester thinking? Head scratcher to me.

Jim

[XRe]

Dave, you certainly live in a different world than me Not squeaky clean but not HS6 by any stretch of the imagination, either. Clean enough and very consistent over the chrono in 38super in 3 separate guns. I switched to it from 7625 after buying an 8lb jug that wouldnt make major with a full case.

Oh Well, to each his own......

We may be seeing different results - but the stuff I used ended up with half-burnt "cornmeal" powder grains all throughout the gun. Not just carbon buildup and that sort of thing, but lots of little yellow-ish grains/flakes all around. WST did that on me in .40, too. I've never tried HS-6 in Super, just 9x21 loaded to 9x19 OAL ("back in the day") - it was pretty clean there. 7625 was downright squeaky clean by comparison, and 4756 was cleaner than that, even (I went 1500 rounds without thorough cleaning once w/ 4756, just re-lubing the gun... had some accumulation in the extractor tunnel, but otherwise, everything just had a fine coating of soot, and that was it). I'm running N105 now - its noticeably dirtier than most other things I've tried (noticeable buildup of carbon gunk in 100-150 rounds), but nowhere near what Silhouette was for me.

[Beans]

Of course, maybe you like dirty, flippy, and unreliable

How'd you know what kinda women I like?

Song: I like my women on the trashy side by Sawyer Brown.

In my younger days, I would have agreed

[nYdGeo]

Me thinks this is a repackaging of Win Action Pistol.

Joe - I kinda doubt this. WAP is already being sold as Ramshot Silhouette.

I present WW296- H110, W231-HP38

WAP being sold as Silhouette isn't really relevant.

But It may not be WAP in fact from comparing the data the new powder seams to give a little more velocity with the same powder charge which would lead me to believe it's a tad faster than WAP making it even more worthless for open major. Of course it could just be a variable in my older data or test barrels used.

The science really isn't as easy as fast or slow. I knew loads of people that used and liked Action Pistol as their open powder way back when, though I did not. The 'too fast for open major' statement becomes irrelevant once we move out of the dark ages and realize that burn rate is little more than a baseline tool, and is almost meaningless to loading.

IMR7625 has a faster 'burn rate' than both of these other powders and yet remains an extremely popular powder for open major in 9mm, .38 Super, Supercomp, etc, with many M & GM shooters and more than one National champion preferring it. If burn rates are 'the guide', then 7625 should be a horrible powder for open major. A powder that sits so close to AA#2 in burn rate should be like a limited load in an open gun, shooting very soft but not working the ports well at all...yet somehow it appears to do both.

I provide the info above without bias as I don't use 7625 myself; I've always been more the 'huge charge of #7 or N350 behind a 115gr' kind of loader for 9mm or .38 Super as this has always provided me with the flattest shooting performance.

Another great example, VV-N350 has a burn rate only slightly slower than 3N38 yet uses a much smaller charge to achieve the same velocities; the science of this put very simply is that N350 has a much higher specific caloric rate...it produces more energy per grain at much the same burn rate. On a personal note, I believe that anyone that says that they had difficulty making major or saw bad pressure signs loading major in 9mm with N350 is doing something very wrong.

I believe that as long as we retain some of these old ideas as facts in our minds, like too slow or too fast for "x", it is in fact very difficult to objectively test different loads. Our belief system absolutely will flavor our results. It's part of our being human and flawed by nature. Along with other personal preferences, this is why in various threads you'll read not only conflicting but absolutely contradicting data regarding the performance of the same loads through nearly identical pistols.

A single load may indeed feel very different in two pistols of near identical construction, but I do not believe that the exact same load of "x" powder, bullet and brass cannot burn super-clean in one pistol of type ABC and burn absolutely filthy in another pistol of type ABC. I also believe that it is highly unlikely that the same load in two nearly identical pistols can shoot 'soft & flat' in one pistol while providing 'heavy recoil and I lost my dot' performance in another, but that is simply my belief and certainly not established fact.

Much of the above is why blind testing is the only way to get truly objective results. The evidence based on burn rate alone may suggest that Autocomp should not be a good open major powder, but in these forums we appear to have a couple of proper blind tests where two different human beings that at that time did not use Autocomp in their current load, chose the Autocomp powder as the best overall performer. To me, these are truly objective, valuable results.

Finally, if any of this sounded lecture-ish, I apologize as this was not my intention. My only goal is to hopefully improve the understanding and objectivity of load testing, and thereby provide us all with much more valuable test data. Thank you for your time.

[CocoBolo]

Ok, I've read stories both ways on AutoComp both sides well supported from folks that know what they are talking about. I bought some when it fisrt came out and traded it off when I heard the first reports that it would not make major.

So I had to find the truth of the matter, loaded up some test rounds for my 9 mm shorty with Brazos ThunderCompSX. None of the loads below showed signs of too much pressure.

125gr Zero JHP set at 1.140 temp 70 (all 10 shot runs) MagTech small pistol primers. Trash brass picked up on the range not sorted and just run thru a Hornady die at loading. All rounds loaded on Horndy LNL, light crimp.

N350 6.8gr avg 1241 fps 155pf ES 47 SD 15

AutoComp 7.0gr Avg 1361 ES 32 SD 10 pf 172.12

AA#7 9.8gr avg 1324 ES 18 SD 6 PF 165.5

HS6 8.1gr Avg 1312 ES 42 SD 14 pf 164

3N37 7.8gr Avg 1354 pf 169.250 ES 22 SD ?

115gr Zero RN set at 1.155

HS6 8.8gr Avg 1429 ES 47 SD 15 pf 164.335

In the feel contest, HS6, AutoComp, AA#7, 3N37 in that order. N350 didn't make it close enought to be rated.

Ultra flat category went to the 115gr HS6 load at 8.8gr.

[SLM]

125gr Zero JHP set at 1.140 temp 70...

In the feel contest, HS6, AutoComp, AA#7, 3N37 in that order. N350 didn't make it close enought to be rated.

Ultra flat category went to the 115gr HS6 load at 8.8gr.

I just want to make sure I'm reading this right... You're loading 9mm Major rounds at 1.140 inches long? Just making sure I'm reading this right.

[CocoBolo]

125gr Zero JHP set at 1.140 temp 70...

In the feel contest, HS6, AutoComp, AA#7, 3N37 in that order. N350 didn't make it close enought to be rated.

Ultra flat category went to the 115gr HS6 load at 8.8gr.

I just want to make sure I'm reading this right... You're loading 9mm Major rounds at 1.140 inches long? Just making sure I'm reading this right.

Yes, all the testing I did was at 1.140. Thats the size that fits my CZ guns. I have pushed the next round of testing out to 1.160. These are 125gr Zero JHP's, magTech small pistol primers, and range pickup brass, the 115 is std RN Zero 1.155 since I didn't re-adjust the die, the crimp is just heavy enough the bullet won't move with firm pressure, aka 3/4 turn on the crimp die. I also decided to make them longer in the next round so they don't fit in the wife's CZ if she got hold of one I'd never hear the end of it. I paint them with Red Dykem, that way I don't pick one up by accident. No intention to load a second time. The nice thing with AutoComp is that it only fills the case about 2/3 and no spillage. I loaded up 500 today with AutoComp, when the pound is gone I will go to HS6 just a little better feel.

[CocoBolo]

**** Important correction on OAL for AA#7 ******

Just went to load a batch of AA#7 in 9 major and learned something new. I had just ran a batch of AutoComp Loads at 1.160 and when I started loading AA#7 they grew to 1.180. I turned down the die a 1/4 round then a 1/2 but they still kept coming out 1.180. Leasson learned its a compressed load and the bullets just come back up to 1.180 with 10gr. So don't try loading them 1.140. It appears my gun will run lenths longer than 1.185 as they drop fine in the barrel. I suggest that with AA#7 you use 1.180 or longer. I use a Hornady belling die its a little differt than the dillon and opens the case up a ways down.

When I ran the test batches I set and checked the press in the first round, and probably went with that and did not notice they grew with the AA#7.

Sorry for the mistake.

[matt2ace]

**** Important correction on OAL for AA#7 ******

Just went to load a batch of AA#7 in 9 major and learned something new. I had just ran a batch of AutoComp Loads at 1.160 and when I started loading AA#7 they grew to 1.180. I turned down the die a 1/4 round then a 1/2 but they still kept coming out 1.180. Leasson learned its a compressed load and the bullets just come back up to 1.180 with 10gr. So don't try loading them 1.140. It appears my gun will run lenths longer than 1.185 as they drop fine in the barrel. I suggest that with AA#7 you use 1.180 or longer. I use a Hornady belling die its a little differt than the dillon and opens the case up a ways down.

When I ran the test batches I set and checked the press in the first round, and probably went with that and did not notice they grew with the AA#7.

Sorry for the mistake.

I run 1.185 OAL for all my loads through my STI. I get very consistent results for AA7 at 10.2gr (171PF) at this OAL. I have come to prefer longer OAL for 9 major. Loads are un or less compressed and they feed just fine. I have gone as long as 1.19 without any problems.

Edited March 22, 2010 by matt2ace

[chbrow10]

FWIW, Front Sight had a good article on Autocomp in thier latest issue. I think i am going to give it a try. Seems to give higher velocities than the usual powders at a lower pressure...