.45 ACP and Small pistol primers

[Carlos]

Sorting .45 range brass last night revealed several of the (realtively) now Federal Non Toxic cases w/ headstamp "Federal NT 45 Auto" and you guessed it - small pistol primer pockets! Just to test, I de-capped one of these cases and loaded a small pistol primer into the 650 and sure enough, it seemed to prime just fine - have not fired any to test.

I can imagine this being a hassle if I happen upon one or several of these during a run on the speed demon Dillon 650 - it will slow things for sure and probably ruin a LP primer in the process - oh well, one more thing I have to look for prior to loading.

Alternatively, if I find enough of these, I might load them up for "lost brass" matches.  

[EricW]

This is so fantastically annoying...  Now I have to rigorously sort what I never had to before.  

Grrrrr..........

[shred]

Actually there have been runs of small-primer .45 brass in the past, but most of them were so long ago that you don't see them often.

[Patrick Sweeney]

And the very first .357 Magnum cases were large pistol primered.

This is bad on the part of Federal, but entirely understandable from a manufacturing and inventory perspective.  Let us hope the rest either avoid it, or they all switch everything at once.

[EricW]

I guess my deal is, if the ammo manufacturers are going to start configuring ammo any damn way they please, why not just close SAAMI now?  What's the point of an organization that promotes a common standard if there isn't really going to be one?  

[Carlos]

Sent this directly to Federal w/ link to this discussion.   No, I do not expect them to make any changes - I challenge Federal to surprise me. Not holding my breath.

"Hello Federal! Please take a look at the discussion about your new NT product on the Brianenos.com website forum.  In short, we do not understand why you choose to use small pistol primers on your new NT brass for .45.  Other companies have made non-toxic ammo WITHOUT the use of small primers so I do not believe that you were required to use small primers. Was it a cost consideration? Understandable, but still unfortunate for we who reload.  Please consider discontiuing this type of .45 brass. Very best regards, Douglas C. Johnson

[Carlos]

Fear not intrepid reloaders and die-hard BE'ers! Federal replied! Problem Solved!! Amazing Dillon-esq customer service!! Here is the comprehensive reply from our esteemed friends at Federal:

"This type of cartridge works with our non toxic primer combination for

optimal performance."

Thank you, Federal, thank you so very much.  Could the response have been more patronizing if they tried?

D.

Top experts do not agree.

(Edited by Carlos at 11:20 am on Dec. 12, 2002)

[gm iprod]

I asked a local ammunition manufacturer why would Federal run to expense of using small primers in the NT.

He said "what expense" they would have to set up for it anyway and they can do what they want at no real extra cost"

"oh" I said.

He continued, he is of the opinion that they used the small primer to get a more efficient burn, using a small primer keeps the quantity of compound to a minimum and that will mean they can use a hotter compound to keep the unburned powder hence polution to a minimum just ask anyone who shoots 6mm PPC.

But they won't tell you that!

[Guy Neill]

The reason for the small primers in the Federal NT 45's is the priming compound.  The lead free compounds are much more brisant than lead based compounds.  This leads to a probelm with peening the breech face in some guns with continued use.  CCI-Speer and Winchester addressed this by enlarging the flash hole to reduce the back thrust from the primer.  Federal chose to go with the small diameter primer to reduce the area (and, thereby, the force of the breechface) and they also crimp it in to further prevent the primer from moving back against the breech.  From their viewpoint it is a practical solution, but shows that reloading the cases was not a priority consideration.

Guy

[shred]

Yeah, but do they make NT 10mm?  Small-primer 10 would rock!  I'd even put up with a crimp for that.

And on a different note, do we really need large pistol primers anymore (assuming we could magically swap over all the brass already out there)?  454 Casull uses small (rifle) primers, so if you can ignite that lot, you should be able to ignite anything with a small primer.

(Edited by shred at 9:54 am on Dec. 13, 2002)

[EricW]

"...do we really need large pistol primers anymore...?"

We surely don't.  Not for handgun cartridges anyway.  Getting rid of Large Pistol primers altogether would be a step in the right direction.

[ewokUk]

One of the revolver shooters at the World Championships was using Winchester brass with small primers.

I never found out who it was, I just got given one of his moonclips by mistake by the range crew.

Discussing this with the local guys down there, they seemed over the moon with the idea. Apparently they find it very difficult to get hold of large pistol primers down there???

[Patrick Sweeney]

That would have been me. I hit Ecuador with 200 rounds of my match ammo, and had to scrounge ammo in-country until I could dive intot he Armscor trailer. I used that stuff mostly on Tuesday, but still had to use a few moonclips worth of it Wednesday.

It hit 6" low at 50 feet, grouped like s**t, and didn't make Major. But it was all I had for six or seven stages. I tried to use it only where I could start, or had an obviousl reload where low, crappy hits didn't matter.

On the plus side it all went off.

[9146gt]

What I have heard from the reloaders is that they cannot meet the no (low)lead requirements with large pistol primers....but small no lead pistol primers do meet that requirement.

Tom

[Rob Boudrie]

The Federal NT cases I've seen in 40 have primer pockets which are a bit too small to fit the regular small primers. Fortunately, the primers uses are copper, rather than brass, in color so this makes them easy to sort out if the have not been reloaded (It is *sometimes* possible to fit a small primer in a 40S&W NT case, but not always).

[wide45]

The Federal NT 40's I have reloaded have a standard size pocket. They are crimped, which tends to prevent inserting a new primer. Remove the crimp, and you are good to go.

[rick_in_lb]

The Federal NT 40's I have reloaded have a standard size pocket. They are crimped, which tends to prevent inserting a new primer. Remove the crimp, and you are good to go.

I also picked up som Federal NT 40's at the range, one of our local FD members was shooting them. I was impressed on how clean the brass was, just like new. I deprimmed and reloaded. Primers fit with no problem.

One answer that puzzled me is , how could moving to small pistol primers be a step in the right direction. Large or small primers still make the powder ignite. If we go to small primers then we might have to adjust our powders, but maybe I am wrong. Of course the last part refers to 45's.

[Canuck-IL]

Carlos:

...Other companies have made non-toxic ammo WITHOUT the use of small primers...

I've only seen Win NT with small primers and the Federal...who has made NT with a large primer?

/Bryan

[Guy Neill]

The original CCI and Speer Cleanfire ammunition in 45 Auto used large primers, though they did enlarge the flash hole to reduce the back thrust. I think the original Winchester Winclean followed along as well. Federal was the first I know of to use a small primer in the lead free stuff, further adding the crimp to prevent peening the breechface. Winchester has, I believe, changed to the small primer, but I don't know if it is crimped. Unless a recent change, the CCI and Speer Cleanfire retains the large lead free primers, but with added input from Federal side, this may have or may still change.

Guy

[Canuck-IL]

Interesting...never see anything but WinClean around here, and not much of that (thank god!)

Thanks

/Bryan

[Sc0]

Don't forget the enviable search for the SPP .45 Super brass.... After firing up my 650 for .45ACP I looked at every piece of brass to ensure the use of LPP. Fear not about detonating primers, my decapping pin was pushed up somehow and not depriming I caught it by the 4th round due to primers coming out of the ski chute. It's possible to ignite one but not if you are paying attention like an operator should. Besides LPP are helpful, a few less parts to swap out when converting over to Rifle Calibers that use LRP.

(though logistically I would prefer all pistols to use SPP)

[Harmon]

i picked up approx 600 winclean 45s with small pistol primers

I loaded em and shot them till they cracked, shooting with federal small pistol primers, clays powder and 230 rainiers, they shot great, no missfires, no hangfires and nobody wanting to snarf up all your brass!

i really wish all 45s made from 2006 and on had small primers, that would be NICE.

wonder what would happen with a really out of tune 45 whos firing pin hits were WAY off center? big primer is no problem, small primer could be a big problem!

[9146gt]

Now all we need is an easy way to sort them...large and small primers and .45 GAP

Tom

[dickwholliday]

i picked up some factory 454 Casull brass the other day and it was loaded with small primers.....so maybe we don't need the large primers afterall....D I C K