Have Unified Rules for all 3 Gun Matches?

[Benelli Chick]

Well here goes! I have the answer. The answer is - there is no answer!

First, we are outlaw matches! You want all the outlaw matches to have the same rules…Does anyone see the oxymoron in that statement? Darrell Humphrey calls trying to put everyone in one box – academentia! What works for one, does not work for everyone!

2nd, dream on. The NRA (with impetus from Aaron) tried to create a council to make a unified set of rules. They asked me to participate and I said yes. I couldn’t make the first meeting, still in school, Johnson 3-Gun etc. They were willing to pay airfare and rooms and they still couldn’t get it done, just logistically. If someone like the NRA doesn’t do it, who’s putting up the money???

USPSA is our example of consistent rules. At our local matches (believe it or not) we use USPSA scoring. (Range limitations) Because of some politics here, we checked out to see what it would take to be affiliated with USPSA. $$$$$ Per shooter, to join up, AND you have to shoot 6 classifiers a year, which are all pistol, and with only 4 berms, just wouldn’t work. But, my point is, a unifying organization is going to charge money. Now, maybe JJ and I spend too much on targets or prizes or RO’s, but we’re not making any money now at Rocky Mountain or Johnson. We’re just breaking even! We don’t have any more money to pay out. You, as shooters, will see match fees go up!!

And I say once again, whose rules? Look here on Enos. We can’t agree on ANYTHING! Everyone has an opinion, and MOST of them have very good points. Pro and con and all shades of grey in between.

But the thing that scares me most about unification is the stifling of creativity on stage design AND matches. Going to USPSA Nationals, you’ve got very similar stages every year. The rules tell you what kind of targets you can use. That nasty triangle steel on the plate rack at Johnson would have been a no go. (Okay, that might be a good thing! ) The little 1/4 area paper targets, aren’t really legal yet. It wasn’t until last year’s Nationals that you could reengage a steel target. That seems a must for long range stage like Rocky Mountain has. The match that has shoot targets with a stencil of a weapon and no-shoots with hands…no go! Couldn’t be done!

Let’s talk about creativity in matches. No unified equipment rules are going to say your friend can run up and give you a gun when yours pukes! What about being able to stab targets if you have a knife! Not okay! Multi gun stages over 40 rounds…not okay! Good-bye MGM!

Though I have never been able to shoot MGM (I was going to RO one year, but the truck broke) if we lost this match, it would be a major loss for the whole sport! It gives run and gun a whole new meaning. But MGM is an Amoeba shaped peg, and we’re never going to make a hole to fit it!

Even unified safety rules like the 180. Oklahoma, and hopefully, in Colorado soon, we have 360 degree berms. I think we should be able to use them! And Rocky Mountain 3-Gun and other matches that don’t have berms, the 180 is VERY flexible because of the nature of the beast!

I never participated in SOF, too young! (Okay, not too young, just wasn’t shooting then! ) But it is my understanding that there were different rules and scoring for different stages. They did this to be able to test the skill they wanted to on a stage. Outlaw matches kind of grew out of SOF, so why could those guys learn new rules for a stage, but we can’t figure out new rules for a match??

Johnson 3-Gun is all about choice. We had a stage the first year where shoot throughs counted. That’s not in anyone’s rules!!! I want to have room to be creative with my stage design. I don’t want to be told you can’t have an opportunity to shoot more than x targets from any one position. I like to design and shoot stages where you can stand at the back and pick them off or run up and hose!!! The USPSA rules don’t allow that. You can’t design a stage where everyone doesn’t have to go to the forward most box. I love going to matches with different stage designs, where I can look at my skills and figure out the best way to shoot it for me! Stand and shoots are not what I’m good at.

JJ’s love of 3-Gun came from Texas! They had choices, and while they had to get special permission from USPSA for both scoring and stage design, new unified rules probably won’t leave much room for bowling balls or metal doughnuts with bouncy poppers behind them, or a 15 foot high swinging clay machine, or a stage where you can only see one or two targets if you don’t get to the window fast enough!

In conclusion, (I know you’re thinking, my God, I thought she’d never shut up!) unified rules will cost money, it’s a scifi fantasy dream, because we will NEVER agree on what’s best, and it stifles creativity!

Instead of trying to unify, talk up what you like and constructively criticize what you don't. I've mentioned to some range masters some abandonment positions that seem unsafe, and given them ideas on how to improve. Sometimes, they listen, sometimes they don't. Let us MD’s steal/borrow from other matches. RM3G stole backers from R&R, and I think it’s an improvement! (But, I wouldn’t want a rule that you HAVE to use backers, ‘cause maybe sometimes, I won’t want to! ) Fort Benning stole and adapted Horner scoring from Blue Ridge. It may be a great improvement that works for them, but it may not work for us! Even USPSA is changing and adapting its 3-Gun rules, and it’s an improvement, but they’re still NOT what I want for my matches! I want more freedom!

3-Gun itself is ever changing amoeba, and that is part of the joy! When I go to SMM, I know what kind of things to expect that I’m not going to get anywhere else. MGM, you better take a trailer with ammo, Blue Ridge, you better cross train for 6 months, RM3G-bring your oxygen! It’s exciting and fun! The outlaw matches started for a reason, and I think most of us want to stay a little bit outlaw!

That’s my 467 cents!

Denise

[oldcurmudgeon]

Sine nobody can agree on unified rules for pistol-only matches, e.g. NRA, IDPA, USPSA, IPSC (no, USPSA isn't the same as IPSC), I suspect that unifying rules for three-gun will be at least three times as hopeless and maybe to the third order of magnitude hopeless (in total agreement with BenelliChick)

[Religious Shooter]

I just dont see that ANY changes in rules will have an effect on growing the sport... you like shooting it, or you dont.

It could have an impact on a specific match...but not the sport in general

... I think a consistency in the equipment rules can help the sport grow.

Say you were "selling" this sport to someone. You have Product A:

You have to buy an 8 rd tube for this match. You have to buy a 9+ tube for this here match and this here match. You can't use this positioning of your mag pouches here. But you can at this match. You have to buy this type of magazine to be optimally competitive. But you can't use those magazines at this match. So you gotta buy this set of magazines here. The let you use auto's here but not here and here...

Vs. Product B:

... All you have to do is buy X. It's good for all matchs for your selected division.

Which product is easier to sell?

[Mike P]

I just dont see that ANY changes in rules will have an effect on growing the sport... you like shooting it, or you dont.

It could have an impact on a specific match...but not the sport in general

... I think a consistency in the equipment rules can help the sport grow.

Say you were "selling" this sport to someone. You have Product A:

You have to buy an 8 rd tube for this match. You have to buy a 9+ tube for this here match and this here match. You can't use this positioning of your mag pouches here. But you can at this match. You have to buy this type of magazine to be optimally competitive. But you can't use those magazines at this match. So you gotta buy this set of magazines here. The let you use auto's here but not here and here...

Vs. Product B:

... All you have to do is buy X. It's good for all matchs for your selected division.

Which product is easier to sell?

What would be wrong with buying the equipment that YOU want to use and if it is illegal or impractical for some match just don't go.

If you really, really want to go, contact one of the wonderful sponsors, order what you need and drive on. Its just that simple.

Here's an idea though for rules unification, require all major matches to recognize Trooper class, then you can use whatever equipment you have, problem solved.

Mike

[Religious Shooter]

What would be wrong with buying the equipment that YOU want to use and if it is illegal or impractical for some match just don't go.

If we had more uniform equipment rules... whats stopping you from "buying the equipment that YOU want?" If we had more uniform rules absolutely nothing would stop you from buying what you want. Nothing. With more uniform equipment rules if it the equipment you have is "impractical for some match just don't go."

But if someone wanted to just buy one thing and be legal and competitive for every match? ...well you can't do that.

Don't you see by having more uniform equipment rules you can have your "if it is illegal or impractical for some match just don't go." But in addition be also be able to tell a new shooter to "buy X and be legal for all matches?"

[bigbrowndog]

Very Well said, Denise!!!!!!! BRAVO!!

RS, I'm sorry you seem to be hung up on something that really doesn't seem to be as big an issue with everyone else, simply read the rules beforehand, they are posted and readily available before a match starts, if you are uncertain pick up the phone or email. (statement is in regard to major matches)........................or don't go!!!!

You don't need to recognize Trooper Class, we have OPEN.

I'm getting ready to go shoot a local IDPA carbine match tomorrow, guess what I did yesterday,................................. checked the rules.

Trapr

Edited July 4, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[jobob]

I'm with Benelli Chick, even though I shoot Remingtons!

[Religious Shooter]

, I'm sorry you seem to be hung up on something that really doesn't seem to be as big an issue with everyone else, simply read the rules beforehand, they are posted and readily available before a match starts, if you are uncertain pick up the phone or email. (statement is in regard to major matches)........................or don't go!!!!

Trapr

Gee... don't go.

If you happen to look at the #'s of the poll most people want some uniformity in some areas.

What it boils down to is if you want the status quo stay with what we have now. But if you want the sport to grow and have increased participation you need some uniformity.

[Benelli Chick]

Whoops! One more thing!

I am shooting with basically the same guns that I started out shooting, and they are legal in ALL matches I go to! That's one of the reasons I chose Tactical Scope, so that I could stick with what I like! Yes! I do have a new rifle from Sabre that is Awesome and great, but other than it's general greatness and different side sights, it doesn't change the classification of the gun!

If you want to game a match, and fit your gun to stretch the rules, then you need to know that other matches won't accept it. I have an 8 round tube, and even if I could use a long one, I choose not to. No new equipment needed!

No matter what you have, you can shoot any match out there in Open. Yes, my sweet husband has a shotgun mag tube that is as tall as he is. At USPSA matches, he needs to plug the tube if he wants to use the "SPEER", but that's his choice!

If you want to start with something you can use in every match, go Tac Scope or Tac Iron and don't game it!

Bottom line: Even unified equipment rules are restrictive. Yes He-Man is it's own conundrum, but you can get the equipment to shoot any current match in He-Man and be legal in all matches!

Am I done yet? I hope so!

P.S.

Thanks for opening this topic, because it helps me as a match director to see that we really don't need a unified set of rules and there are lots of shooters out there that appreciate creativity as long as the rules are posted ahead of time and applied consistently!

[Religious Shooter]

RM3G should allow a second optic in Tactical Scope.

You talk the talk... but do you walk the walk?

[Benelli Chick]

Why? I'm standing by my rules. I like them. Second optic, seems open to me! Maybe some other match would be willing to let you go with that.

How am I not walking my talk? JJ and I spend hours, days, nights (sometimes while sleeping) trying to design creative, fun stages! That's what I believe in. When I go to any other match, I read the rules prior to attending and abide by them.

I like the differences!

Denise

[Topmaul]

Denise,

I second that, read the rules first some places have odd rules, on place I went had almost IDPA Rules for a 3 gun, it was crazy like "All magazines hold 10 rounds" penalties for dropping a mag on the deck with a live round in it. They had other silly rules but I can't remember them. Still most places have the rules posted on the website.

[itento]

It's interesting this subject comes up now. I've been considering switching to IMGA rules for over a year and, quite frankly my loyality to USPSA has prevented me doing that until last month. Here is what I posted to our web site:

After looking at it over a few days, I still think IMGA is the way to go for the following reasons:

1. IMGA rules are simpler. I really applaud USPSA for having extensive rules but quite frankly, for Multigun, you need to use no less than five rule books (Handgun, Rifle, Shotgun, Tournament, and Multigun). Most people haven’t read the Handgun rule book, much less the others. The IMGA rules adopted by most other Multigun/3 gun matches are much less complex but still adequate, in my opinion, to run a match safely and efficiently.

2. IMGA/Horner method of Time Plus is much easier to score and less prone to error than USPSA San Angelo method (you MUST have a computer and program to score). With time plus, results can be available immediately following the match. Score sheets are somewhat simpler, and you can use a variety of paper targets.

3. I want to attract some new shooters. I think the complexities of USPSA MG/3 Gun discourages potential new shooters. I talked with several individuals and their basic questions were about equipment. IMGA is much easier to understand with far less rules. In essence you have 4 classes. Open (practically anything goes), Tactical Optics (basically all other guns unless they have Open modifications, and the rifle can have 1 optic), Tactical Iron Sights (same as Tactical Optics but no optic on rifle), and Heavy Metal.

I then posted the Ft Beening 3 Gun Challenge rules with 2 small changes to meet our range requirements. One of the driving factors for me is: I HATE ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS IN OPEN. I want an OPEN class that is truly open (no comp restrictions, no optics (laser) restrictions, no rounds loaded/capacity restrictions. As I see it the only restriction in OPEN is bacially the 170mm mag in pistol (and I may do away with that also). Not that I think I would see 190mm magazines, but if that's the next generation step, so be it.

The other classes seem okay to level the playing field for both newbies and experienced shooters.

[bigbrowndog]

Denise, i believe you hit the nail on the head, that division is called...............OPEN

And if you buy an AR with iron sights, a pistol with 140mm mags, and a shotgun with an 8 round tube, you are good for all the matches i'm aware of, so RS, tell your new shooters that, and they'll be good to go.

That division is called Limited/Tact. Irons. if it doesn't fit in that category then you are in OPEN.

Trapr

[LChico]

, I'm sorry you seem to be hung up on something that really doesn't seem to be as big an issue with everyone else, simply read the rules beforehand, they are posted and readily available before a match starts, if you are uncertain pick up the phone or email. (statement is in regard to major matches)........................or don't go!!!!

Trapr

Gee... don't go.

If you happen to look at the #'s of the poll most people want some uniformity in some areas.

What it boils down to is if you want the status quo stay with what we have now. But if you want the sport to grow and have increased participation you need some uniformity.

Do you really still not get it? Yes, the poorly designed poll shows that a significant number of shooters want uniformity. The problem is that each individual is deciding what that uniformity should consist of, then voting. That doesn't indicate that they agree with you.

In their minds they are saying "yes, USPSA (or IMGA or SOF or IDPA or Horner 'modified' or NRA or 'My Own Variety') Rules would be best." Beyond the wishful thinking of the Poll, how do you reconcile that?

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

[kurtm]

Okay, here is another thing to think about. You say "grow the sport ", and yet all these "bad ununified" matches fill to the brim and have wait lists, the ONLY way to "grow the sport is to allow MORE shooters into the matchs available, and yet ALL of them cap off the number of competitors. You HAVE to or else you would never get done, So step up R.S. and put on your own big 3-gun and Help grow the sport...non-unified rules aren't keeping matches form being filled to overflow, so untill we start seeing slots go begging all of this discussion is simply mental master...Ah Er well you get the idea...or not. KURTM

[Religious Shooter]

Do you really still not get it? Yes, the poorly designed poll shows that a significant number of shooters want uniformity. The problem is that each individual is deciding what that uniformity should consist of, then voting. That doesn't indicate that they agree with you.

In their minds they are saying "yes, USPSA (or IMGA or SOF or IDPA or Horner 'modified' or NRA or 'My Own Variety') Rules would be best." Beyond the wishful thinking of the Poll, how do you reconcile that?

Did you read the part where I didn't think that unifiction was possible in my first post?

The poll isn't asking WHICH rule set(s) should be made uniform. It is asking SHOULD we have uniform rules. SHOULD the powers that be even seek to have unify some of the matches.

As I noted in my first post I think there should be some unification in the safety rules and "general" rules. There should be unification in equipment rules. And I like variety in the scoring (so "NO" on unified scoring).

Given that... how can you say "That doesn't indicate that they agree with you."

And note... the only thing specific as far as the rules I have said in thread... has been against USPSA. ... and of course the request the RM3G allows a second optic.

The scope of the thread wasn't meant for these rules are better than these rules.

[GentlemanJim]

Most of the matches I would like to go to...are full a year in advance.

Having MORE matches is the way to grow the sport

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

you interpret things the way you want to and others will, disagree. see its just like rules.

you can still be a low level shooter and put on a match!!!!!

So here is my challenge to you, start walking your talk and grow the sport, put on a match!!!!!

trapr

Edited July 4, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Religious Shooter]

Okay, here is another thing to think about. You say "grow the sport ", and yet all these "bad ununified" matches fill to the brim and have wait lists, the ONLY way to "grow the sport is to allow MORE shooters into the matchs available, and yet ALL of them cap off the number of competitors. You HAVE to or else you would never get done, So step up R.S. and put on your own big 3-gun and Help grow the sport...non-unified rules aren't keeping matches form being filled to overflow, so untill we start seeing slots go begging all of this discussion is simply mental master...Ah Er well you get the idea...or not. KURTM

I've never said that these matches were "bad".

To grow the sport you don't have to increase the cap. You can increase the # of matches being put on. The # of matches being put on is highly dependent on the # base of shooters that we have.

Which would help grow that base faster? A uniform set of (certain) rules. Or what we have today?

[GentlemanJim]

Build it!....they will come

Jim

[Religious Shooter]

So here is my challenge to you, start walking your talk and grow the sport, put on a match!!!!!

Suuuurrree... you gonna come to Kalifornia?

Let's see I gotta get a range or something. I gotta wrangel a bunch of shooters to help out... I gotta develop a more outgoing personality like KurtM... I have to learn how to talk...

Check back with me in ten or so years.

[Flexmoney]

Here is a plain and simple pointer. If you find that you are posting at somebody...and not posting about the topic...that would be a good time to take a break and pour yourself a tall cool glass...

You all don't take a hint well. And, I can't reach you with a 2x4 from here...so...

CLOSED.