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Scared Need Advice


Doggorloader

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Went out at the end of today to enjoy shooting a box in my 45 ACP at my backyard range. I shot better than normal and using 8 shot clips had two rounds left which I put in to finish it off. The first shot detoanated jamming my gun, blowing the bottom plate part off of the magazine and sent a shower of brass pieces into my glasses. It was a shocker. The brass from the round had a hole in the base just before the extractor groove and the round in back unfired had the bullet pushed back quite a bit. I need some help here figuring out where I messed up. The load I have been using for over a year is:

230 gr XTP

5.2 grains TiteGroup

1.230 COL (per Hornady)

Win. bulk brass

WLP primer

The brass was on its 3X load.

Secondary, the gun seems fine and fired OK after. The magazine is shot. Do I need service on the gun?

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Sorry I just checked my books and could find any data for TiteGroup.

I download a lot for my 45 long colt.

I have had the side of the casing spilt.

Sense I shoot the ruger it didn't give me any problems.

I have never had any thing like that with my 45 acp,

but I shoot unique and herco.

I have taking them down to 4.5 grs. of both unique and herco.

Mostly I like shooting 5.5 grs of them behind 252 gr. lswc.

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When you say detonated, you mean that you chambered a round and when you squeezed the trigger, it blew a hole in the case, jammed your pistol and bloew out the floor plate on your mag; correct?

If so, it had to be a double charge of powder.

What kind of loader do you use, and were you distracted when loading that batch, in any manner. Noise, child, phone, computer, movies, dinner, etc?

All I can think of.

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Yes, if we could please understand the type of reloading equipment you use and process. It could be a double charge or you might have a insufficient grip on the bullet with the case, like you need more or less of a crimp. The fact that you mentioned finding a bullet set back in the case is scary.

It would probably be a good idea to look over the barrel and slide very carefully under bright light and magnification. If you're not comfortable with this find someone who is. I'm sure the chamber was stressed.

I recently had my first experience splitting a barrel. It was during a IPSC match and I had a reduced charge load which sent the bullet to the end of the muzzle but not out. The case ended up in a classic smoke stack jam so I cleared the jam and let another one go. Game over. I ended up having the barrel AND slide replaced. That was on a .40 Limited class gun. An expensive lesson.

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"Double Charge" is kind of a generic term. It doesn't have to mean a true 200% of what the powder should have been...jsut more than 100%.

Sounds like that...or bullet setback.

(for safety sake..assume both.)

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Same guess here as those before. Go back and take a look at your loading procedure. I've loaded most of my ammo on a 550B, had a problem with squibs when I first started loading. The solution I found was to visually check the level of powder in each case. Haven't had a problem since I started doing this.

Also remeber that the crimp does not in and of itself prevent bullet setback, a properly sized case is the main prevention. Check the sizing die adjustment, and consider going to another brand of sizer (Dillon seem to be somewhat larger than the others, although my understanding is this applies mainly to the case head area and not mouth).

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Dog...

[broken Record Mode ON]

What has happened to you has either happened to everyone here, or at least haunts them. Don't get me wrong, the 550 is a damn good machine. I've bought two so far, but for loading in volume, the 650 and 1050 are better choices. Being careful and having good procedures will eliminate a lot of squibs and double charges, but sooner or later Fate will have it's due and you're going to miss one. And when you're loading 10, 20, or 50K rounds a year, mistakes WILL be made sooner or later. We all have to face the fact that we're human.

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm running a 550 right now too. If I keep shooting IPSC, I plan to buy a 650 or a 1050 at my earliest opportunity.

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I think that the bullet setback happened due to the high pressure inside of the gun and magazine, that is before the gas escaped through the bottom of the magazine. Both signs are classic double charge indicators.

Mike

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I had a "double-charge" once in .45 and its an experience you don't ever forget. In my case the shot fired was substantially louder and harder than the previous few, did you notice that? Then I was hit with tiny fragments of brass, my hand rung like hitting a big rock with an aluminum bat in winter, and the mag flew out the bottom with the remaining rounds compressed. The case pealed open blew out near the bottom at the extractor groove. Sound familiar? Take your exploded case and put it in a prominent place on your reloading bench as a reminder. A .45 can easily hold more than a normal charge without spilling over and you ever noticing.

Your charge also seems too hot. In my gun, using 4.5 grains of Titegroup and 230 grain bullets I had a power factor of 171. Did you run your loads over a chrono?.. and what was the power factor? How did the primers look on the other cases that did nto explode in your face? Were the primers "flattened"?

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I too would guess double charge.

I have a 1050 which auto indexes, and I have a special light set up to peer down into every case to insure there are no squibs or doubles. It is, and always will be a concern.

JB

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Measured all 300 or so remaining rounds and found (3) that were at least .030 short on COL and have no idea how. I do many random checks during but do not normally check 100%.

I experimented this AM and 2X charged a case on purpose and it fit so you could seat a 230 gr bullet using 10.4 gr by accident. Its a scary thought. It looks like 100% visual on the charge from now on.

I stripped the gun and see no visual defects other than the magazine. Any thoughts on that?

The case was blown out right near the extractor.

The powder marks on the palm of my hand matched the vent holes in the soleplate of the mag but no sting.

Used the load right out of the Sierra 5 manual and even says 5.2 gr titegroup as the accuracy round. What about that?

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Just did some thinking. My thoughts were to scrap the whole lot of 300 rounds as I do not ever want to see it again. It is pretty new Win brass and the XTP's are not the cheapest so I tried weighing each box as a separate lot. Found that all but 4 or 5 weighed within .2 grains of each other and the 4 were approx. 1 grain or so light and the 1 round was almost 1 grain heavy in the first box.

It seems to me if there are no clinkers over 1 grain heavy I should be pretty sure that I do not have any more 2X charges.

Is that reasonable thinking? I still need thoughts concerning my pistol.

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If the brass isn't gripping the bullet enough (similar to "crimp"), then the rounds can measure what they are suppose to.

THEN, when the round hits the feed ramp, the bullet can get pushed back into the case.

With three of yours coming up short...for no good reason...I would figure there was a problem with the brass not gripping the case.

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Setback. Here is why: the Dillon sizing die. I am a die-hard Dillon fan but not when it comes to their sizing die. 1st, understand that crimp does not hold the bullet in an autloader cartridge; its the tension from the re-sized dimension of the case. The Dillon resize dies seem to be the most generous ones out there and they re-size the LEAST amount of the case. They just do not grip the bullet enough. I just happened to be practicing w/ a friend this AM loading .45 on a 650 and he noticed significant setback on several loads that had been chambered & unchambered. Lucky for him, setback has not resulted in a KB probably because he loads 230s to 1.260 over a charge of VV N-320 that is BELOW the min. VV manual load (and it still makes major). A setback w/ a max load of a fast, high energy powder like Titegroup would be another story. Keep the dillon press, but replace that Dillon resize die w/ something else (like a Lee "U" die & some OneShot).

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I've used the Dillon sizing die for many thousands of rounds and never had a problem. I'm betting double charge. Also, as pointed out, the charge seems WAY heavy to start with. 5.2-gr. with a 230-gr. bullet? In my own loads, 4.7-gr. makes Major with a 200-grainer.

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Hornady might be wrong :o ...your gun did blow up.

If everybody here is saying it is too hot...might be worth a listen.

On the bullet set back. Test those round you have left over. Measure the OAL (exactly), then push the bullet against something solid (reloading bench). Really lay into it, your thumb should change colors. ;)

Then measure again. Do this with a number of rounds.

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Setback. Here is why: the Dillon sizing die. I am a die-hard Dillon fan but not when it comes to their sizing die. 1st, understand that crimp does not hold the bullet in an autloader cartridge; its the tension from the re-sized dimension of the case. The Dillon resize dies seem to be the most generous ones out there and they re-size the LEAST amount of the case. They just do not grip the bullet enough. I just happened to be practicing w/ a friend this AM loading .45 on a 650 and he noticed significant setback on several loads that had been chambered & unchambered. Lucky for him, setback has not resulted in a KB probably because he loads 230s to 1.260 over a charge of VV N-320 that is BELOW the min. VV manual load (and it still makes major). A setback w/ a max load of a fast, high energy powder like Titegroup would be another story. Keep the dillon press, but replace that Dillon resize die w/ something else (like a Lee "U" die & some OneShot).

My experience, exactly. The Dillon sizing dies of several years ago did produce a, "Coke Bottle"shape, which Dillon advertised

and promoted. Dillon sizing dies of the past few years, in 45 ACP,

do not do this. Using the sizing dies without, "Coke Bottle", shape cartridges after loading has led me to extensive feeding problems due to the cartridge OAL changing randomly

during the feeding cycle. Changed to another sizing die of different manufacture, which did size the

brass sufficiently to support the bullet at its base, "Coke Bottle", shape.

Tested ten dummy rounds by hand cycling gun, ten times each round. Setback did not exceed .010"

on any dummy round after ten feeding cycles. Gun now runs reliably.

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I just looked at load data from Hogdon.

45 ACP

CASE: WINCHESTER

BBL: 5"

PR: FEDERAL 150

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP

COL: 1.200

TITEGROUP 4.8g

818fps

16,700 CUP

That is their max load...and it makes 188 power factor.

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I'm betting a double charge (or a partial double, at least). The book may say 5.2 is an approved max, but I'm with Duane on this one, 4.6 makes Major for me in my guns. The 5.2 must be due to some difference between our setups and the tested 5.2 data.

If you're worried about setback (the setback round in the mag after the !bang! is due to gas jetting into it) then get your belling stem turned down and polished by a couple of thousandths. The coke bottle look is nice, but not required, provided the belling stem doesn't bump the I.D. back up from the sized dimension.

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Polishing and making sure the powder (belling) funnel is not expanding the case is good advice. My memory is that it seems at least snug and drags.

My gun did not blow up from too hot a round as I have shot over 2500 at this load with no problems but I agree there is no reason to load to the max and in the interest of safety I have already decided tol back it off.

I don't want to beat this to death but why does Sierra call out 5.2 gr as the accuracy round for 230 gr as that is where this all started? That and Hornady saying it was at least in their range for the 230 gr XTP. The seating die remains where it is with either 230 gr FMJ at 1.270 or 230 gr XTP at 1.230.

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I'm betting a double charge (or a partial double, at least).  The book may say 5.2 is an approved max, but I'm with Duane on this one, 4.6 makes Major for me in my guns.  The 5.2 must be due to some difference between our setups and the tested 5.2 data.  worried about setback (the setback round in the maIf you're g after the !bang! is due to gas jetting into it) then get your belling stem turned down and polished by a couple of thousandths.  The coke bottle look is nice, but not required, provided the belling stem doesn't bump the I.D. back up from the sized dimension.

The setback to which I referred is due to mechanically applied forces during the gun's feeding process. This setback

occurs without firing of a cartridge. It is also dangerous due to unpredictability. Factors which

influence setback include the sizing die's dimensions, bullet diameter, bullet hardness, jacketed, or lead, or plated, case elasticity,

crimp to a moderate degree, and probably additional factors. Bottom line is, the bullet must not be allowed to be

pushed into the case for any reason, whether cycling forces, gas pressure forces, or any other during shooting.

The sizing die is the principal method of controlling setback, because a "Coke Bottle" shape supports the

bullet at its base, thus is unaffected by those factors listed above. It is also independent of belling diameter

and powder funnel dimensions. No matter the brand of sizing die, they seem to differ in dimension of the sized brass

from die to die. I have two Hornady dies in 45 ACP. One firmly supports the bullet, the other does not.

Also, my Dillon die does not support the bullet. Both of these nonsupporting type dies have resulted in

bullets being setback during feeding. The die which did not allow setback sized the brass to produce the

"Coke Bottle" shape. As I mentioned in a previous posting, Dillon at one time (mid 1990's) promoted this very feature.

Its current dies do not appear to include this feature, and its abscense is a detriment.

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