Production vs. SSP vs .?

[NRAActionPistol]

It looks like the "production" class is really trying to be a "modern service pistol" class since it seems to require DA/SA or DAO semiautos. "Modern service pistol" doesn't quite fit either though, since the most popular service pistol, the Glock, is prohibited as it cannot fire the first shot double action.

Glocks are permitted they are not DA/SA, they are striker fire or as some would say DAO.

Tom...

Edited January 14, 2009 by NRAActionPistol

[Toolguy]

Tom-

Are we allowed trigger/sear stoning for autos and action job for revolver? Most production/stock classes in other disciplines

allow grip and sight changes and "trigger jobs".

[Allgoodhits]

To all:

Thanks for the replys (and the answer) I guess. I'm kinda confused from a rule making standpoint (which applies to all NRA rules) that there are rule changes within the year. It's a little confusing when you're about a week away from filling out an entry form and don't know what class to choose.

This pretty much cuts out my Les Bear and my S&W 686 (since it has the adjustable front sight). So much for getting cross over from bullseye and shilouette shooting in my case. Expecially since these are the two out of the box guns that can actually group well at 50 yards (Yes, I do shoot at 50 and longer ranges). Yea, i know there are not that many shoots at 35 and beyond, but I do want anything out of the group to be my fault.

There have been a few times that rules have been changed, then things were discovered that made additional changes necessary. I would like the NRA (and all the committees) to consider a 1-year provisional condition as a process for rule changes (excluding safety related issues). I will bring it up at the competitors meeting at Perry this year (at least for conventional).

Above all, thank you very much for the response and information!

Cecil

Cecil,

The Nostalgia Match is merely a side match, bring something to shoot it, or spend that time at the parctice range shooting through other events. Meanwhile your 686 or Les Baer will be fine for Metallic Class.

I have over the years gotten bogged down by BS stuff that I let bother me. Instead I should have spent that energy either relaxing or shooting, I would have been much better off.

Come to the Cup, bring whatever you have, shoot it and have fun with it. In the long run it is about the journey, not the destination. By doing same, one will discover the destination appears when the journey is more enjoyable.

When there, look up any of the guys from Virginia, or anywhere else for that matter. We will all help you with whatever you need. I don't recall the person, but the quote goes something like, "beware the man who has but one gun, as he likely knows how to use it".

The NRA and the shooters will find the balance in the rule issues. It isn't an easy task to draft rules and guidelines. I don't care for all the rules either, but I am just to the point that I want to have fun shooting, and hopefully be able to watch the younger guys and gals do well. My eyes and ass are getting tired!

Don't get discouraged.

MJ

[Hoytshooter]

The NRA has done nothing but make a joke of the Bianchi Cup by restricting the PRODUCTION Class to only certain guns. Both my stock guns are ineligible because one is a 1911, of which part of the purchase price is donated to the NRA, and my S&W Model 25 Mountain Gun has a single action let of of less than 3.5 pounds. I know it is less than 3.5 because the trigger on my XD45 is 4.5 pounds and the Mountain Gun is much less than one pound lighter than that.

I was thinking about doing some NRA-AP shooting if I could find a local range which does it but now I'll restrict my shooting to IDPA/USPSA competition. I was thinking of taking some vacation time and going out to watch some of the BC, it's only a little over two hours away for me, but now I'll not even do that because the NRA isn't interested in me as a shooter.

Maybe I'm wrong but if you are going to have a PRODUCTION class it should be open to all stock production guns, not just some. But then I'm only a Life member of the NRA and have been for almost 30 years so what do I know.

[gm iprod]

Hoytshooter

Production for NRA would appear to be an amalgum of IPSC / USPSA Production, where the 1911 is also not production, so they have restricted it to about 74% of the new firearms sold in the US at this time, otherwise it is called open class and that means your 'x' brand gun will be up against my $6000 STI race gun, I would call that a good amount of handicapping in my favour. The idea is to get some people who have these relatively inexpensive carry type handguns for one purpose and hopefully attract them to this game. Time will tell.

Metallic sight, as we currently shoot it, has only been around for about 4 or 5 years. It used to be called stock gun, and 5/8ths of Sweet F All of them were "stock". Arguments abounded in 2003, and in the end it all got messy. So they came up with metallic and stock became an orphan. It has now been modified into Production. Even Metallic has been fine tuned over the last three years after some careful rule reading by someone who won't be named.

Metallic sight is pretty much where the, somewhat modified I will have to admit, 1911 will be found. With a couple of die hards using decent long barreled revolvers (Jerry M especially).

My own 686 that was used as part of the last team to compete in "stock" at a worlds would just miss out on the 3.5lb rule as it stands becuase it shoots single action still and barely creeps past 3lb. I am sure if it had a trigger stop installed and was double action only it would cruise into the rules as proposed. But will it be allowed, that is yet to be clarified.

The NRA are actually heading in the right direction (yes I said it out loud). They are still just starting out on this course, Tom especially, and some more fine tuning will be required and it will take a couple of years and a few cockups to get this right. There will be mistakes and we have to accept that.

You are right the NRA has treated Action Pistol a little poorly over the years. But they have put and are putting a lot of time and money into a match that, whilst you and I love it, has been hard pressed to increase the competitor numbers much until the last two or three years, coverage of the match by media has fallen away alarmingly, again until more recently as some more prominent writers attended the match last year and I believe a few more higher profile people will be in this coming May. We have struggled here in New Zealand to hold the numbers at our natcional to 1/2 what it used to be, and we allow you to shoot whatever the hell you wanted and we would place you in a division where ever we though best. Just get the hell in there and shoot is all we ask.

But we appear to be heading the right direction. Guys like Martin, Kevin and a bunch of others whose names escape me have busted their arses to get more people there.

Will you be there? I will be and I travel 8000 miles to do this and will be bringing 3 guns for me and one or two for my daughter to shoot. Why, because I can and want to, and am willing to put in the effort.

Richard

PS

Tom, no word on the <2lb rule for the Nostalgia match?

[Griz]

g) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. in any mode.

So most off-the-shelf S&W revolvers are out.

Griz,

Is your out of the box S&W revo trigger less then 3.5 lbs? I shot a 6 in 586, and it would pass that requirement no problem. That trigger weight requirement was recommended by a revo shooter that shoots NRA Action.

Tom...

All of mine came in at or just under 3lbs when new-in-box. (a 629,627 and 625). Maybe it's a N-frame thing but I suspect that a survey of new revolvers on a gun dealer's shelves would be hard pressed to find one that is 3.5lbs or heavier.

I would suggest that if under the spirit of the rules, Glocks can be exempted from the DA on first shot rule that is clearly aimed at DA/SA semi-autos, revolvers should be exempted from the "3.5lbs in any mode" nonsense that is also, in the spirit of the rules, aimed at DA/SA semiautos. No serious competitor is going to be firing his revolver single action.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Griz

[kimmbeckwith]

Griz, I might beg to differ with you on single action. In production class I think you will see quite a few people shooting single action at 50 yards. The less chance you have with a jerk there the better.

I know that in distinguished match at the NPSC triggers are weighed, but I don't think it is 3.5 lbs. I could be wrong, I haven't been in quite a few years. This is a NRA national match, so maybe the same trigger weight could apply.

Kim

[Allgoodhits]

We have been down this rocky road before and likely will again. We have got to stop bitching from the sidelines. To those of you who have continued to support the CUP, I'll see you at the Cup and yes, I'll be at the Competitors Meeting bitching too. Those of us who shoot it, reserve a bit more bitching rights.

To those whoever they may be, who most likley wouldn't shoot the match if YOU were permitted to shoot whatever you wanted, in whatever caliber or PF you also chose. Some just like to bitch and make excuses for why they don't want to play. Keep watching football games with all the answers that the Coach doesn't have. Shooting Sports are involvement sports, not spectator sports.

So, sign up, pay the entry fee, shoot the match and then we'll all bitch together while we are shooting the match and having the time of your life. I guarrantee it. Many of us, me included, have swore we would never go back because of whatever whining reason. I have learned to eat crow in a number of ways....it ain't that bad!

NRA AP isn't for everyone, and the BIanchi Cup has stubbled along for 30 years, so I guess it still has some life in that old messed up dog, that people travel the world to get there! The best shooters in the world have tried it. Most keep coming back for some reason. How about it? Sign up or shut up.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[NRAActionPistol]

Tom-

Are we allowed trigger/sear stoning for autos and action job for revolver? Most production/stock classes in other disciplines

allow grip and sight changes and "trigger jobs".

You can work on the Trigger as long as it passes the weight limit, grips can be modified, follow this guideline.

a) Replacement or modifications of grips to fit competitors hand or to facilitate loading. Checkering, stippling and grip tape & grip sleeves are allowed.

Tom...

[Griz]

We have got to stop bitching from the sidelines.

I don't think I'd call criticizing vague rules as "bitching", but if it is, so be it. I just want the rules clear so that there is no confusion. If there is no confusion, people will be less hesitant to take the plunge and join the fun. I am not going to shoot Production, but I have friends who I might be able to drag out to the range and hopefully get them hooked on our sport, using the "Production" class to calm their timid hearts and get them to dip a toe into the water with no investment or pressure. Right now it seems like a mysterious secret cult to them with hidden rules, a secret handshake and $4000 guns. We need to bring NRA AP out into the light of day!

As the rules read now, Glocks need a specific exemption from the DA on the first shot rule and it should *not* be another unspoken rule. I don't want Glocks prohibited, I want the rules fixed if the intent is to allow them. A Glock is *not* DAO, just try to dry fire one twice in a row without recocking the "striker" by racking the slide.

In the same spirit, if the intent is to allow production revolvers, I think someone should do a little due diligence and make sure that the rules will work as intended. Maybe my N-frames came from the factory with abnormally light triggers, I don't know, I just know that if I had been a newbie and showed up with my 629-8 and a box of 44spl, not only would everyone point and laugh but I'd have been sent home if they weighed triggers. Would I have returned to try again after being turned away my first time out?

I know that running a committee is not easy, certainly not as easy as pointing out mistakes semi-anonymously on an internet forum, but I'm just trying to help.

[caspian1]

We have been down this rocky road before and likely will again. We have got to stop bitching from the sidelines. To those of you who have continued to support the CUP, I'll see you at the Cup and yes, I'll be at the Competitors Meeting bitching too. Those of us who shoot it, reserve a bit more bitching rights.

To those whoever they may be, who most likley wouldn't shoot the match if YOU were permitted to shoot whatever you wanted, in whatever caliber or PF you also chose. Some just like to bitch and make excuses for why they don't want to play. Keep watching football games with all the answers that the Coach doesn't have. Shooting Sports are involvement sports, not spectator sports.

So, sign up, pay the entry fee, shoot the match and then we'll all bitch together while we are shooting the match and having the time of your life. I guarrantee it. Many of us, me included, have swore we would never go back because of whatever whining reason. I have learned to eat crow in a number of ways....it ain't that bad!

NRA AP isn't for everyone, and the BIanchi Cup has stubbled along for 30 years, so I guess it still has some life in that old messed up dog, that people travel the world to get there! The best shooters in the world have tried it. Most keep coming back for some reason. How about it? Sign up or shut up.

I agree with you whole heartedly. The reason for production is to get more shooters to the cup. I don't believe the new class is going to mean a whole lot as far as bringing in new shooters to the game. The ones shooting the new class are going to be the old class with a different gun. To get more competitors in action shooting, more people are going to have to put on matches at a local level. At our local matches, we don't care if they show up with a BB gun we let them shoot as long as they do it safely. Usually one of us range officers are always behind, beside of or on the sidelines talking and working with the new shooter in a very friendly atmosphere. The right atmosphere has a whole lot to do with whether a shooter likes the new game or not when they first come to give it a try. If they don't have a gun and are just watching, we try to talk to them and get them to try a stage. Many times I have let a guy or gal try to shoot a round of plates with one of my guns and me beside of them coaching. One of the best things to happen is bringing in a rimfire class. There are as many shooters shooting rimfire as centerfire at our local club. The ammo is cheap and the guns are not expensive. Even an open class rimfire can be built on most peoples budget. I have had three people over the winter call me and ask for advice on a gun purchase, so they can give action pistol a try without putting out a lot of money. My advice is a rimfire to start with and then go from there if they like the sport. If they like it they will move to centerfire in short order.

I think action pistol is the game of games and nothing else matches it. I have been involved in it for about twenty years now and even though I can no longer compete for health reasons, I am at all our local matches helping to score and do what I can. I even whooped up on Action Pistolero once or twice when he first started out. Our club was the first place he ever tried it. Since then we have become very good friends and he is the discipline chairman of our club. We didn't have a lot of equipment at our range back years ago, no mover and only two plate racks but we had a good time and that is what it is all about.

I have never been to the national championship but I don't think anyone has ever worked harder to promote the sport than I have at a local level. The local level is where it all starts and people should remember that. I have never met a better bunch of people than the ones who shoot action pistol. I also consider several of the people that contribute to this forum good friends that I have got to know at our matches. A friendly place to play means a lot to a first time shooter. The first match I ever shot I was so nervous it was rediculous. Action was the first match I ever shot and I was hooked. The people running that match made the difference. Friendliness will get a person every time.

[Toolguy]

Caspian1 -

Thanks for an excellent and meaningful post!

Welcome to the forums too!

[GlockerJeff]

I am personally very excited about the new production class. It will make it possible for guys like me to participate. I have watched the coverage on TV and have thought that I would enjoy a competition like that but could not afford a custom gun. WE have an annual AP shoot at our club in Michigan. One of our members is planning on going to shoot the production class and I may go next year if it is still offered. I have also shot with ActionPistolero and with Ken from New York. Those are two great guys who were willing to take the time to help me with advise. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Some of the big name shooters who were interviewed on the Shooting USA show left me with the impression that they thought the cup match should not be open for amateurs, Doug K was more receptive.

[Allgoodhits]

We have been down this rocky road before and likely will again. We have got to stop bitching from the sidelines. To those of you who have continued to support the CUP, I'll see you at the Cup and yes, I'll be at the Competitors Meeting bitching too. Those of us who shoot it, reserve a bit more bitching rights.

To those whoever they may be, who most likley wouldn't shoot the match if YOU were permitted to shoot whatever you wanted, in whatever caliber or PF you also chose. Some just like to bitch and make excuses for why they don't want to play. Keep watching football games with all the answers that the Coach doesn't have. Shooting Sports are involvement sports, not spectator sports.

So, sign up, pay the entry fee, shoot the match and then we'll all bitch together while we are shooting the match and having the time of your life. I guarrantee it. Many of us, me included, have swore we would never go back because of whatever whining reason. I have learned to eat crow in a number of ways....it ain't that bad!

NRA AP isn't for everyone, and the BIanchi Cup has stubbled along for 30 years, so I guess it still has some life in that old messed up dog, that people travel the world to get there! The best shooters in the world have tried it. Most keep coming back for some reason. How about it? Sign up or shut up.

I agree with you whole heartedly.The reason for production is to get more shooters to the cup. I don't believe the new class is going to mean a whole lot as far as bringing in new shooters to the game. The ones shooting the new class are going to be the old class with a different gun. To get more competitors in action shooting, more people are going to have to put on matches at a local level. At our local matches, we don't care if they show up with a BB gun we let them shoot as long as they do it safely. Usually one of us range officers are always behind, beside of or on the sidelines talking and working with the new shooter in a very friendly atmosphere. The right atmosphere has a whole lot to do with whether a shooter likes the new game or not when they first come to give it a try. If they don't have a gun and are just watching, we try to talk to them and get them to try a stage. Many times I have let a guy or gal try to shoot a round of plates with one of my guns and me beside of them coaching. One of the best things to happen is bringing in a rimfire class. There are as many shooters shooting rimfire as centerfire at our local club. The ammo is cheap and the guns are not expensive. Even an open class rimfire can be built on most peoples budget. I have had three people over the winter call me and ask for advice on a gun purchase, so they can give action pistol a try without putting out a lot of money. My advice is a rimfire to start with and then go from there if they like the sport. If they like it they will move to centerfire in short order.

I think action pistol is the game of games and nothing else matches it. I have been involved in it for about twenty years now and even though I can no longer compete for health reasons, I am at all our local matches helping to score and do what I can. I even whooped up on Action Pistolero once or twice when he first started out. Our club was the first place he ever tried it. Since then we have become very good friends and he is the discipline chairman of our club. We didn't have a lot of equipment at our range back years ago, no mover and only two plate racks but we had a good time and that is what it is all about.

I have never been to the national championship but I don't think anyone has ever worked harder to promote the sport than I have at a local level. The local level is where it all starts and people should remember that. I have never met a better bunch of people than the ones who shoot action pistol. I also consider several of the people that contribute to this forum good friends that I have got to know at our matches. A friendly place to play means a lot to a first time shooter. The first match I ever shot I was so nervous it was rediculous. Action was the first match I ever shot and I was hooked. The people running that match made the difference. Friendliness will get a person every time.

I also agree with both responders. I also know that Caspian1 does much for the shooting sports in general and has for years. We all know that the NRA has

made some decisions that were set backs. I think they just made ill informed decisions that made it look like they were trying to kill BC. It certainly looked like it.

Over the years there have always been competitors meetings on thursday night at BC, They were often poorly attended. Many griped that NRA was going to do whatever they wanted anyway. I believe change is made by persistent logical feedback to the authorities. Over time we have gained back some of the lost ground from a few years ago. This progress was not achieved at the competitor meetings. It was achieved by small groups of individuals WRITING LETTERS AND EMAILS to the NRA. It is DEEDS not spoken words which get things done. I know there have only been a very few persons whom have ever taken the time to draft a wriiten resonse to the NRA.

I do think it is getting better. The more shooters the more better. There is power in numbers. I propose we sign up, shoot and then render feedback. I believe this is much more effective than sitting on the sidelines, and coming up with all the reasons one doesn't want to shoot BC or AP. The Production Rules are not to my liking either. Why can't a 1911 be a Production gun? An old COLT series 70 or even Series 80 certainly has no competitive advantage over a Glock 34 or 686 revolver "out of the factory box". Somehow Production has nothing to do with "as produced" or stock. Perhaps IDPA has the best approach by breaking things down as they do. Maybe that will come, but not for BC 2009. Stay tuned.

So again, let's sign up shoot the match, then render feedback and come back for BC2010 and BC2011, and BC2012. Twenty 12 will be the last one, since Nostradamos says the works will end in December 2012. Better get signed up, now!

Out,

MJ

[Action Pistolero]

Griz,

The barrel length rule of 5.35" for autos was written specifically for the Glock! They are not trying to prohibit them. They have written a rule for them. A double action only firearm is one where the trigger pull on the first shot and the 2nd shot are the same. The Glock is included in this even though we all know it's striker fired. This includes the M&P, XD and all the other tupperware guns.

Kevin

[NRAActionPistol]

All,

Good Evening,

I have finished my last day at the "Shot Show", the primary reason of the NEW "Production" rules is and will always be to get more shooters in NRA Action Pistol, not the NRA Bianchi Cup, it is a Championship. Many of you have spent many years practicing and preparing for NRA Action Pistol, and the Cup and have also stepped up to Open or Metallic, it is the hope that we grow the sport, to make it better for all!

There are few shooters that can step in with a Metallic or Open firearm, where do we grow the sport from?

Are the new "Production" rules perfect? Maybe not, are they a good start, we think so! These rules were made over 2 years of asking questions and getting feedback from a lot of you.

Go to a Regional, shoot an Approved or Registered Match, support the sport, support shooting, if you want to give your constructive opinion send it to me thughes@nrahq.org This is not a one person gig, I can not and will not do this by my self!

These decisions are not made by me or any other person, they are made by several people, who have also discussed this with several other shooters.

We realize this, is a sport, and it's about accuracy, but it is for the many not the one or group. The rules are NOT made for one group of manufacturer, they have a wide brush to cover as many "Production" firearms as possible.

Tom...

Edited January 17, 2009 by NRAActionPistol

[NRAActionPistol]

Griz,

The barrel length rule of 5.35" for autos was written specifically for the Glock! They are not trying to prohibit them. They have written a rule for them. A double action only firearm is one where the trigger pull on the first shot and the 2nd shot are the same. The Glock is included in this even though we all know it's striker fired. This includes the M&P, XD and all the other tupperware guns.

Kevin

This is closer to another manufacturer NOT Glock, will they compete, maybe not, can they play, absolutely.

[NRAActionPistol]

I am personally very excited about the new production class. It will make it possible for guys like me to participate. I have watched the coverage on TV and have thought that I would enjoy a competition like that but could not afford a custom gun. WE have an annual AP shoot at our club in Michigan. One of our members is planning on going to shoot the production class and I may go next year if it is still offered. I have also shot with ActionPistolero and with Ken from New York. Those are two great guys who were willing to take the time to help me with advise. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Some of the big name shooters who were interviewed on the Shooting USA show left me with the impression that they thought the cup match should not be open for amateurs, Doug K was more receptive.

Jeff,

Thanks, this Division was made for you, and shooters like you! We are looking forward to seeing you in May and some other Action Pistol Matches in 2009.

Tom...

[NRAActionPistol]

I don't think I'd call criticizing vague rules as "bitching", but if it is, so be it. I just want the rules clear so that there is no confusion. If there is no confusion, people will be less hesitant to take the plunge and join the fun. I am not going to shoot Production, but I have friends who I might be able to drag out to the range and hopefully get them hooked on our sport, using the "Production" class to calm their timid hearts and get them to dip a toe into the water with no investment or pressure. Right now it seems like a mysterious secret cult to them with hidden rules, a secret handshake and $4000 guns. We need to bring NRA AP out into the light of day!

As the rules read now, Glocks need a specific exemption from the DA on the first shot rule and it should *not* be another unspoken rule. I don't want Glocks prohibited, I want the rules fixed if the intent is to allow them. A Glock is *not* DAO, just try to dry fire one twice in a row without recocking the "striker" by racking the slide.

In the same spirit, if the intent is to allow production revolvers, I think someone should do a little due diligence and make sure that the rules will work as intended. Maybe my N-frames came from the factory with abnormally light triggers, I don't know, I just know that if I had been a newbie and showed up with my 629-8 and a box of 44spl, not only would everyone point and laugh but I'd have been sent home if they weighed triggers. Would I have returned to try again after being turned away my first time out?

I know that running a committee is not easy, certainly not as easy as pointing out mistakes semi-anonymously on an internet forum, but I'm just trying to help.

Griz,

Criticizing is good and I personally except it always. The rules are not vague, but are more probably more open to flexibility, we have never written NRA Action Pistol "Production" rules before I believe these are new, and the whole idea is new, but the motivation is clear, and will always be clear.

I have read your input, and you have good points, I am going to run the revolver trigger requirement by the Committee and the Referees for interpretation and we will respond as soon as possible.

Tom...

[NRAActionPistol]

NRA AP isn't for everyone, and the BIanchi Cup has stubbled along for 30 years, so I guess it still has some life in that old messed up dog, that people travel the world to get there! The best shooters in the world have tried it. Most keep coming back for some reason. How about it? Sign up or shut up.

So again, let's sign up shoot the match, then render feedback and come back for BC2010 and BC2011, and BC2012. Twenty 12 will be the last one, since Nostradamos says the works will end in December 2012. Better get signed up, now!

Out,

MJ

Martin,

You and shooters like you, have done more for this sport then I will ever do, thank you! A certain tall A/P shooter stepped up and helped me greatly down here in the last few days, and again, it's NOT a one person gig. We still have a lot of work to do, many potential sponsors and previous sponsors have the same attitude as some of the people on here, and believe WE are not committed to this sport, they need to see value for their commitment, we do not have their trust, and our numbers are the proof.

WE are growing, and hopefully we will continue to grow, if 5 shooters bring half the amount you brought in 2008, I will have another problem, a waiting list!

Tom...

[Allgoodhits]

Tom et al:

We all need to apply some of Lanny Bashams advice to our approach to "other shooting sports". By this I mean, have an open positive attitude about at least trying the game. I get annoyed at people who bash anything, they have never tried, and to top it off they attempt to deliver their position from an illusion of authority. Talk to anyone who has shot Bianchi Cup, your opinion after the first one has changed since you shot it....period. Heck, you may even hate it more, but then you have experience and an opinion based on your own actual experience. ( I hate the eights, not the game. I hate the 5's even more! )

NRA AP once again may not be for everyone, but at least either try it, and if you haven't tried it, don't try to deter others who also haven't tried it with your inexperienced opinion on this particular topic, i.e. NRA AP.

The rule thing is always a hot topic of discussion. If we like the existing rules we want them left alone, if we don't like them we want them changed to our liking. That is part of human nature as humans have the ability to reason. This will be the second year in a row that I have either built or acquired a gun specifically for the next years Cup, to later find out that that gun no longer fits the mold due to some rule change. Hell no I don't like that. But worse case, I have two extra guns that I wouldn't have had. BTW, I'll have the third one for 2009. Rule changes are good for gun collections and the economy! We wouldn't need to even change rules, if gun manufactures would stop developing new and better products. Rules, laws, opinions and the like must be dynamic or there is no progress.

I am more convinced than ever that BC and AP is getting better. Tom, you have opened up, and offered feedback and dialogue to the shooters on this forum and in other venues. I also think Brian Zins is trying to build some excitement in the sport. And then there are all the Match Directors on the local level who continually shoot, run the matches, field all the inquiries and keep doing it month after month, year after year. Those guys and gals are the people keeping this thing going and growing. No one has done more to promote NRA AP than Kevin Angstadt. Also add, Alan Strawn from Virginia as well as the guys and gals from Missouri, Kansas, Louisaiana, Mississippi, Texas, NJ, New York, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and now I think North Carolina and Maryland and probably others.

Lastly if people would just hold on to their strong negative opinions until they have some foundation of knowledge or experience of the topic we would be so much better off. Isn't this the argument that nearly 100% of gun enthusiasts use on the anti-gun crowd? Just Try it, before you render such a strong opposition on something you know so little about. Don't most anti-gun people enjoy shooting, if and when you can get a gun in their hands? Maybe, just maybe the anti-NRA AP person may feel the same too.

Most of the best shooters in the World will be there. The nicest shooters in the World will be there. The most helpful shooters in the world will be there. For the politically correct people we have have diversity too. Why wouldn't someone want to be with such a crowd? Sign up, make the trip, shoot the match......you'll be glad you did and you will be welcomed!

MJ

[Action Pistolero]

Picked up my new 686+ on Sat. Weighed the trigger right out of the box in single action. It would almost pick up a 4.5lb trigger weight! The action is currently being slicked up a bit. It looks to me like they got the rules were they need to be for Production.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Action Pistolero

[Toolguy]

You might want to re-weigh that trigger after it is slicked up a bit. I have many S&W revos, some stock and some not. Not one of

them will go 3.5 pounds single action. They will all do 2.5 though. It seems to me it would be a lot easier to just go 2 pounds for

everyone. It would certainly be a lot easier on the officials trying to keep everything straight. Although I never shoot single action

at anything, I can make sure my single action sear will go 3.5. Most other people can not.

[Allgoodhits]

You might want to re-weigh that trigger after it is slicked up a bit. I have many S&W revos, some stock and some not. Not one of

them will go 3.5 pounds single action. They will all do 2.5 though. It seems to me it would be a lot easier to just go 2 pounds for

everyone. It would certainly be a lot easier on the officials trying to keep everything straight. Although I never shoot single action

at anything, I can make sure my single action sear will go 3.5. Most other people can not.

Toolguy you are right on this one. NRA's own rules in Conventional pistol have .22 and CF guns at 2.5 lbs, .45 guns at 3.5 lbs but their Distinguished or service guns at 4 lbs. All of these even the Distinguished service guns can have barrel change provided it maintains orginal contour. I got a feeling that 2010 rules may get changed yet again. The 3.5 just made no sense, but hey it is what we have to work with, so it is what it is.

MJ

[Greg in VA]

Of all my revolvers only one will meet the weight.....it is my distinguished PPC revolver and my gunsmith had to make it heavier so it would pass at the Nationals.

Greg