"Seeing" definition, please.

[Jman]

Do you see your sights lift? Or, do you think you do? I base the questions on what I've been conditioned to believe. That the hand (and more certainly the gun) is faster than the eye. Could, and I'm only asking, what some of us are seeing is the beginning of say a flinch or a "micro-flinch"? It's my gut that tells me that what I see is the sight slowly settling back. My "logic" is this. If a person can see the "flip" generated buy a 180gr bullet traveling 960 FPS yet, be regularly fooled by slow slight of hand tricks, what are we really seeing? I believe our brain lets us think we see much more than we can.

Jim

[wide45]

Misdirection is one of the keys to magic tricks. Telling you that the hand is faster than the eye, is misdirection.

Sometimes I don't see the lift, and I know I don't.

Sometime I think I see it, but the location of the hit shows I did not.

Sometimes I really do see it.

Keep working on it, and as you learn how to see it better, You will see it much more often.

[JThompson]

Do you see your sights lift? Or, do you think you do? I base the questions on what I've been conditioned to believe. That the hand (and more certainly the gun) is faster than the eye. Could, and I'm only asking, what some of us are seeing is the beginning of say a flinch or a "micro-flinch"? It's my gut that tells me that what I see is the sight slowly settling back. My "logic" is this. If a person can see the "flip" generated buy a 180gr bullet traveling 960 FPS yet, be regularly fooled by slow slight of hand tricks, what are we really seeing? I believe our brain lets us think we see much more than we can.

Jim

I haven't spent much time driving an iron sight, so I can't say I've seen it lift. With my dot gun I can see it not only lift, but everywhere it goes before it comes back. I can even do that while I'm target focused. You can see a lot more than you think you can. Keep shooting and paying attention, eventually one day it wil all slow down for you and you will see it all. Then we can smile when you come back here ll excited about having seen it and telling us you cn't believe you didn't see it before.

[Flexmoney]

It is amazing how much you can see, when you give up many of the layers of trying.

Shooting rapidly into the berm...with absolutely nothing to aim at...is a good exercise. Just observe.

[rvb]

That the hand (and more certainly the gun) is faster than the eye.

These things may arguably be faster than the eye itself, but they are not faster than the MIND.

You can SEE a lot w/o your eyes having to move. How -aware- are you of how much you can actually see w/o moving your eyes?

Revelations such as that have always been followed by a leap forward in my shooting ability... Sometimes I forget these lessons which is why we practice with drills such as those Flex mentioned. It's why I'm reading Brian's book right now for about the 6th time.....

-rvb

edit:

I believe our brain lets us think we see much more than we can.

I'm pretty sure my brain gets in the way of me "seeing" all the data my eyes give it... I'm pretty sure my brain gets in the way of a lot of things, actually.

stupid brain.

-rvb

Edited August 15, 2008 by rvb

[HoMiE]

Think about sleight of hand tricks. How do they work? They commonly focus your attention elsewhere and misdirect you to what you think you saw. Where is your attention when your shooting?

You can see .45 bullets fly shooting and for the first time the other day I saw my open gun bullets traveling at 1400+ fps. So you can see things that fast if you let yourself observe what's going on.

[benos]

It is amazing how much you can see, when you give up many of the layers of trying.

Shooting rapidly into the berm...with absolutely nothing to aim at...is a good exercise. Just observe.

+1.

There's a lot more to see than we normally allow ourselves to. In all situations.

be

[AlamoShooter]

Seeing is an Art An Art that must be trained. Like a Wine taster can find details in how the wine grew and when the grapes were harvested. This 'Art' is best learned with the help of a master of that Art.

some-one that can help you pull out all the details of what you saw during some shots and help you interpret what you saw so you can see more, more often

[el pres]

Not a GM or even a baby master of calling the shot but for a long time I thought the same thing.

Those sights are just way too fast to see lifting and I knew that I was not blinking. Then I

video taped my face while shooting !!

Well, I was blinking, and real fast. Opening my eyes real big like this (wear dark glasses) , shooting the berm

, and just shooting more, got rid of the blink-flinch. I still cant see the lift most of the time in a match but I

can tell if something went really wrong in the sights, more of a feel I guess. My problem in a match is that

my attention is in other places, next target, movement, etc.. Thinking is "my" problem !!

My 2 pesos..

[HoMiE]

I stumbled across this quote on another part of Brian's site...

"You have to see it for yourself."

[Flexmoney]

Not a GM or even a baby master of calling the shot but for a long time I thought the same thing.

Those sights are just way too fast to see lifting and I knew that I was not blinking. Then I

video taped my face while shooting !!

Well, I was blinking, and real fast. Opening my eyes real big like this (wear dark glasses) , shooting the berm

, and just shooting more, got rid of the blink-flinch. I still cant see the lift most of the time in a match but I

can tell if something went really wrong in the sights, more of a feel I guess.

Good tips.

My problem in a match is that my attention is in other places, next target, movement, etc.. Thinking is "my" problem !!

Why do you suppose that is? (You get what you ask for...what are you asking for?)

[benos]

There are no problems that are not the result of thinking.

be

[shred]

eeep... hard to follow that one, but.. try shooting one shot from a mag that locks the slide back and see what you see.

[Sam]

There are no problems that are not the result of thinking.

-be

sweet!!!

[Merlin Orr]

Sometimes...Sometimes I see but mostly my "I want" gets in the way and over rides everythng else.

[benos]

Sometimes...Sometimes I see but mostly my "I want" gets in the way and over rides everythng else.

Yes.

Even wanting to see creates a problem that usually follows expectations of any sort. Because we have an idea about what we want to see, we don't see everything.

As an alternate to a typical practice routine - shoot without any visual goals at all, except - just be aware of what you actually did see. Or in other words, look with no goal other than to remember what you saw. I've learned a lot of cool stuff doing that.

be

[Singlestack]

Even wanting to see creates a problem that usually follows expectations of any sort. Because we have an idea about what we want to see, we don't see everything.

be

[Flexmoney]

Singlestack,

That guy ain't going to be able to see, without his glasses.

[Seth]

I found a funny thing at this weekends NC Sectional. I've been reading Brian's book, the be.com forum, Saul Kirsch's book, and just about everything else I could get my hands on. I haven't had a lot of range time lately and my performance at NC suffered a little.... I was looking for my hits after tracking the sights and I was too focus on LOOKING and not SEEING.

Basically, I was missing the boat. After several stages of junk, I found my eyes relaxed and paying attention to the rise and fall of the muzzle. Sights, trigger, sights, trigger... nothing consciously different, just relaxed. And I saw. Better hits, better speed. I knew I was hitting my shots, cuz I just knew. The sight was in the right place when they lifted. I couldn't quite tell you how good the hit was, but I could tell you it was in the right general vicinity --- A zone, but not upper left corner A zone...

I've been pondering how to do it again, and I think the answer is to not ponder it. Just relax and observe what the sights are doing... I think...

[Flexmoney]

[Nice post Seth. Had I known that was coming while I was typing mine up...I would have skipped mine. ]

Sometimes...Sometimes I see but mostly my "I want" gets in the way and over rides everythng else.

Yes.

Even wanting to see creates a problem that usually follows expectations of any sort. Because we have an idea about what we want to see, we don't see everything.

Hmmm...

Sometimes...it may be like a check-list. Or, perhaps a action/reaction thing, like dominoes...we disregard the happenings. All we notice is the dominoes clicking together and knocking each other down. What we miss is that each domino has to do it's thing. It's not just a click. The domino has to lose it's stability, fall then make contact with the next domino in the chain of events. Even then, it doesn't stop with just contacting the next domino, it still has falling to do...we just don't care.

Seeing is dynamic.

... Or in other words, look with no goal other than to remember what you saw. I've learned a lot of cool stuff doing that.

be

Big +1

Maybe that takes the filing, sorting and compartmentalizing out of the way ?

[edit to add]

...along with the judgement and desire?

[Singlestack]

Even wanting to see creates a problem that usually follows expectations of any sort. Because we have an idea about what we want to see, we don't see everything.

I had 1200 miles of driving this week to chew on this.

[Justin]

How much of the ability to see the weapon cycling is dependent on the gun itself?

I shoot a CZ85 in Production, and have never seen the slide cycling.

I've recently been putting more rounds through an STI Edge, and practically the first time out I not only watched the slide cycle, I could feel the entire process. This only happened if I was paying attention to the front sight, but when it happened, it was very cool.

[benos]

[Nice post Seth. Had I known that was coming while I was typing mine up...I would have skipped mine. ]

Sometimes...Sometimes I see but mostly my "I want" gets in the way and over rides everythng else.

Yes.

Even wanting to see creates a problem that usually follows expectations of any sort. Because we have an idea about what we want to see, we don't see everything.

Hmmm...

Sometimes...it may be like a check-list. Or, perhaps a action/reaction thing, like dominoes...we disregard the happenings. All we notice is the dominoes clicking together and knocking each other down. What we miss is that each domino has to do it's thing. It's not just a click. The domino has to lose it's stability, fall then make contact with the next domino in the chain of events. Even then, it doesn't stop with just contacting the next domino, it still has falling to do...we just don't care.

Seeing is dynamic.

... Or in other words, look with no goal other than to remember what you saw. I've learned a lot of cool stuff doing that.

be

Big +1

Maybe that takes the filing, sorting and compartmentalizing out of the way ?

[edit to add]

...along with the judgement and desire?

Yes.

be