Arms fully extended or slightly bent?

[Z32MadMan]

When you are shooting do you keep your arms fully extended or slightly bent outwards? For instance, if you fully extend your arms so that the pistol is as far away from your chest as possible, and if from there you move the pistol an inch closer to yourself your arms/elbows are now slightly bent. I was fully extending my armsn but after several days filled with dryfiring my right elbow is becoming sore... So tonight I tried not quite fully extending my arms, and I noticed that my arms and sholder felt much more relaxed and I had not tention up top. Now I haven't had a chance to live fire with this, but I dont notice any difference in dryfiring between the two in terms of transitions so I'm thinking slightly bent is the way to go. So whats the verdict?

Cheers

MadMan

[Matt Griffin]

When you are shooting do you keep your arms fully extended or slightly bent outwards? For instance, if you fully extend your arms so that the pistol is as far away from your chest as possible, and if from there you move the pistol an inch closer to yourself your arms/elbows are now slightly bent. I was fully extending my armsn but after several days filled with dryfiring my right elbow is becoming sore... So tonight I tried not quite fully extending my arms, and I noticed that my arms and sholder felt much more relaxed and I had not tention up top. Now I haven't had a chance to live fire with this, but I dont notice any difference in dryfiring between the two in terms of transitions so I'm thinking slightly bent is the way to go. So whats the verdict?

Cheers

MadMan

There's no benefit in locking out that I could imagine, and as you've seen, it leads to health issues.

Slightly bent is where it is at. I think the physiological reasoning would go something like this:

Muscles can only contract, not expand, at least with any force. Expansion is just equal to relaxation. (there will be some folks who haven't seen this before, trust me on it. You don't have a muscle in your body that can "push", they can only pull.)

So, you have muscles on either side of every hinged joint, which lets you move the joint and attached bone around in all directions. (also diagonal muscles for twisting)

The best possible place for stability is to load one muscle and let the other relax. Two muscles working simultaneously will fight each other. This is why the cammed-forward grip is ideal, because you get to dump as much strength as you want into one muscle, and 94% looks much the same as 99%, since there aren't other muscles trying to move.

The upshot is that locking your arms usually requires both exterior triceps and the lateral muscles that pull the elbow beyond the normal position, which gives you two groups fighting each other. It's better to use one group exclusively. Thus the primary concern of accuracy, stability, doesn't seem to be served by joint locking.

And then there's recoil transfer down the bone-lock to your mass, rather than letting muscle flexion soak it up.

Or just look at the picture at the top of the page. He's doing it right, as best I can tell.

H.

[Z32MadMan]

When you are shooting do you keep your arms fully extended or slightly bent outwards? For instance, if you fully extend your arms so that the pistol is as far away from your chest as possible, and if from there you move the pistol an inch closer to yourself your arms/elbows are now slightly bent. I was fully extending my armsn but after several days filled with dryfiring my right elbow is becoming sore... So tonight I tried not quite fully extending my arms, and I noticed that my arms and sholder felt much more relaxed and I had not tention up top. Now I haven't had a chance to live fire with this, but I dont notice any difference in dryfiring between the two in terms of transitions so I'm thinking slightly bent is the way to go. So whats the verdict?

Cheers

MadMan

There's no benefit in locking out that I could imagine, and as you've seen, it leads to health issues.

Slightly bent is where it is at. I think the physiological reasoning would go something like this:

Muscles can only contract, not expand, at least with any force. Expansion is just equal to relaxation. (there will be some folks who haven't seen this before, trust me on it. You don't have a muscle in your body that can "push", they can only pull.)

So, you have muscles on either side of every hinged joint, which lets you move the joint and attached bone around in all directions. (also diagonal muscles for twisting)

The best possible place for stability is to load one muscle and let the other relax. Two muscles working simultaneously will fight each other. This is why the cammed-forward grip is ideal, because you get to dump as much strength as you want into one muscle, and 94% looks much the same as 99%, since there aren't other muscles trying to move.

The upshot is that locking your arms usually requires both exterior triceps and the lateral muscles that pull the elbow beyond the normal position, which gives you two groups fighting each other. It's better to use one group exclusively. Thus the primary concern of accuracy, stability, doesn't seem to be served by joint locking.

And then there's recoil transfer down the bone-lock to your mass, rather than letting muscle flexion soak it up.

Or just look at the picture at the top of the page. He's doing it right, as best I can tell.

H.

Thanks Houngan

It makes sense especially with the cammed grip, which I just figured out a few days ago.... I think I am going to try to stick with the bent, I feel much more relaxed. And especially now that my elbow isn't a happy camper. It is tendinosis just like I had last year from rock climbing. Not good stuff. Now I just need to put in some good dryfiring so that I can pound it into the subconscious before the match on Sunday.

[JThompson]

This is one of those areas each shooter has to work out on their own.

[lugnut]

This is one of those areas each shooter has to work out on their own.

I'm not expert in this area but I agree 100%. I keep my arms straight out but not "locked". It feels weird otherwise.

[AikiDale]

Try this with a training partner. Put your hands out in a shooting grip, without the gun, with relaxed elbows and have your partner smack your hands, directing the blow directly back toward your shoulders. Be aware of your body's reaction. Repeat with elbows locked out. Be aware of your body's reaction. The idea is to simulate the effects of recoil. After trying this, most will opt for relaxed elbows.

[jam-man]

I original starting shooting with locked arms. At the time locking my arms seemed to help with more consist hits. I finally developed something similar to tennis elbow. I am still battling that injury to this day! However, the injury helped me dropped that bad habit like a hot potato.

Now I have just enough flex in my arms were my elbows are not locked. Good luck finding what ever works for you. I wish someone would have conviced me concerning locking your elbows years ago, when I was hard headed.

BTW my elbows use to face down toward the ground, now they face more to the outside of my body. Maybe some of the better shooters on this thread can comment on elbow postions that may help you find what works for you.

[AikiDale]

Try this. Hold your pistol with arms extended and elbows down. Move your head left and right as if looking for a target. Note the relation between your pistol and head movement. Repeat with elbows rotated up. Most folks will see that elbows up tends to 'connect'

the pistol to the head and elbows down will 'connect' the pistol to the torso. YMMV.

ETA: I'm not one of the better shooters.

Edited August 1, 2008 by AikiDale

[lugnut]

You know... instead of listening to people that you may not know... or may not be too good- take a look on the web for videos of the best shooters out there. There are tons of videos with Sevigny, Leatham, Jarret, etc. See what they do and give it a try. I can guarantee you they aren't doing it wrong!

[Flexmoney]

You know... instead of listening to people that you may not know... or may not be too good- take a look on the web for videos of the best shooters out there. There are tons of videos with Sevigny, Leatham, Jarret, etc. See what they do and give it a try. I can guarantee you they aren't doing it wrong!

How do we know your guarantee is worth anything? We don't know you and you may not be any good.

(Watching videos of the top shooters is good advice, I just found some humor in the presentation. Don't mind me. )

[AikiDale]

Not to pile on lugnut, but that is exactly what they used to say about Jeff Cooper and Jack Weaver. Then those darn kids, like Brian and Robby tried different stuff.

Johnny Weismueller won 5 gold medals swimming in 2 Olympic games. Teenage girls, with better technique, have been swimming faster for the last 36 years.

The guys winning today may not be doing it wrong (they are winning after all) but it can and will be done better. That improvement will come through observation, hypothosis and experimentation.

[lugnut]

No problem. You bring up a good point. But a Brian or Robby wouldn't ask us- they'd figure it out on their own. I guess my point was to check out what the great shooters of today do and give that a go. When you "get" as good as they are then find a better way if it exists.

Not to pile on lugnut, but that is exactly what they used to say about Jeff Cooper and Jack Weaver. Then those darn kids, like Brian and Robby tried different stuff.

[benos]

One way to get in the ballpark for your natural extension (you don't even need a pistol in your hands) - Put your hands together to simulate your grip, but don't grip too hard, just hold your hands loosely together. Now with no tension in your arms, bend 90º forward from the waist and let your arms hang down naturally. That "extension" is usually a pretty good place to shoot from.

Ron Avery showed me that trick initially. When I compared my results with the extension I was shooting from, it was right on. Then I experimented on lots of folks with it, and it was always real close if not spot on.

be