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Old Time IPSC shooters


tightloop

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Cal is always at the Steel Challenge. He seems to have given up the demo in the past couple years which was a ton of fun (best line ever: "Now I'm going to do something you never see in the movies... reload my six-gun.." ;) , but he was over on the Cowboy Fast Draw side match all the time.

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I remember a guy who used to shoot down around Macon Georgia in the mid 80's. His name I believe was Lester Rhodes and he was a big time "Cooper" disciple. He would usually shoot a LW Commander loaded with Hardball out of a Summer Special Holster. He would regularly humble good shooters with comp guns and speed holsters at the matches down there. It was always impressive to watch him shoot.

I also remember the first time I saw Todd Jarrett shoot at the Area 6 around 88-89. Man he was (still is) fast....... :surprise:

That's Lester Rhoden.

He doesn't shoot IPSC/USPSA anymore but still shows up at IDPA matches from time to time. Still calls Col. Cooper "Uncle Jeff". He's been using a Milt Sparks Executive Companion for several years now, worn decidely behind the hip, and makes people stare when he gets into the classic Weaver stance. They go from staring to wide-eyed when he's done shooting. And yes, I've seen him shame some pretty good Open shooters, too. Having a guy draw .45 from his back out, of an IWB, shooting 210 PF ammo and him beating your Buck Rogers blaster must hurt.

:P

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Here's a story that some of you old timers might find entertaining:

After the first few Bianchi Cups, the NRA developed an interest in starting some type of "practical" shooting program (the term "action" shooting hadn't been developed yet). In late '82 or early '83 they formed a "Practical Shooting Committee" to organize this endeavor. The board included Jeff Cooper, Ray Chapman, John Bianchi (although he always sent Richard Nichols as his rep), Bill Jordan and a few less notables like myself. For those of you who never met Bill Jordan (of No Second Place Winner fame) he was the Cooper antithesis: tall, skinny, talked with a lisp and was hilariously funny in a red-neck/trailer trash sort of way. Of course Jeff was the epitome of intellect and decorum and seemingly void of humor below a mensa level. Both Jeff and Bill were WWII Marine veterans and had terrible hearing (actually Jordan was as deaf as a post). Those meetings were frustratingly hilarious to participate in. Jordan wanted to make sure that this new sport didn't become an NRA-sanctified IPSC program and Cooper wanted it to be truly "practical." Jordan would say in his Elmer Fudd lisp, "We have to make suwe that this new spowt is faiw fow wevolers, it can't be dominated by fowty-five shootews." At that point Cooper would lean forward and say, "What did he say?" Then he'd say, "This is 'practical' shooting, we need to set up a scenario and let the shooter solve it with whatever tool is best suited to the task." At that point Jordan would lean forward and say, "What did he say?" The younger guys like myself spent most of our time repeating the conversation in a slower, higher decible level for the two of them. We were quite lucky that no blood was drawn during those early meetings. The first couple of Bianchi Cups had been shot on modified "Option" targets with a 6"x6" head. When the "tombstone" target was proposed I thought that Jeff was going to have a stroke--it totally emasculated the entire concept and led to the disolution of the "Practical Shooting" committee and evolution of the "Action Shooting" committee which Jeff wanted nothing to do with (nor did I). Anyway, other than Richard Nichols, I think that everyone else in those meetings is now dead, so there's a story that most of you have never heard.

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Here's a story that some of you old timers might find entertaining:

After the first few Bianchi Cups, the NRA developed an interest in starting some type of "practical" shooting program (the term "action" shooting hadn't been developed yet). In late '82 or early '83 they formed a "Practical Shooting Committee" to organize this endeavor. The board included Jeff Cooper, Ray Chapman, John Bianchi (although he always sent Richard Nichols as his rep), Bill Jordan and a few less notables like myself. For those of you who never met Bill Jordan (of No Second Place Winner fame) he was the Cooper antithesis: tall, skinny, talked with a lisp and was hilariously funny in a red-neck/trailer trash sort of way. Of course Jeff was the epitome of intellect and decorum and seemingly void of humor below a mensa level. Both Jeff and Bill were WWII Marine veterans and had terrible hearing (actually Jordan was as deaf as a post). Those meetings were frustratingly hilarious to participate in. Jordan wanted to make sure that this new sport didn't become an NRA-sanctified IPSC program and Cooper wanted it to be truly "practical." Jordan would say in his Elmer Fudd lisp, "We have to make suwe that this new spowt is faiw fow wevolers, it can't be dominated by fowty-five shootews." At that point Cooper would lean forward and say, "What did he say?" Then he'd say, "This is 'practical' shooting, we need to set up a scenario and let the shooter solve it with whatever tool is best suited to the task." At that point Jordan would lean forward and say, "What did he say?" The younger guys like myself spent most of our time repeating the conversation in a slower, higher decible level for the two of them. We were quite lucky that no blood was drawn during those early meetings. The first couple of Bianchi Cups had been shot on modified "Option" targets with a 6"x6" head. When the "tombstone" target was proposed I thought that Jeff was going to have a stroke--it totally emasculated the entire concept and led to the disolution of the "Practical Shooting" committee and evolution of the "Action Shooting" committee which Jeff wanted nothing to do with (nor did I). Anyway, other than Richard Nichols, I think that everyone else in those meetings is now dead, so there's a story that most of you have never heard.

Now that's funny, don't care who you are....Great stuff..

Back in the mid 90's I was at Gunsite when Janelle had a birthday cake for Jeff...who by the time the party got started he was pretty well in his cups....as was befitting Jeff, he cut the cake with a WWII Samauri sword, nearly cutting the table in half...also funny...or maybe I could tell the story about Jeff turning a MAC 10 loose in the class room...not very funny,but he was completely nonplused...typical Cooper.

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Well, I started this thread and after thinking about it for the better part of two weeks, I guess I am ready to name names..I have been shooting for a long time, and have seen most of the great guys shoot, Cooper, Chapman, Fowler, Seyfried, Plaxco, Shaw...most of them really good, but not all of them especially fast from the leather to the first shot...Ross especially was not the fastest out of the leather.

Guess the fastest guy I ever saw crank it had to be Chip McCormick...I know he does not rank up there with the guys who can crank it now, but then, he was the original blurr....saw him do a 50 yd El Prez in 6.20 down 5 as an example and this was about 83 or so....as I have said before one of the local hot rocks was John Dixon in Texas, and I shot maybe 35 or 40 matches with both he and Chip in them...I NEVER saw him beat Chip man on man, and John was just about as tough as they came. In the early yrs, both BE and TGO were fast, but just ask Brian if Chippie was fast or not...almost a toss up going with Chip or Nick Pruitt, but I did not get to shoot with Nick but a couple of times.

The guy was lightning fast in the early 80's. So that is my pick..never won the US or the World, but came close a couple times and did win the SC a time or two...

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think Chip was one of the original gamers..always seemed to be tuning and tweaking equipment and technique.

I remember taking a class from John Shaw back in the 80s. That was fun..one night we got to hang out at the house and go through the safe and fondle and play with his guns. remember a couple of shooters making offers on some of his new stuff..one a Clark pinmaster in the new 38super :D

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think Chip was one of the original gamers..always seemed to be tuning and tweaking equipment and technique.

I remember taking a class from John Shaw back in the 80s. That was fun..one night we got to hang out at the house and go through the safe and fondle and play with his guns. remember a couple of shooters making offers on some of his new stuff..one a Clark pinmaster in the new 38super :D

It was a Clark Pinmaster, it must have been 80 or 81...they made an impact, but did not last long in the lime light, cause that was at the peak of the IPSC gun wars...the original pin guns evolved into comps in about 180 days or so when they got to Houston...one of the pistols I loved was a local version of the Clark Pin gun with some holes thru the slide and bbl behind the weight done by an EDM shop in Prescott Az...talk about soft shooting wow..

John Shaw was of the Chip generation also...also much the gamer...

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maybe not a pinmaster then..it was tube style comp..had a slanted baffle on the exit side..not really a chamber..as much as an opening..

this would have been around 84, 85.

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well, a few of these folks actually made some equipment...check this out.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...78&hl=comps

those were some of the first attempts at a comp, but the Pin Master was simply a 1" weight screwed to the bbl..no holes or ports...just a weight...made a huge difference...over a stock 5" gun.

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Guess the fastest guy I ever saw crank it had to be Chip McCormick...I know he does not rank up there with the guys who can crank it now, but then, he was the original blurr....saw him do a 50 yd El Prez in 6.20 down 5 as an example and this was about 83 or so....as I have said before one of the local hot rocks was John Dixon in Texas, and I shot maybe 35 or 40 matches with both he and Chip in them...I NEVER saw him beat Chip man on man, and John was just about as tough as they came. In the early yrs, both BE and TGO were fast, but just ask Brian if Chippie was fast or not...almost a toss up going with Chip or Nick Pruitt, but I did not get to shoot with Nick but a couple of times.

The guy was lightning fast in the early 80's. So that is my pick..never won the US or the World, but came close a couple times and did win the SC a time or two...

This may be the page you're looking for: http://www.brianenos.com/pages/phbc.misc.html

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Guess the fastest guy I ever saw crank it had to be Chip McCormick...I know he does not rank up there with the guys who can crank it now, but then, he was the original blurr....saw him do a 50 yd El Prez in 6.20 down 5 as an example and this was about 83 or so....as I have said before one of the local hot rocks was John Dixon in Texas, and I shot maybe 35 or 40 matches with both he and Chip in them...I NEVER saw him beat Chip man on man, and John was just about as tough as they came. In the early yrs, both BE and TGO were fast, but just ask Brian if Chippie was fast or not...almost a toss up going with Chip or Nick Pruitt, but I did not get to shoot with Nick but a couple of times.

The guy was lightning fast in the early 80's. So that is my pick..never won the US or the World, but came close a couple times and did win the SC a time or two...

This may be the page you're looking for: http://www.brianenos.com/pages/phbc.misc.html

Thanks Shred, but had enough first hand experience with Chip to know just how fast he really was...looking back on that picture does take me back though...verifies what I said about BE knowing about his speed also.

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Guess the fastest guy I ever saw crank it had to be Chip McCormick...I know he does not rank up there with the guys who can crank it now, but then, he was the original blurr....saw him do a 50 yd El Prez in 6.20 down 5 as an example and this was about 83 or so....as I have said before one of the local hot rocks was John Dixon in Texas, and I shot maybe 35 or 40 matches with both he and Chip in them...I NEVER saw him beat Chip man on man, and John was just about as tough as they came. In the early yrs, both BE and TGO were fast, but just ask Brian if Chippie was fast or not...almost a toss up going with Chip or Nick Pruitt, but I did not get to shoot with Nick but a couple of times.

The guy was lightning fast in the early 80's. So that is my pick..never won the US or the World, but came close a couple times and did win the SC a time or two...

This may be the page you're looking for: http://www.brianenos.com/pages/phbc.misc.html

Interesting to note in the picture; Chip wore his holster strong side centerline with the muzzle neutral (no cant). I asked him once why he did this and he

just grinned and said his grandpa was once a Texas sheriff and that's the way he wore his.

Notice that Brian has the holster forward of centerline with forward muzzle cant and Robbie's holster is so far forward that you can't see it in the picture.

I never watched Shaw at a match but I seem to remember that he looked at his gun while drawing. This seems to be the case in the pic.

This was a time that all the "big guys" except Chip were experimenting with holster cant and position.

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Guess the fastest guy I ever saw crank it had to be Chip McCormick...I know he does not rank up there with the guys who can crank it now, but then, he was the original blurr....saw him do a 50 yd El Prez in 6.20 down 5 as an example and this was about 83 or so....as I have said before one of the local hot rocks was John Dixon in Texas, and I shot maybe 35 or 40 matches with both he and Chip in them...I NEVER saw him beat Chip man on man, and John was just about as tough as they came. In the early yrs, both BE and TGO were fast, but just ask Brian if Chippie was fast or not...almost a toss up going with Chip or Nick Pruitt, but I did not get to shoot with Nick but a couple of times.

The guy was lightning fast in the early 80's. So that is my pick..never won the US or the World, but came close a couple times and did win the SC a time or two...

This may be the page you're looking for: http://www.brianenos.com/pages/phbc.misc.html

Interesting to note in the picture; Chip wore his holster strong side centerline with the muzzle neutral (no cant). I asked him once why he did this and he

just grinned and said his grandpa was once a Texas sheriff and that's the way he wore his.

Notice that Brian has the holster forward of centerline with forward muzzle cant and Robbie's holster is so far forward that you can't see it in the picture.

I never watched Shaw at a match but I seem to remember that he looked at his gun while drawing. This seems to be the case in the pic.

This was a time that all the "big guys" except Chip were experimenting with holster cant and position.

You are correct...after the 81 Natls, I started wearing my holster in the kidney position and looking at the pistol B4 the buzzer..How easily we were led back then...

Edited by tightloop
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It was a Clark Pinmaster, it must have been 80 or 81...they made an impact, but did not last long in the lime light, cause that was at the peak of the IPSC gun wars...the original pin guns evolved into comps in about 180 days or so when they got to Houston...one of the pistols I loved was a local version of the Clark Pin gun with some holes thru the slide and bbl behind the weight done by an EDM shop in Prescott Az...talk about soft shooting wow..

John Shaw was of the Chip generation also...also much the gamer...

More macro-history:

According to John, he had the first "pin-gun" that Jim Clark, Sr. made and Lew Sharp (the sales rep for Colt) had the second one. I was fortunate enough to buy the one from Lew. He had the weighted barrel MagNaPorted and it worked quite well. The original one (and mine) were actually milled out of Douglas barrel blanks and welded to a chamber from a surplus Govt. barrel. Eventually the weld broke on mine. I showed it to Jim (Sr.) at the second or third Bianchi Cup--his comment was "where the heck did you get this?" He had realized the potential problem with the welds and had started threading cone-shaped weights onto long barrels. As you mentioned, by that time the "expansion chamber" concept had caught on. Some of the first Wilson comps were strictly weights however. I sent the gun to a new and upcoming pistolsmith at the time (Eddie Brown) and he put the second specimen of his compensator on it. So the #2 Clark pin-gun became the #2 Brown Maxi-Comp. (Wish I still had that piece--traded it for a Pigeon Grade Winchester 101 skeet gun). Sorry to bore you with insignificant history-just stuff I haven't thought/talked about for a LLLOOONNNGGG time.

Edited by Early IPSC'er
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It was a Clark Pinmaster, it must have been 80 or 81...they made an impact, but did not last long in the lime light, cause that was at the peak of the IPSC gun wars...the original pin guns evolved into comps in about 180 days or so when they got to Houston...one of the pistols I loved was a local version of the Clark Pin gun with some holes thru the slide and bbl behind the weight done by an EDM shop in Prescott Az...talk about soft shooting wow..

John Shaw was of the Chip generation also...also much the gamer...

More macro-history:

According to John, he had the first "pin-gun" that Jim Clark, Sr. made and Lew Sharp (the sales rep for Colt) had the second one. I was fortunate enough to buy the one from Lew. He had the weighted barrel MagNaPorted and it worked quite well. The original one (and mine) were actually milled out of Douglas barrel blanks and welded to a chamber from a surplus Govt. barrel. Eventually the weld broke on mine. I showed it to Jim (Sr.) at the second or third Bianchi Cup--his comment was "where the heck did you get this?" He had realized the potential problem with the welds and had started threading cone-shaped weights onto long barrels. As you mentioned, by that time the "expansion chamber" concept had caught on. Some of the first Wilson comps were strictly weights however. I sent the gun to a new and upcoming pistolsmith at the time (Eddie Brown) and he put the second specimen of his compensator on it. So the #2 Clark pin-gun became the #2 Brown Maxi-Comp. (Wish I still had that piece--traded it for a Pigeon Grade Winchester 101 skeet gun). Sorry to bore you with insignificant history-just stuff I haven't thought/talked about for a LLLOOONNNGGG time.

Yep, they evolved from 5' box gun to 6' usually BarSto bbl with vents in the top of the bbl, to the pin gun, to the pin gun with the edm holes thru the slide and bbl,to one hole comps mostly half profile, them to full profile them two hole full profile comps like the LE comp by Wilson then it started with the 38 Super and then the Para frames...Changes were sometimes weekly but most lasted a couple of months IIRC...

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Amazing how much stuff changed back then, and how quickly it went from good - to better - to even better! :rolleyes:

And how little changes now days. Back then there were some really good Indians, but it really was who had the better arrows. Now it seems to be back to the Indian.

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Amazing how much stuff changed back then, and how quickly it went from good - to better - to even better! :rolleyes:

And how little changes now days. Back then there were some really good Indians, but it really was who had the better arrows. Now it seems to be back to the Indian.

And it wasn't just the pistols that changed, look at the holsters...I first used a Chapman Hi Ride by Safariland, then used the same holster crossdraw (legal then)then went to a Gordon Davis 1045 which was much better because it was steel lined, then after a few months of shooting it, took it apart and cut the front down about 2.5 inches and sewed it back up. Course when I cut it down I had to take the steel out and that made it too weak...suffered with it for a while and then got a California Challenger for my new 6" gun...Used it in some variations till about 86 when I stopped shooting.

We also figured out how to get another round into the 7 round Colt mags and used them till Charlie Kelsey started Devel and making a real 8 round mag...Also used to have about .5" of brass soldered on the bottom of the mag to speed ejection when you did a reload.

Went from stock front sights to partridge sights to ramp sights to insert ramps to tapered fronts then fronts out on the comp, then back to the slide...seemed like it never stopped

Chris, have to respectfully disagree for the most part....the changes to equipment made a huge difference as you know, but guys like McCormick, Dixon, Larry Raymond, they could beat you with a box 5" gun most of the time. The changes and improvements closed the gaps and made it a much tighter race,but the better shooters usually came out on top anyway.

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Chris, have to respectfully disagree for the most part....the changes to equipment made a huge difference as you know, but guys like McCormick, Dixon, Larry Raymond, they could beat you with a box 5" gun most of the time. The changes and improvements closed the gaps and made it a much tighter race,but the better shooters usually came out on top anyway.

Which goes to show that all you really need is a gun that ALWAYS WORKS, and lots of practice.

But the day Jerry showed up at the Nationals with a Red-Dot had to blow everybodys mind. :surprise: Even the good shooters.

Edited by CHRIS KEEN
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Chris, have to respectfully disagree for the most part....the changes to equipment made a huge difference as you know, but guys like McCormick, Dixon, Larry Raymond, they could beat you with a box 5" gun most of the time. The changes and improvements closed the gaps and made it a much tighter race,but the better shooters usually came out on top anyway.

Which goes to show that all you really need is a gun that ALWAYS WORKS, and lots of practice.

But the day Jerry showed up at the Nationals with a Red-Dot had to blow everybodys mind. :surprise: Even the good shooters.

Yes, it did; just like the first time I saw anyone shoot a hicap 38Super against my single stack .45...both those things were almost life altering for shooters at that time...However I still remember beating Dixon on a course of fire called the Speedy V which ran from 25 yds out to 60yds...beat him by .02 of a comstock point and was thrilled beyond belief, he was shooting a dot and I had irons...that must have been sometime late '85 or so.

And you are right about practice, at the time, my shooting buds and I were shooting between 50 and 70K rounds a yr in practice. Lots of time at the casting pot...

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I would have to say Ray Neal and Nick Pruitt. Both shot at our home club here in the Coachella Valley. Back then it was Desert Sportsman, now it is Palm Springs Gun Club.

Both were fast, but Ray was a friend of the family and gave me some of my first tips. Don't know how y'all shot so well with that Weaver push-pull technique but you did. :bow:

Being the son of a friendly Father and capable shooter I met the likes of Tim LaFrance and Armand Swenson. LaFrance was just a master gunsmith. I don't know what he is doing now but he did great work.

I thought Tim was going to shoot my dad once when the old man was teasing him with a large snake found on the range at Rainbow. The look on Tims face I will never forget!

TL, on the note of equipment, I would have thought that the cross-draw would have taken over :rolleyes: I do remember a time when that was the ticket with the faster shooters. I even remember seeing people shooting Jackass rigs in competition. ROs just made you start at a 45 degree angle to the LOF.

I started with an IWB Gordon Davis, with mags in my pockets. Amazing how things evolve. :)

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