czechmate Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Recently Minesota passed "Shall-issue" gun legislation so law abiding citizen's can protect themselves. Certain churches in Minnesota have decided that we shouldn't have a piece while we are praying. Hell, I can't think of a more American thing to do . Pray with a gun. What are the chances that a gun in the hands of a (true) God fearing Christian is going to be used for "evil?" These wolves in sheep's clothing need to be exposed for what they are - a bunch of socialist, pacifist cry-babies who weaken our society by watering down the truth and chasing off a generation of kids who know that God didn't intend for us to be doormats for evil in the world. Man they piss me off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 In 1995 when Texas passed the CHL, places of worship were included in the list of places CHL holders were not allowed to carry. This included churches, temples, synagogues, and even the home of the Right Rev. Deuteronomy Devine, brought to you from Del Rio, Tx, 50,000 KW of resurection power; put your hand on the radio and be healed. But in 1997, the good people of Tx determined that churches should not prohibit folks from carrying unless the churches hae the proper signage posted, just like any other business. That sign is one foot high X two feet long with letters one inch tall. To my knowledge there are none posted anywhere in town. Carrying in church anywhere is a personal decision. however I will relate a story to you from a banking loan officer with whom I had a conversation in 1995. When I asked her if the bank was going to post signs prohibiting CHL holders from entering the bank, she just smiled and said why would they do that. If the people were doing it correctly (concealed), no one in the bank would know if they were packin'. Same is true for church, if you are doing it right, no one should know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I always carry when I'm in Church (two guns, in fact!). If anyone who found out about it had something to say, I'd point them to the Papal Encyclical from the late 80s wherein Pope JP II stated quite clearly that not only do you have a right to defend yourself, but it is your duty to do so since your body is one of God's creations. Even the Dalai Lama has stated that it is appropriate to defend yourself (I believe the actual quote refers to shooting first) when confronted with deadly force (sorry I don't have a cite for the quote... but you should be able to find it on the web). I think it's only polite to keep it very well concealed, though. Anything you do which might serve as a distraction during Mass or other worship service is inappropriate and rude to the other parishoners. It doesn't matter whether it's a gun that shows or chewing and snapping gum or letting your kids run wild. What I find troubling is when an entire church (or at least their heirarchy) officially proclaims that they are anti-gun rights, as has the Methodist Church in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Texas has had at least two shooting sprees in a church that I can remember in the last couple of years. A Catholic priest got shot and killed by a guy washed out of the deacon program here a few months ago. Church is a dangerous place to be especialy when walking through the parking lot after a service( getting run over by a guy whose hand you just shook) The Pope might be pro self defense but the Catholics don't lack for anti-gun lay groups. A priest at my church enjoys shooting. A priest in Toledo is part of the anti-gun coalition there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 You would think that any group such as the Presbyterian Church USA, who openly came out and said they were against guns of all kinds, not just in church, but everywhere, would know what the signage law requires at least in Tx, where they have made a big stink about guns. But NO, they don't, so I still carry. Just makes me sick. The spokesperson for the Pres. Church USA has never served a single day in the service of this country in the armed forces, but publically proclaims that guns are not necessary. Maybe she has forgotten that one reason the USA was formed was to protect her freedom of worship, and that war was not fought with a bible taped on the end of a tree limb. So they applaud religious freedom now that they have it, but renounce the methods our Founders used getting her that freedom. Pretty lame... What happened to being a loving, compassionate, forgiving, tolerant person, like the Church tries to teach us? Well, I just find it easier to be loving, compassionate, forgiving and tolerant if I am carrying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 The Pope might be pro self defense but the Catholics don't lack for anti-gun lay groups. A priest at my church enjoys shooting. A priest in Toledo is part of the anti-gun coalition there. Oh, sure . . . the American College of Bishops is very much anti RKBA too. But the Roman Catholic Church itself is not. I kniow that Mas Ayoob has had at least one RC priest as a student (methinks from somewhere in Pennsylvania) who packs a Glock 23 all the time. If I ever become a priest, I'll be going old school . . . 1911A1 gov't model in .45ACP! Heck, with the robes I could conceal a Barret Light .50BMG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Why on earth would you or any one else ever become a priest, till the Catholic Church amends it's thoughts on married priests. If God made anything better than women, he kept it for himself. A warm gun is nice, but a warm woman is nicer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 It's two years since I did my Texas CCW renewal but I was under the impression that places of worship were back on the list of places where it is illegal to carry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Phil I am an instructor for the CHL and have been since it started. The DPS is supposed to keep us informed of any changes in the law concerning the CHL, and I have heard nothing about not being able to carry in a place of worship. I am going to the recertification class in August, but haven't received anything that says you can't carry there. As efficient as the DPS is, there is a chance that it changed and we were not notified, but I have received nothing. As I stated earlier, if they have the proper signage, it is illegal, but if the correct sign isn't posted, you should be good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I will check my latest issue of the guide this evening and post again later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Phil I have checked the latest booklet from DPS printed Oct 2001, and on page 91 of the Q&A section, it says that you cannot take your gun into a place of worship IF they have the correct sign posted. It states the contrary in another place. I will call the DPS and post later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Add Quakers to the list of anti-gun churches; back in 1980 I was given a choice of 2 fine private schools to attend, one quaker and one non-denominational (but the second school had a dress code requiring boys to wear a tie - blech!). Turns out the non-denominational school had a rifle team - that made my choice easy since the quackers told us they were pacifists and opposed the existance of arms of any type. I learned to live w/ the tie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 (tightloop-)"she just smiled and said... If the people were doing it correctly (concealed), no one in the bank would know if they were packin'." I had the very same conversation with my banking exec last year and she--ultimately--said the same thing in conclusion. There WAS a bit of back 'n forth flap about it by way of one of our NRA reps, me and the Sheriff's Office here because the county thinks the bank doesn't have the legal right to deny us 'carry' inside the bank any more than anywhere else it's legally allowed. The bank had their damn' "company policy" though and they were a-stickin' to it. A bank is NOT a Federal building, a school, or any of the traditionally prohibited spots around town where it'd be some kind of a no-no. But again, she ended up conceding that if the gun were THAT concealed, she wouldn't know about it anyway.I wonder if there's some subtle parallel between churches and banks, however..... Still and all, my fave quote goes like this: "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." --His Holiness, the Dalai Lama of Tibet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Why on earth would you or any one else ever become a priest, till the Catholic Church amends it's thoughts on married priests. If God made anything better than women, he kept it for himself. A warm gun is nice, but a warm woman is nicer... Dude . . . DUDE! That's why I said, "If I ever," when I made the comment. Being allowed to be married is one of my prerequisites for seriously considering the priesthood. Unless and until that option arises, it's all academic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Here's the Pope-talk to which I referred earlier. The full title of the document appears below, followed by the appropriate excerpts. Pope John Paul II on Self-Defense Excerpted from: ENCYCLICAL LETTER EVANGELIUM VITAE ADDRESSED BY THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS PRIESTS AND DEACONS MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS LAY FAITHFUL AND ALL PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL ON THE VALUE AND INVIOLABILITY OF HUMAN LIFE (25 March, 1995) 55. This should not cause surprise: to kill a human being, in whom the image of God is present, is a particularly serious sin. Only God is the master of life! Yet from the beginning, faced with the many and often tragic cases which occur in the life of individuals and society, Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God’s commandment prohibits and prescribes.43 There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God’s Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defence, in which the right to protect one’s own life and the duty not to harm someone else’s life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defence. The demanding commandment of love of neighbour, set forth in the Old Testament and confirmed by Jesus, itself presupposes love of oneself as the basis of comparison: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself “ (Mk 12:31). Consequently, no one can renounce the right to self-defence out of lack of love for life or for self. This can only be done in virtue of a heroic love which deepens and transfigures the love of self into a radical self-offering, according to the spirit of the Gospel Beatitudes (cf. Mt 5:38-40). The sublime example of this self-offering is the Lord Jesus himself. Moreover, “legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State”.44 Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmark Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Add Quakers to the list of anti-gun churches; back in 1980 I was given a choice of 2 fine private schools to attend, one quaker and one non-denominational (but the second school had a dress code requiring boys to wear a tie - blech!). Turns out the non-denominational school had a rifle team - that made my choice easy since the quackers told us they were pacifists and opposed the existance of arms of any type. I learned to live w/ the tie. Carlos, I can only report what I know about the Evangelical Friends, (Quakers, Quackers, whatever!) but the stand that our church takes is anti-murder, not anti-gun. And especially we frown on killing in the meeting house! Some of the eastern branches of the church have different ideas, but we all shy away from killing. I don't see the need to carry in church, but if you do, fine. Just respect my right to worship, and don a silencer, please!!! I think we all agree that the goal of concealed carry is to protect life. Also for the record, Quakers do not wear funny hats and shoes, and we are allowed to use electricity and deoderant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Here in Indiana, most of the local Mennonites are extreme pacificst and won't own guns. Some of the Amish, on the other hand, see things a bit differently. My FLG told me a story of a day a few years ago when several Amish men came to his shop and they bought a LOT of guns, and no wimpy stuff either. It was mostly AR-type rifles, 12ga shotguns, and 1911s in .45ACP. I thought that was kind of cool. They put all of it on one bill and one guy had a huge wad of cash from which he peeled all large bills to pay for the group purchase. I'm not sure how they handled the paperwork . . . I would assume they are exempt from most of it, but an FFL dealer is not from his end. I'll have to ask the next time I see him. It kind of adds a new angle to that old "Amish Drive-by shooting" joke (what goes clop-clop-clop-BANG! clop-clop-clop-BANG!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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