Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Scared Need Advice


Doggorloader

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 50
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

My gun did not blow up from too hot a round as I have shot over 2500 at this load with no problems

Dog,

This attitude can get you hurt. You can load 25,000,000 rounds and not mean a thing. A 550 CAN overcharge.

BTW, 2500 is a very small number.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dog, I've had this happen twice. Once about 10 years ago and again last summer. The first time it was 11 grains of Bullseye under a 230 lead bullet and last time 11.6 grains of 231 under the same type bullet. The first time scared the crap outta me and distroyed a nice pair of Remington shooting glasses, a magazine, and left some nice black stripes on my aching hands and some brass in my face.

ANother time two of us had just set up a 550 and were taking turns loading and talking way too much. Somebody forgot to manually index a round. It happens. I am more careful now to always look inside the case at the powder charge. Once in a while, this will also prevent a squib load. And I always wear the safety glasses. Especially when reloading

The second time it only startled me, but I knew instantly what had happened, and so I started to laugh. But, the guy I was shooting with nearly had a siezure! It blew the mag out and broke the tooth off the mag catch. Yep, zapped another pair of shooting glasses too! Both times were double charges without a doubt.

The moral of hte story? It's a dangerous world. We play with dangerous toys. Always wear safety gear and try to pay attention.

But then, tie the throttle down and go till you see blood or smell $#!t.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My experience, exactly. The Dillon sizing dies of several years ago did produce a, "Coke Bottle"shape, which Dillon advertised and promoted. Dillon sizing dies of the past few years, in 45 ACP, do not do this. Using the sizing dies without, "Coke Bottle", shape cartridges after loading has led me to extensive feeding problems due to the cartridge OAL changing randomly during the feeding cycle. Changed to another sizing die of different manufacture, which did size the brass sufficiently to support the bullet at its base, "Coke Bottle", shape.

Strange. I don't doubt what you're saying, but I bought my Square Deal set up for .45 ACP, and its dies, so long ago the Square Deal hadn't even been in existence very long at the time. It's always produced ammo so nicely resized the loaded rounds will drop easily into a case gage cut to SAAMI minimum specs. Working the brass into a "Coke bottle" shape just seems to me a way to work, and wear out, brass unnecessarily. But whatever makes someone comfortable, they should do - within the bounds of safety and common sense, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a couple of possibilities:

(1) If you are charging the powder bar with a spring (Dillon), you can inadvertently double charge. All it takes is something unexpected happening where you move the handle back and forth a bit, the powder bar is actuated with the slight movement of the expander. It can also happen with the 650. I had something like it happen and found a double charge (I always check after any irregularity). After analising what happened, I removed the springs and let the mechanics do the job (on the priming action it must force the powder bar back, it is spring loaded and yes you must adjust it. At that time you will have advanced the shellplate).

(2) Bridging may also be a cause of no charge in the first and a double charge in the next round. This may happen with (course) flake style powder and small diameter "droptubes". (Keep it clean as well).

(3) With a 550 forgetting to advance the shellplate may occur but most will think to be on auto-pilot. Slight distractions during reloading are the cause of most problems. As a rule: "check after any distraction". Usually it is you holding the gun!

Visually check or use a powder check. That will catch most.

Wonderfull machine that 650! My reloading time is cut down tremendously!

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say likely bullet setback. Here is my .02$

I shoot a lot of pins, current recipe is 5.1 WSL(titegroup) with 235 gr pinbuster.

I got a new lower for my pingun, thought it was setup correctly. Ramp was not done properly. Bullets were hitting the ramp and pushing back into the case. I finally had a KaBooom. Scared the hell out of me. Ruined the mag, detonated a round in the mag, the whole nine yards. brass was bad shape, what I could find. Everyone I showed it to, to a tee, thought double charge. I randomly pulled rounds and checked them all spot on (loaded on a 1050, no interuptions, even though I am human...) I finally figured it out, and got the ramp done right. Shot the rest of the 1500 plus rounds loaded in that batch, not a one problem with them. I shudder to think of my old Second Chance load, a 215 swc at 1050.... :o glad you are ok, and to think. I cleared my gun, checked it over, and started checking the OAL of the loaded rounds chambering, and found it out. I did load up different ammo and kept shooting as well...Ah youth....... :blink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dog,

In an earlier post you mentioned weighing your cartridges,,,,

If you did what I thought you did, you can't rely on that due to variability in weight of your bullets, brass, and etc.

You could have a load that is just a few grains over max behind a bullet that is a couple grains under the 230 your expecting and which could possibly produce a round that weighs an acceptable amount but still KB on you since powder could potentially make up the difference.

Anytime I have a questionable lot,,,,,,I'll pull the bullets, not worth losing an eye or worse over......I can buy components,,,,,,,can't buy an eye. :D

I may have misunderstood you,,,,,if I did,,,,sorry about that......

H4444

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have weighed all remaining 200 rounds and have discarded (3) that are .5 grains oveweight. Shot first box of 50 tonight after having my Kimber Gold Match examined by my Gunsmith with clear Ok. They all shot exactly as before the accident and I pulled the Mag half thru all loads and measured OAL and it kept steady. Took the powder funnel to work this AM and polished/lapped it to a slip/ snug fit to a factory new Winchester new brass case. Approx. .ooo5 less than the original Diameter. The factory supplied diameter on the powder funnel was terrible with tool marks and striations and you could see brass gaulling on the imperfections. I am surprised Dillon does not lap these critical diameters. I am sure it was expanding my cases ahead of th bell. It might be worth a suggestion to them.

Not sure what caused my experience but it has really made me leary when I shoot. I am also convinced 5.2 grains Titegroup in the 45 ACP is Hotter than Hot. Why can the manuals be so errant on the caution side?

There is no way to know what caused my problem. I now know my crimp was inconsistent, my charge on the hot side and I could have 2X charged one round in 300.

I have reduced my load to 4.8 grains Titegroup. Polished and diamond lapped the powder funnel for a slip fit and will try a 100 % visual on the powder charge.

It still won't stop the feeling I have when I pull the trigger and hope the bottom plate on my gun doesn't erupt in my hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Larry Cazes

Sounds like a lot of good theories on how this might occur. Stepping back it appears that the most likely cause is a combination of two borderline issues.......First a charge near or beyond the published maximum compounded by what may be excessive setback due to insufficient case neck tension. Blaming this on a double charge due to a 550 is possible but is a very remote possibility. I have heard a lot of theories about how the 550 is susceptible to double charging if the shell holder is not manually indexed and on the surface this seems plausible. A more careful analysis of this machine shows that any failure to index the shellplate should cause one or more other failures to occur in the loading cycle and would be immediately apparent to anyone who is using reasonable care. For instance, if the shellplate is not indexed after a cycle, the case in the resizing position already has a primer seated and you would notice that you cant seat another. You also would notice that case in the seating station already has a bullet seated. Do not let this experience keep you awake at night but rather learn from it and move on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I took a reloading course a while back and the instructor told us of a story about someone who had a similiar problem except with and AR-15. When the shot was fired the magazine grenaded out the bottom of the receiver broke into pieces and stuck into the shooters leg while at the same time destroying the barrel and many other components of the gun. When they researched the problem they discovered the person who reloaded the ammo mixed 2 seperate bottles of powder. It was the same name brand powder and the same type (not sure of which) but for some reason the two didn't respond with each other. I'm sure this isn't your case but I just thought I would point this out.

Keep us posted on how you are making out and how you are coping with the fear of this happening again. Just take it as a learning experience and try to move on.

Pete

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really have a tough time believing that bullet setback can blow up a 45ACP - unless the "setback" was someone beating the bullet into the case with a hamer. Look at the pressures listed in the loading manuals. Max press according to Hodgdon in any load is about 17,000 psi. Let's say you're running hot at 20 kpsi. That's still less than 2/3 of what 40 and 9mm run in a typical load. I'll have to pull my SAAMI manuals, but I'm pretty sure most brass isn't supposed to blow under 35-40 kpsi. If your 45 blew up because of bullet setback, it would have to be set back a couple or more tenths of an inch - that's a lot. I realize that pressure tends to spike when powder burns at a higher rate, which is caused by reduced case volume, but we're talking practically double the pressure. Not likely...

Eric's Theorem for the day: 45's blow up because of over-charges, obstructed barrels, grossly defective brass, and not much else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am 99.9999% maybe sure that it was overcharge and I do not know if it was double but when it was touched off it was a mind blower. I am pretty meticulous with the proceedure but It could be as simple as stopping to adjust the case bell and hitting the powder funnel 2X and starting back up with a brain cramp.

I now have a cardinal rule. If I stop on the 550B for any reason, quality check, whatever I check with a mag lite both station 2 for any charge and station 3 for a double before restarting. No matter what. Also at any pull of the handle that doesn't complete a round. It will be the law.

The polishing and lapping of the powder funnel has made a great improvement even on the handle pressure so it could have been a factor.

I would think powder funnels would be a great candidate for carbide as the finish could be like a mirror and last forever. I might consider trying TIN coating the steel one as well. It adds lubricity and abrasion resistance. Even though brass is soft it is abrasive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My boss hade dinner with JB hodgdon on Friday and I asked him to comment on why 5.2gr of Tightgroup would cause this.

He "speculated" (after checking the Hodgdon Manual) that you have put too hot a load too many times through your brass and a case failed. 5.2gr is just under 10% over what the manual suggests as a maximum. He said it is a simple case of an overload. If you were also unlucky enough to slightly over charge the 5.2gr setting by any other amount of bad luck then BAM.

My experience with ball powders is that they do not like being over loaded as they give insufficient warning that overpressures are present and / or a case failure is imminent. You should have checked the primers more rigorously after the first load and you should have checked the loads over a chronograph. This would have given you reasonable warning and information to adjust the loads.

Ball powders go nuts with pressure quicker than many extruded or flake type powders. Tightgroup is a fairly fast powders which are also intollerent to over charging. Put the two together and you are now fully aware of the results.

Do you own loads, check them regularly and get a good chronograph. It will be cheaper than a new gun and easier than learning to wank left handed.

Eric W.

Hatcher did some tests on 45ACP ammo and the brass in an unsupported barrel will let go at under 25,000CUP. The 45ACP is a little thinner in the web area than both 9mm and 40S&W. 9mm and 40 were desinged to operate at 30,000CUP, the 45 was designed to operate at 19,000MAX. I am not sure but I think 17,000 CUP is about 18,500PSI and the difference is expotential, it is not a linear conversion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eric W.

Hatcher did some tests on 45ACP ammo and the brass in an unsupported barrel will let go at under 25,000CUP. The 45ACP is a little thinner in the web area than both 9mm and 40S&W. 9mm and 40 were desinged to operate at 30,000CUP, the 45 was designed to operate at 19,000MAX. I am not sure but I think 17,000 CUP is about 18,500PSI and the difference is expotential, it is not a linear conversion.

GM.

Mea culpa. I didn't bother to read the units column. I could have sworn I just read a loading table with pressures listed in psi not too long ago, but obviously I was hallucinating.

I'm not disagreeing, but I do think the key word from Hatcher is "unsupported." This would only really apply to possibly to Glocks and older, custom 1911's of questionable origin. I really do think that the 45ACP is the most forgiving of all the cartridges and nothing but a gross overcharge (1.5 - 2.0 X) or a case failure will blow it up. If I find a $200 thompson at a gunshow sometime, I just might put my money where my mouth is and prove it.

Where's Clark when we really need him... :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other than Para-Ordnance and custom guns with supported chambers, 45 ACP pistols in the 1911 pattern

are unsupported. This includes Colt, Springfield, Kimber, etc, also Glock. Blow out of 45 ACP cases when using range brass

does occur with reloads which are within SAAMI pressure specifications. Anyone shooting 45 ACP with reloads

is well advised to have a supported (ramped) barrel installed. Otherwise, a case blowout with a proper reload

will eventually occur, its only a matter of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

crazyaboutguns,

Hence the development of the 45 +P and the 45 Super cases, they have progressively larger webs to help offset the small unsupported section of a standard barrel.

Go to this link and scroll down to “A Kimber in .45 Super® for under $8 ? - Part I” and they have a picture showing the differences. The article it’s self (all 3 parts) makes interesting reading for any 45 1911 shooter/reloader.

Ed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am 99.9999% maybe sure that it was overcharge and I do not know if it was double

It would be unusual to have an accidental overcharge that wasn't double. The usual cause is a distraction of some sort so if you double your attention following any interruption you'll (hopefully) avoid any more mind blowers.

By reducing your powder load you've also reduced the risk of a recurrance due to a hot-load/brass-fatigue combination, but I'd still be backing the double charge theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eric,

You are not halucinating. You were just looking at a different page or a different manual.

The Hodgdon manual is full of this thing. Nearly all the data for Hodgdon powders is in CUP and nearly all the data for the Winchester Powders is in PSI. It is most prevalent in 38Super, 38Special and 45ACP. This i swhy you must never switch data between same or similar burn rate powders from different companies. You can estimate and give a crossover a try, but usual reloading care about reducing a new load should prevail. Hodgdon is not the only culprit. This is why I usually consult at least two other sources before I do or try anything different. CUP is a better way of measuring pressure but is more expensive than using peizo electric gauges. It gives a more consistant measurement and is obviously prefered by those who own balistic labs. The peizo electric method is easier to set up and a measurment can be taken off an individual firearm, Oehler 43PBL is the most obvious unit that you or I can purchase (if you happen to win the lottery tell me how it works out :lol: ).

crazyaboutguns is right about unsupported chambers. I have just traded (Sat) a near new Colt in 45 and it has a std (unsupported) barrel, a Kimber that I am looking after for a friend(and is carefully tested regulalry to make sure it still goes and stays sighted in for him) is unsupported. I have always used 45ACP+P cases and have never bothered to try and set records for the 45 as it shoots way better in and around 175pf anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CUP is a better way of measuring pressure but is more expensive than using peizo electric gauges. It gives a more consistant measurement and is obviously prefered by those who own balistic labs. The peizo electric method is easier to set up and a measurment can be taken off an individual firearm, Oehler 43PBL is the most obvious unit that you or I can purchase (if you happen to win the lottery tell me how it works out :lol: ).

GM - take this witha grain of salt, or maybe the whole shaker.

I used to use the piezo systems all the time in different applications. The accuracy is very dependent on how they're setup electically and installed. If the results are inconsistent, it's probably due to a lack of commitment on the part of the user, not the technology.

I thought CUP would by far be the cheapest technology. All you're doing is compressing a copper cylinder and measuring the change in length, no?

IMHO, CUP units are total bullshit because they're useless as engineering units. They're almost impossible to derive meaningful conclusions other than X load is hotter than Y load. I've seen one statement that claims there's no way to calibrate between the two (which mathematically strikes me as bullshit - fit a polynomial to the data and be done with it - it ain't rocket science.)

Rant mode off....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just my .o2 on the " unsupported barrel " thing.

I have put a considerable number of rounds through unsupported barrels ( the standard JMB designed 1911 variety ) I have never seen a case head separation, even with " unpublished " loads.

Barring the rare defective piece of brass the likelyhood of this happening in a normal barrel is pretty slim. (unless pressure is very very high )

Excessive throating will increase the area of the web that is unsupported and cause the area of the case where the brass is thinner to bulge or rupture. Kuhnhausen's books detail this measurement.

JB Hodgdon IMHO may be right on the money in his explanation, bulging and resizing brass will eventually render it defective.

If you wish to experiment with loads beyond the norm, use once fired , or at least fairly youthful brass.

Travis F.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eric, rant away. I like a good discussion.

I agree that CUP should / would be a cheaper way to measure things, but I have been told that it is not. Some people are of the opinion that if you had to set up again measuring with the copper crusher is too costly to start from scratch. It is an older, some say antiquated way of measuring pressure, and many people don't know there is a difference and they make easy mistakes. I have done it myself, to the detriment of many a fine firearm, but I learn more each day. When used properly it does give direct comparisons though. It seems it is best used in Universal Recievers and other neat things that many people just can't afford. It probably is cheaper to buy copper than strain gauges, but I suspect that you have to have a really consistant supplier of the exact type of copper that gets squashed exactly the same way each and every time when subjected to pressure. Plus a whole bunch of other equipment that keeps as much as possible the same. As the copper washer is usually placed behind a cartridge, inside a tightly headspaced barrel, CUP is based on the back thrust of the cartridge so it is measuring the pressure at the base of the case. PSI is usually measured on the side walls of the chamber and/or barrel. PSI can also be taken at many points along a barrels length. CUP cannot.

I like the idea of the peizo electric strain gauges as they are something that most people that have a modicom of mechanical ability can probably set up properly, but they must be set up properly, no system however brilliant can deliver accuracy if incorrectly installed or set up. Once you know how to do it for one firearm most others are similar enough that you can manage it accurately, and you can leave the gauges in place and test many loads many times. CUP requires a new washer each time and that makes it real slow to do. You could in theory strain gauge test a Machine Gun. More importantly you can test a load under field conditions, not in some climate controlled laboratory. Not that that does not have a place, as consistancy in the information available in vital.

I also agree that there has to be a way to exactly get (or if not exactly, as close as you can practicably get) a correlation or comparision between the two types of data, I just don't know how to.

I have been known to push things a little in some of my rifles when I feel there is an advantage or a percieved benefit. I tend to do the opposite with my competition handguns as the rules for most games say 'this is the MINIMUM', so I try to stick as close to that minimum as is possible and still get the accuracy and reliability I need. I tend to go by published data, the test in my firearm. If something is seriously out of whack, I will generally find that I made an error or the firearm and / or a component has a problem.

Most manufacturers of ammo seem to use PSI nowadays, this is easier for most people to understand (me especially) and have a sense of where they are going. I also suspect that the newer equipment that is in use today is of the peizo electric gauge type. Oehler seem to lead the way and they supply many in the industry with equipment for load testing. It can be used on regular firearms and not just on universal recievers. Although I was of the opinion that the copper crusher can be made to work in a good firearm of sound construction???????

I have never actaully seen CUP testing done so my information is based on what I have been told by people in the industry or have read. I have seen the Oehler 43PBL in use and it is a sensible way to derive comparative information. I would like to own one as I have built a couple of odd ball wildcat cartridges and would like to know (more accurately than I currently do) what kind of pressures I am working with. I have to work to a maximum pressure that is derived by checking primer flow and casehead expansion. I now stay within safe limits and if case wear is high I have pushed too far and then have to back off.

I like Travis's idea of using new or near new brass. That also keeps the variables out.

Apologies for the thread drift.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a link to Hodgdon's web site. http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/45acp.php According to them, your load is over by about .4 grains. This could be sufficient to cause a piece of brass to let go. It sounds like either an overload, as opposed to a double charge, possibly combined with a weakened piece of brass is the most likely culprit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole thing started back when I first loaded for my 45 and started with Bullseye. The mess of soot all over me and my gun made me search out a cleaner burning powder.

I read and was also told by my dealer that Titegroup might be a good choice. It was. It burned very clean and the accuracy was outstanding.

The load came from The Sierra #5 manual as my other manuals did not have Titegroup. On page 818 they call out 5.2 grains as the accuracy load using the 230 grain FMJ. Thats what I wanted, accuracy, not a bomb.

I am going to call Sierra and ask their thinking on the matter as I believe it is too much.

I have also rethought my course of action. I am scrapping the remaining rounds and will reload a safer charge.

The fired casings I have from the same loads do not exhibit any noticeable signs of over pressure. Just the one that blew up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fired casings I have from the same loads do not exhibit any noticeable signs of over pressure. Just the one that blew up.

I think this is what makes it more likely that it was an accidental double load rather than an overload, but if it were the first in a series of failures, the precautions you are taking should ensure that you don't ever have to find out. Stay safe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I e-mailed one of Sierra's ballistic team members and had him read this thread as well before he returned this reply:

Dog:

I read the forum once I found it. The maximum charge listed by Hodgdon on their web site, their 27th manual, and their annual manual for the 230 grain FMJ FP jacketed Hornady Bullet is 4.8 grains. The maximum amount listed for the same as well as three other Hornady 230 grain bullets is 5.2 grains according to the 6th Edition Hornady manual page 830. That is .3 of a grain more than Hodgdon showed and was not the problem at all as opposed to what Ross Carter had to say. There is more of a cushion built in than that. Besides that, the Hodgdon data refers to a Hornady, not a Sierra. Its odd that you would pick up on that as the rest of the responses in the forum suggested an overload. I suggest you read http://www.sierrabullets.com/xring/index.c...tion=vol10nol#5

Unlike alot of forums you were getting some pretty good advice there for the most part. You probably did not get a full double charge, but you got enough that it was heavy over-charge. You did not get a detonation. If you had there would not have been enough gun left to have checked for cracksin the magazine well, slide and so on. I've loaded on Star Universals, Ransom Grand masters, and Dillons for many years. It is extremely easy to get an overcharge with a progressive press. This sort of thing will happen to shooters whether handloaders or factory loads. I used to shoot 100,000 plus 45 ACP's a year. I can't say I ever blew the magazine or the grips off, (which is what usually happens in a gun with a non-supported chamber and a heavy overload), but I was very lucky. It can happen to anyone at any time with factory or hand loads. Do not become complacent. Remain a bit scared and you will probably be OK. The 550 is an excellent press. It is probably one if not the best for the competitive shooter. Look the gun over very closely or have it magna fluxed if in any doubt. I don't sky dive or base jump. I like both feet on the ground, yet every time I pick up my 45 I am taking a chance. So are you. ........... is the other heavy pistol shooter here but he is out at matches for a while, a week or so. Hit him with this as you did me and see what he has to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...