Ed Robinson Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I'm shooting a Para 38 super and having a hard to diagnose feeding problem. I thought to start with it was my mags but after a thorough exam it seems it may be brass related. The problem only occurs with more than 8 or 10 rounds in the mag. It seems like the small rim of the top round is getting behind the rim of the 2nd round and diving nose down when the slide tries to strip it out. All my brass is conventional Starline Super +P. I'm thinking supercomp or TJ brass may take care of the problem. Anyone else have or had a similair problem? Thanks,Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 If the gun otherwise runs fine, this would imply that you probably need to swap your mag springs. At least, as a starting point.... If you switch to a rimless brass, you're going to need to also have a new extractor put in the gun. I run Supercomp, personally, but with a Super extractor, my gun runs fine with the same mags. Supercomp definitely feeds a tad easier and gives you a little bit of a margin for error - but its not huge, in the end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 Mag springs are new ISMI with Arredondo followers. Last night tried a suggestion of using new springs with original Para followers to no avail. That didn't work either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Mag springs are new ISMI with Arredondo followers. Did these feeding failures start after you started using those new springs and followers? Did the gun/mags ever run fine before? What changed to cause it to stop working? If the gun never worked, changing brass isn't going to fix any problems for you. Otherwise, something has changed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 I had the problem occasionally and thought it was springs and/or followers so I replaced them and still have the problem. Weird thing is I have a big stick of unknown make (guy I bought the gun from already had it) that works perfectly! All four of my short mags (para factory) jam like this on occasion but only when loaded with more than 10 or so rounds loaded. Weird problem I just thought the semi rim may be causing (or adding to) the problem. What does it take to make a S_I mag work in the para, if it will work at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ38super Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 While I have never had a Para, you have a problem that can be seen by other models as well. Sounds like a mag and spring issue and it takes that many rounds to push the spring down to the point of issue. What is the capacity of the Para mags? do you have extended pads or anything on them? I would check inside for something for the spring to catch on and tube sizing to allow the rounds to stack out of place. This is what I would look at on my open gun at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Sorry to say, but sell the para and buy an STI. I use to have so much problems with para that I just gave up. bought an STI with an aftec extractor, NEVER LOOKED BACK!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 The gun shoots too darn good when it's running to get rid of! I'm tempted to try a MecGar just to see if it does any difference. If not I'm only out 18 bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NogNog Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 If you are using 38 SC, you want to make sure you are using an extractor designed to 38 SC the same thing goes for 38 Super brass-you should use an extractor designed for 38 Super or else you will have extraction problem on top of the feeding problem. Stick to the original brass that you were using. There could be a few source of the problem, but right now it sounds like it might be your magazine lips not properly angled or the opening is wide or tight. Having the mag tuned would not hurt. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) Never had nay kind of extraction or ejection problem, only this nose down feeding prob. Who can do the mag tuning? I understand H Smith is several months backlogged. Anyone else offer tuning? Smith does Dawsons I think. Edited July 24, 2008 by Ed Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I have had the same issues with two STI mag that I bought for my SVI 38 super. I purchased the gun used and the mags that came with it (SVI) have run with out any problem, only the ones I purchased and have not had tuned malfunction. The Feed Lips on the SVI mag are much closer togeather. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 I had the problem occasionally and thought it was springs and/or followers so I replaced them and still have the problem. Weird thing is I have a big stick of unknown make (guy I bought the gun from already had it) that works perfectly! All four of my short mags (para factory) jam like this on occasion but only when loaded with more than 10 or so rounds loaded. Weird problem I just thought the semi rim may be causing (or adding to) the problem. What does it take to make a S_I mag work in the para, if it will work at all? I have some MecGar mags with ISMI springs, Dawson base pads and Para followers and they give me no grief. I can't get the Arradando followers to work at all in those mags. I have his teflon followers in my Sti for Para mags and they work very well. To use a standard STI magazine, Rich at Canyon Creek altered a Para mag catch so it would work with standard STI magazines. All it took was a phone call and IIRC about $45. Had the mag catch in my hand with a bill about a week later. I like the way the man does his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Ed, definitely mag related problems. They likely need some tuning of some sort. I'm not certain who really does Para mag tuning, at this point - but you can search on here and get some ideas on how to do it yourself, too... Realize that the big stick is the mag that will tend to show issues like weak mag springs most quickly (heavier column of ammo in it) - if your big stick runs fine w/ .38 Super.... then look at the other sticks as the source of your issues You may be able to find some "STI for Para" tubes out there, as well - they're STI tubes with the mag catch hole cut for the Para mag catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff686 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Well, I suggest you use your big stick as a template for fixing the problem. Measure the feed lips, and compare. Load 'em up and look at the bullet height and angle, and compare. Maybe even swap the follower and see if the problem moves. All that not withstanding, it seems to me that supercomp was invented for a reason. If it makes tuning your mags easier and more reliable, why not... My old junky Norinco 1911 didn't like SWC. People used to tell me that a good gunsmith can fix it. My fix.... use round nose bullets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 If your 170 mm mag works measure the inside dimension and compare it to your 140mm mags. You just may need to shorten the OAL on your ammo. It could be to long for the tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 i guess it's time for another opinion. the problem could be brass related. yes, the little rim on the 38 Super brass can exacerbate nosedive feeding issues from double column (and possible even single column) magazines. i've had that same experience with my para. changing to rimless supercomp brass solves the problem as there is less drag because of the rim. there's nothing wrong with Paras or their magazines. sorry S_I users, S_Is are not inherently better designed in my experience. check all the links on this website (and others) complaining of feeding problems with S_Is and the necessity of tuned mags. i've got many factory para mags of different generations and they are fine. Para's newer 9mm magazines have an improved feature that reduces nosedive problems. I vote for rimless cases for double stack guns since they are inherently more reliable in double stack magazines. the semi-rimmed brass issue can be a real headache with brand new cases. after they've been fired, tumbled and reloaded the problem diminishes because the sharp edges get rounded off. a new extractor may not be necessary at all. several of my 38s function perfectly with either brass. extractor tuning might be necessary. replacement is a last resort unless you want separate extractors - that's fine too. granted there are many causes to feeding issues and the responders have pointed to some. magazine springs can be an issue, and frankly its a bit hard to diagnose feeding problems over the internet. we've all had different experiences. why something works for one shooter and not another is what keeps this forum alive and well. the brass might be the problem. the spring might be the problem. etc, etc. good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 I have about 7 or 8 supercomp brass (accidentally picked someones else's up at the range) that 've kept seperate from my standard super brass. I'm gonna load them this weekend, put 5 or 6 regulars in the mags and top it off with the supercomp loads and see if they act better. Since the problem doesn't show itself til the mag has more than 8 or 10 rounds in it, maybe this will help me figure out whether it's brass or mags. I have a buddy with some MecGar mags that I'm, also gonna try. It is frustrating because all other hicaps I've owned (HI Powers, Smiths, and Paras) were rimless and I've never experienced any kind of feeding problems with them. That is what pointed me to the semi rim possibly being the root of the problem. Thanks everyone for your help and advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ38super Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 My 38 Super STI open gun will run anything I feed it, super, supercomp, TJ whatever. I have tested it with mags loaded with just a specific brass and mixed and it makes no difference how my gun runs and how the mags feed. I know many people say it makes things better going from Super to Supercomp but I could not show proof to that. My guess is you have a spring and follower issue and not a type of brass issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 I started with an OAL of 1.195, bullets seated to the crimp groove, so I don't think length is an issue. After playing with it some more tonite, I think it is a combination of brass and mags. I loaded the 8 SC brass I mentioned earlier to the smae OAL as my earlier loads. Functioned like a charm. Going back to the original load with super brass, I noticed after getting like 3 or 4 rounds in the mag, the 3rd round(usually) woudl jump forward and the nose of the bullet was rubbing the front inside wall of the mag, keeping the follower from pushing up on the noses. I can take my knife blade and stick it in the tube and with just a little pressure push that round backwards against the back wall of the tube and BINGO, all of the rounds lay nose up just like they're supposed to! After comparing my short mags (Para) to my big stick (unknown brand but not a Para but works perfectly) I' notice that the big stick keeps the top 2 or 3 rounds in more of a straight line before it widens and starts to stagger the rounds. The shorter mags widen much closer to the top and begin staggering rounds as soon as they get below the feed lips. I am so tired of chasing a tidbit problem. Nothing I've determined is definitive but I think I'll just order new mags AND some supercomp brass and hope I never look back at this problem again. Thanks to everyone who offered help and suggestions. I'll post the final results as soon as I get the mags and brass in. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmca Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Sounds to me like you don't need to change both....either your brass or your mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 I am not sure but I think the mags are no good. You don't have a brass problem in my opinion, using Super Comp may work a little better but the underlying problem will still be there. I have an old (big frame) Para in 38Super and it has the old Blue Steel magazines, 18 and 20shot. I was given 4 new Nickel Plated 38Super mags and two of them give me the shits. I no longer use any of them. I suspect you should buy, borrow, steal or otherwise acquire a STI magazine for Para-Ordnance. I have a couple of STI big sticks for my gun and they go great. They do hold one round less in standard size. I use 38Super cases with an aftec extractor, it will run Super Comp or TJ, I just sort them out to be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Para's current production 9mm mag is an improved version of their 38 super mags. the new 9mm mags accomplish what you described with your big stick, they form a single column lower in the mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 So should I go for New Factory Para mags at $49 bucks each, STI mags modded for the Para at $60 each, MecGars at $20 each, or possibly new Para mag bodies at $40 using the new springs and followers I already have? By the way, what exactly has to be modded on an STI mag to function in the Para? I understand it's the catch but do you modify the notch in the mag or the catch in the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 i would suggest trying one of the complete para mags and not buying a bunch of anything. remember, get their new 9mm mag as its body is modified to specifically form a single column lower in the mag. and yes, the 9mm mag will hold 38 Super cartridges. i haven't seen the MecGars so i don't know their configuration. i'm not clear on what has to be modified on the STI brands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Robinson Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 I found this at CDNN- Para mag Would this be an older production for 38S? Superdude, you're saying don't order a 38S specific but a 9mm specific? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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