prreed10 Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 We were discussing this at a sanctioned match last week. When the final scores from a sanctioned match are posted and someone wins their class by 15-20 seconds, especially at Marksman or Sharpshooter what do you think? Do you think, "Wow, he was really on today," or do you think "Sandbagger" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcelr8hard Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 We were discussing this at a sanctioned match last week. When the final scores from a sanctioned match are posted and someone wins their class by 15-20 seconds, especially at Marksman or Sharpshooter what do you think? Do you think, "Wow, he was really on today," or do you think "Sandbagger" ? The classifications if you look at them have that much time in a class. ssp ex 98.83-120.00 ssp ss 120.01-152.73 So it is very feasible to have a 20 second deviation. Butch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Twenty seconds sounds like a lot --- but if there are ten stages, that's about 2 seconds per stage. If there are some additional strings --- then it;s less time per string. Wouldn't the more useful question be: Where am I losing two seconds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Well, especially at marksman and sharpshooter level, you can improve ALOT in a couple months. Consider that classifiers are only required yearly. So, if you do one in early spring and shoot a major match in the summer, that leaves 3-4 months to practice and/or attend professional instruction. You didn't sandbag, you got better. Now, you'll get a bump, and you'll need to work even harder to get to the front of the pack again. I'm reminded a bit of a George Carlin joke, about driving. Everyone driving slower than you is a moron. Everyone driving faster than you is a lunatic (paraphrased). Transfer the joke to our sport = Everyone worse than you at a match needs to practice. Everyone better is a sandbagger, and needs to move up a class (unless they are a master, in which case we need to make a grand master class for them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 (edited) It also depends on who shows up to shoot the match. On any given day, Joe Blow can beat everyone in his class by 20 seconds at matches A, B & C, and just as easily lose horribly at matches X, Y & Z, especially if they are small sanctioned matches with low turn out, but not necessarily. edited for spelling. Jeez. Edited September 13, 2008 by Steve J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 We were discussing this at a sanctioned match last week. When the final scores from a sanctioned match are posted and someone wins their class by 15-20 seconds, especially at Marksman or Sharpshooter what do you think? Do you think, "Wow, he was really on today," or do you think "Sandbagger" ? My first thought is not sandbagging, but it does pique my interest to go look at this person's scores at their local club. This happened to me as a Marksman. I shot an almost Sharpshooter score on the Classifier, but could not break out. Then I won handily a month later. I had a great match. No screw ups, no penalties, and reloads were right on. The match fit my style of shooting, that is it contained things I am good at. I guess others did not. I let the jeer of "sandbagger" go when it was shouted from the crowd. I' m old, never did see well, and it is getting worse, I shoot from my street clothes, IWB holster with 190PF ammo, and I worked the 3 days prior to the match, including being an SO. So I let it go, cause it didn't fit me. kr There is a $5 fine for whining. You are what you do, everything else is just talk. Gaming is a personal admission that you can not win on a level playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prreed10 Posted September 13, 2008 Author Share Posted September 13, 2008 Well, that is pretty much right on with what we were saying. Someone blatantly tanking a classifier is different than someone who brings their A game to a sanctioned match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bell Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 In 07 at a sanctioned match, I won SSP/SS by 15 seconds. I had a good day and I generally don't shoot the classifer worth a damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigdawg Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 IMHO the IDPA classification is a reflection of how you shoot the classifier course nothing more nothing less. A good friend of mine and I both shoot SS ESP and can not seem to break into the expert level. Every monthly match we finish in the top of ESP expert. I am not bashing IDPA its just my observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 In 2002, as an Expert, I was the Washington state CDP Champion, beating the second place (Master class) shooter by 20 seconds. No sandbagging, I was just ON both days of the two-day match. It was kind of a religious experinece, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder6 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Sanctioned matches, you do this and you get your class bumped up. Sort of limits your ability to hide :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Gaming is a personal admission that you can not win on a level playing field. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Gaming is a personal admission that you can not win on a level playing field. -rvb Same thoughts here RVB? Gaming is what one does when they participate in the game of IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Similar thoughts. If you're at a major match, and you're not "gaming", you're not playing to win. Since gaming is working within the rules, nothing is stopping the non-gamer from using the same techniques. It is still a level playing field. If you want to handicap yourself because of a personal line you draw between gaming and not gaming, I welcome you to do so. I will continue to reap the benefits from maximizing what I can do within the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Truer words were never spoken. (Or typed, as the case may be.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Man y'all talk like you are winning the Nats every year. None-the-less I will take that as confirmed. On the same note, I got to see Vogel, Sevigny, Miculek, Buckland, Nichols, Nesbitt, Dave O. etc shoot the Nats the last two years. No 100 gaming questions, no head games, no hedging on the start position. Just show up, listen, shoot, and move on. Very refreshing. kr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 We were discussing this at a sanctioned match last week. When the final scores from a sanctioned match are posted and someone wins their class by 15-20 seconds, especially at Marksman or Sharpshooter what do you think? Do you think, "Wow, he was really on today," or do you think "Sandbagger" ? Don't waste the energy thinking of anything but MY shooting....The stuff I muffed and the time I wasted and the points I dropped. "I" being the only thing "I" have any control over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 (edited) Some people don't think the classifier is a fair measure of one's ability to play in matches. So it's more legit to beat the competition to get bumped. Like people have said if you classify early in the year and practice well... you can easily make large strides at matches later on. Edited October 8, 2008 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I guess that could work, right up until you make Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 (edited) The appearance of sandbagging is built into the classifier. Most people can shoot up close reasonably well and with some speed. Some shooters are very fast up close, but lack the ability to shoot accurately at any kind of distance. If you take a shooter who has some ability to shoot fast, but has yet to learn to be truly accurate he will classify low because what he is bad at (shooting accurately at speed and distance) is 30% of the classifier but usually only 5 - 10% of a sanctioned match. Stages one and two of the classifier most resemble the shots you will see in a match, but stage three of the classifier is where most shooters earn their class. Edited October 8, 2008 by Duane Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gb32 Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 All the gaming you don't see on the range got done the day before. Don't think for an instant that the top guys don't have a plan for attacking each stage well before they walk onto the bay. Now to address the actual topic: I think at the sharpshooter/marksman level you have to look at what type of stages there were. Typically a shooter at that level is pretty good at some things, not so good at others. If the stages play to their strengths then their performance is elevated. If not, then it declines. And for some people that's just enough sucess to keep them from working on their skills anymore than they do. My observations, no more, no less. Gary Byerly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Where's the "scoring" question? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 (edited) I have yet to shoot the classifier. I suspect I will classify as a MM. Am I a sandbagger? Edited October 9, 2008 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 It also depends on who shows up to shoot the match. On any given day, Joe Blow can beat everyone in his class by 20 seconds at matches A, B & C, and just as easily lose horribly at matches X, Y & Z, especially if they are small sanctioned matches with low turn out, but not necessarily.edited for spelling. Jeez. agree on that....especially if the shooter has not stayed up on the game between a match..or has switched to a different division and firearm platform...of all things,i saw his happen to a shooter this summer,struggling from within on CDP and SSP and gave up on both and has turned to the revolver... I have yet to shoot the classifier. I suspect I will classify as a MM. Am I a sandbagger? some would say yes based on your classification from another shooting sport,but there is nothing they can do...now once you are classified as MM and get bumped on your 1st and 2nd and 3rd match,,then while at master,then try another division as MM,then yes you would be a grandbagger ..this was one of the questions my AC sent around to MD's in the area ..should it be "ok" for a MD to give a "known" shooter a bump based on their shooting abilities...and in another question,based on their current class from another shooting sport..or..based on sending the info to HQ and let them decide...i said yes.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 One of my buds went to a local match and was classified Master as he walked in the door. I think it's wrong. Just because he is a USPSA GM................ Well..Maybe that is a good call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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