Have Unified Rules for all 3 Gun Matches?

[bigbrowndog]

I'm miffed that certain people feel that making things the same so they can feel comfortable at a match instead of taking the time to READ the rules, will make things all better...................................for them!!!!!

Nothing is the same anywhere, state laws, speed limits, gun laws, flight procedures, the rules for CPR change every 5 or so years, and depending on your Medical Director they can be different from one municipality to the next. My point is just becuase they are different doesn't make them wrong, just different!!! Know the Rules, remember...................READING is FUNDAMENTAL.

If you choose not to know the rules then you can find yourself in OPEN, or DQ'd, or with a FTDR, or whatever but is that the matches fault or yours. The post you made about not being comfortable with certain ruling differences for different matches, is the one that I recall the most.

There are certain things that I don't care for at certain matches but guess what, I deal with it or I don't go.

While I do agree with PK that some of the differences are quite silly, and that some MD are not quite sure of what is in the rules they use. I do not intend on trying to get them to change them once they are established, simply because I want them to be a certain way.

Trapr

Edited July 3, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[bgary]

Speaking as a *shooter*, I think that

-- a consistent set of safety rules is a necessary foundation. The same *emphasis* on safety, consistently applied, is a must, IMHO. I *hate* going to matches where (for example) people are looking at each other through their weapon-mounted scopes while waiting their turn to shoot. It, quite simply, creeps me out, and that's not a good thing for the game.

-- a consistent set of equipment rules. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a match and found out that my equipment (which was good at every other match I went to) is all of a sudden not valid for *this* match director's whims. If you scan the 3-gun/multigun forums here, the vast majority of the questions are "is my [whatever] going to be allowed at that match?". Again, that kind of thrash is just not good for the game.

As far as scoring? Heck, that's where I happen to think diversity is good. USPSA's bias is towards a balanced triad of accuracy-power-speed. If other matches want to bias their scoring towards accuracy (horner) or speed (time-plus), or whatever, I say have at it! It's all good. the only thing I would ask is that the esoterical of the scoring approach be announced and broadly communicated, so that we know what to expect and can vote with our feet.

Edited to add: It isn't the *differences* that are bad, it is the *surprises*.

Hell, USPSA said that they canvased the Heavy Metal community before the division rules were posted. You can call me NOBODY but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has shot more major matches with HM gear (including HM gear in Limited Division) than I have and queried I was not.

Queried you were, my friend. I made the query myself, and you may recall we had a nice chat on the phone when I was drafting the first set of USPSA multigun rules. Unfortunately, building consensus on the board for a clear set of HM rules proved to be difficult, and the compromise position for USPSA was to make it a "category", applicable to any of several divisions, until we could gather enough information to make a better decision. As with most things, the compromise didn't really satisfy anyone...

B

Edited July 3, 2008 by bgary

[TRUBL]

First off.....Safety rules? I've actually not heard at any time that the safety rules of any certain major 3 gun match were out of wack. OK....I'm talking general safety rules. As to how a gun should be abandoned on a COF? That can get pretty gray....safety on? gun empty? mag's out? pointed in a certain direction?, etc. etc. Personally.....thats a read the rules and abide by it, send feed back and next time if ya don't like it....don't go.

Scoring....no brainer, read the rules before you go on scoring....like Big hamp said, the guy that shoots the fastest and most accurate is gonna win, everyone else is scored the same. Again....the feed back clause.

Equipment......Well, I'm thinking for the most part Open is open (mag tube thing...USPSA and some IMGA 10+1, others whatever you can carry) tactical...pretty much the same all over (exception mag tube thing again....8+1 for the entire COF, or 8+1 to start then what ever you can carry).

It's those .308 boys that are causing all the trouble, I tell ya....I know, I used to be one. They screw it up for everyone, why there wouldn't even be this post if it wasn't for them. I say we just outlaw the antique round and eveyone will live happily ever after. They are smallest group in 3gun and cause the most headaches!! Why are we bowing down to these guys??? They make up maybe 5% of the entire 3 gun community. Are our match directors a bunch of whimpy politicians that try to please the minority and could care less about the real people that actually shoot the match. Maybe these trouble makers would be happier if we just made the entire 3 gun game revolve around them. What if EVERYONE shot .308, would heavy metal be .338Win mag? or .405 Lott?? It's time to act up people, you are losing your sport to these guys and they are laughing at you everytime you pay your entry fee!!

The last part of this post was made for the benefit of my very good friends Tate, Pat, Benny, Mel, Trapr, Merlin, Eddie and Wayne

Edited July 3, 2008 by TRUBL

[LChico]

Tim,

Can I get you a bigger paddle to stir that pot with?

I was going to include a warning about 'poking the bear' but you are obviously having too much fun.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[J-Ho]

As bgary said, it's the suprises in the rules that suck. I haven't really had a problem with this, but anything bigger than a club match usually has equipment rules posted. I have seen someone actually ask a Match Director an equipment related question (gasp!) BEFORE going to the match.

[P.E. Kelley]

Hell, USPSA said that they canvased the Heavy Metal community before the division rules were posted. You can call me NOBODY but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has shot more major matches with HM gear (including HM gear in Limited Division) than I have and queried I was not.

Queried you were, my friend. I made the query myself, and you may recall we had a nice chat on the phone when I was drafting the first set of USPSA multigun rules. Unfortunately, building consensus on the board for a clear set of HM rules proved to be difficult, and the compromise position for USPSA was to make it a "category", applicable to any of several divisions, until we could gather enough information to make a better decision. As with most things, the compromise didn't really satisfy anyone...

B

I stand corrected. I have some recollection of our conversation. In the interest of full disclosure Mr. Taylor has asked a question or two also.

I equated the questions with answers that were more satisfactory.

As you said "the compromise didn't really satisfy anyone..."

Ultimatly Mr. Ubl has the answer. Let us just kill off the whiners in Heavy Metal and move on.

Sorry I am so grumpy about this but the whole HM thing did not go anywhere near where I hoped it would.

Time for me to go to the mirror and yell.........WHO GIVES A RATS, SHUT UP AND SHOOT!

Patrick

Edited July 3, 2008 by P.E. Kelley

[el pres]

I run TacScope gear that applies to the tightest rules that way I'm good at every match.

DOH, behind the hip, 8+1, 30's coupled, etc..etc..

The thing that tics me off the most is not the inconsistancy of the rules but the inconsistancy of

the enforcment of the rules. Different rules at different matches are part of the challenge, read em

and remember them during the match. ie. burnning the last round into the berm, ok at one match not

the other.

The thing that gets me is when I read the rules and I get to the match and they are not being

enforced then at another match they are giving out penalties or bumping people to Open. Things like limited

holsters....trigger guard behind centerline of pants...it's in the rules but guys are shooting TacScope with Ghost

holsters at 2 o'clock ??? some of the RO'c are not even sure if that's a violation or not because they

cant remember what rules they are useing !!

[bigbrowndog]

Pat, on the gear at the hip thing, you realize thats only regarding pistol stuff, right???? not SG and Rifle.

At least thats the way I read it, .........................here's a novel idea lets ask the MD, before the next match, to make sure.

Hey, its a shallow pond, but the fish can be quite big. its just when they throw in a new species offshoot that it gets........weird.

Trapr

[P.E. Kelley]

Pat, on the gear at the hip thing, you realize thats only regarding pistol stuff, right???? not SG and Rifle.

At least thats the way I read it, .........................here's a novel idea lets ask the MD, before the next match, to make sure.

Hey, its a shallow pond, but the fish can be quite big. its just when they throw in a new species offshoot that it gets........weird.

Trapr

Yea Trapr I read it the same way, still goofy.

How about the DPMS rules about DQ for a mag with more than 8 rounds?

Nice rule?

Patrick

[bigbrowndog]

Pat, that is a bit harsh, but its only one of several strange things they have in the rules.

it really is funny what you'll find in the rules, if you just read them, sometimes you find out stuff that can work to your benefit.

J-Ho, the rules Benny will be using are????????????????????????????????call Benny, did I say that out loud?!?!?!

sadly I am scheduled to be at work that day, and we have a lot of training and skills evals set for July, I really can't afford to miss them.

Denise, most of the time when Scout is with me, which he will be at RM3g, the initial greeting from people goes like this, "Hi!!! Scout, man its been a long time, are you getting bigger..................Oh, hi trapr. or in Benny's case, I get called Scout and he gets called Trapr.

back to topic, the same general rules would be "convenient", Necessary,.........NO, Needed,.........NO. Some MD's don't mind tossing your guns into barrels, on safe. But heaven forbid if you do it and its EMPTY, but not on safe, then you're DQ'd.

So what!!!!! just play by the rules, they provide.

when i went to UK, and got DQ'd for breaking the 20degree muzzle restriction, i was upset, Heck i was unloaded and clear before the RO told me, because I knew what I had done when he yelled, STOP!!!! I didn't ask people to go see if i could be reinstated, because it was a silly rule, it was their rule. and I was playing on their range at their match. I told the MD, not to be upset, I was OK with the ruling, and that I'd be back next year.

Now I'm going back, to kick their silly little arses, TEAM AMERICA BABY, F@#K Yeah!!!!!!

Mikey, that one was for you.

Trapr

[Flexmoney]

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.

No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.

Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable

Note: I gutted about a dozen posts that were back-n-forth...or replying to some of the back-n-forth.

I did so to open the thread back up.

Here is a plain and simple pointer. If you find that you are posting at somebody, and not posting about the topic...that would be a good time to take a break and pour yourself a tall cool glass...

- Admin

[mlmiller1]

Our club is just starting to hold 3 gun matches. We have decided at first as we get experience, to follow the uspsa rules. They are well organized, easy to access, cover most of the potential problems & require no contingency plans in case of this or that. Also, scoring is relatively easy since it is pretty much what I'm used to doing with pistol matches. Now, having said that, I can see why folks shoot or want to use other types of scoring, etc. I just got home from the Johnson 3-gun & had a great time using the rules they determined they wanted their match to follow & the scoring they wanted to use. The important thing is they posted their rules, they followed their rules & it worked out great.

For now, though, our club will use the uspsa rules until we get enough experience to go out & "experiment" with other methods.

I find it hard, with my minimal experience, to try to "adapt" to this or that or the other rule. I really would like the safety rules to be consistent. I want them hard wired in to my little pea brain. If you have to have refreshers every match on which rules you are using here & now, it gets hard to stay safe within the rules. Maybe that is just my weakness but that is how I feel.

Obviously we will never agree on what all the safety rules should be. Because of that, I feel I will never be able to shoot completely up to my potential. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to adapt. That is very possible. But, for me, safety, & safely following the rules of the match are way ahead of trying to win. I will therefore shoot 3-gun every chance I can, & have fun. I'll try to follow all of the "local rules" of whatever match I'm shooting.

It is a pipe dream but I wish we could have standard safety rules. We can't, it will never happen. Too bad. I'll keep having fun & just go on.

MLM

[buzzworm]

As scoring goes, like someone said a while back "any way you score it, it all amounts to shots/hits per second" That may be a little over simplified, but fairly accurate.

Equipment, as so many others have said, read the rules. (just ask Denise about the ??? I had before driving out to RM3G)

Now that Tim has sturred the pot, let me go a step further, but in a different direction. In my opinion, USPSA will NEVER play by anyone elses rules. Not a slam, just my feelings on it. If correct, then just for discussion, say we play by those rules. Now, do all the folks that want standardized rules also want "classes"? How about classifier stages? More divisions, so we can bring in all the --fill in the blank--- shooters?

I don't believe rules for equipment or scoring make a difference to NEW shooters, (our local clubs don't enforce equipment rules for first time shooters except for safety) so I don't think standardizing will bring in any more shooters. Like said earlier, new shooters are there having fun, and it takes most some time to get the hang of scoring, but which is easier for the shooter to get the hang of, IMGA or USPSA?

I like having different rules in different matches. It helps the MD to get the most out of his or her match, and in the end that is good for the folks shooting it.

[Merlin Orr]

Personally...I like a varied menu. In my food...In my entertainment...In the various games I play of all kinds. If "someone" took the position that all food service establishments were henceforth to serve only one menu "for consistency of product and safety to the diner" you would have to force feed me. I think a majority would feel the same way. Yet I see that there are those who think that force feeding me what they consider to be the proper shooting diet is not only OK but seem to be unable to understand why there is opposition to their agenda.

I see no need to try and wrap everything up with a bow tie and put it in some neat little box.... If you don't care for the scoring or requirements of a particular match - stay home...Don't come over to my house and start telling me what to serve for dinner.

(insert Yosemite Sam icon stating Back the **** up!)

[ken hebert]

Run what ya brung, just do it how they wany ya to. Kinda like driving: you can have a fast car, just do the speed limit.

[J-Ho]

Damn another reply blown into oblivion.

Back to topic.

There is a unified set of rules. It's called USPSA. It is not the fault of the outlaw matches that more people don't shoot USPSA. Look on the IDPA rules thread.There is a sticky there that was a post of mine. (God knows it's one of the few sensable things I've said) USPSA is NOT the only game in town! If you like the way USPSA multi-gun rules are run, go to USPSA matches. Bam! Problem solved. Unified rules. If you like RM3G rules, go to the RM3G. Bam! Problem solved. Unified rules. 3 gun is just like the pistol only side of things. There are different governing bodies. No, 3 gun is not as wide spread so there isn't as much choice, if you like one rule set, but the way to increase the one you like is NOT to bitch about the other rules, but increase the number of people who play by the rules you like. If there isn't one, start one. Putting on a match is tough work, but you don't need to be a great shooter to run a match. If your rule set is popular, it might spread. Why do you think there is a thread about the Horner scoring? Instead of calling for unification, why not promote your favorite rule set? Instead of saying "hey, the way you guys do things sucks." Try "I like this way. Here's why. "

[LChico]

Damn another reply blown into oblivion.

Back to topic.

There is a unified set of rules. It's called USPSA. It is not the fault of the outlaw matches that more people don't shoot USPSA. Look on the IDPA rules thread.There is a sticky there that was a post of mine. (God knows it's one of the few sensable things I've said) USPSA is NOT the only game in town! If you like the way USPSA multi-gun rules are run, go to USPSA matches. Bam! Problem solved. Unified rules. If you like RM3G rules, go to the RM3G. Bam! Problem solved. Unified rules. 3 gun is just like the pistol only side of things. There are different governing bodies. No, 3 gun is not as wide spread so there isn't as much choice, if you like one rule set, but the way to increase the one you like is NOT to bitch about the other rules, but increase the number of people who play by the rules you like. If there isn't one, start one. Putting on a match is tough work, but you don't need to be a great shooter to run a match. If your rule set is popular, it might spread. Why do you think there is a thread about the Horner scoring? Instead of calling for unification, why not promote your favorite rule set? Instead of saying "hey, the way you guys do things sucks." Try "I like this way. Here's why. "

+1

I think we need to make this post a 'sticky' on the 3 gun forum.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

[bigbrowndog]

YEAH!!!, and he's from TEXAS!!!!!

trapr

[AikiDale]

The REAL Heavy Metal. 20 rd. 308. Iron sight rifle. 45 cal pistol 8 rds. 12 gauge pump shotgun. DONE.

If needed put this in the rant section as this pisses this normally happy fellow OFF!!!

OUT

Patrick

Question Patrick: Why is it that a semi-automatic rifle and a semi-automatic pistol are good for HM and a semi-auto shotgun is not? Things like this confuse new 3 gunners. I don't object mind you, I'll play by whatever rules everyone else is playing by. I'm just confused.

[P.E. Kelley]

The REAL Heavy Metal. 20 rd. 308. Iron sight rifle. 45 cal pistol 8 rds. 12 gauge pump shotgun. DONE.

If needed put this in the rant section as this pisses this normally happy fellow OFF!!!

OUT

Patrick

Question Patrick: Why is it that a semi-automatic rifle and a semi-automatic pistol are good for HM and a semi-auto shotgun is not? Things like this confuse new 3 gunners. I don't object mind you, I'll play by whatever rules everyone else is playing by. I'm just confused.

I don't have an answer for you. If you do a search you will find a couple of very well assembled posts; one by Eddie Rhoads and one by VN3Gunner that explains the concept.

I am tired of the debate and I will cease to contribute.

It is time to just go with the flow.

Unlimited capacity, Optics and selfloading shotguns.

Maybe I will just go back to pistol shooting.

Later

Patrick

[Blockhead]

IMHO, we should try to address these issues based on what is going to improve and grow our sport as opposed to what we like/dislike as individuals. We should pursue a set of MG rules that regulate just enough to provide maximum benefit for the overall group with the least measure of restriction applied to our freedoms as shooters, clubs, MD's and National Associations. That's easily said but very hard to do. It would be complicated and difficult for sure. But think of the benefits. Consistency with regards to range procedures, targets, equipment, safety, etc... would enable us to compete on a broader platform and encourage growth in our community.

I believe the USPSA Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and MG Addendum are a very comprehensive base to start with. Problem is there's so much that's duplicated between the P, R & SG except for those little "gotchyas" where they're different. I'd realy like to see a consolidated MG rulebook. I'm also not a big fan of San Angelo scoreing either. I think Andy Horner's scoring system is certainly a step in the right direction.

In the end, it's up to the leaders of our sport to decide whether or not they see the potential for enough added value in a unified rulebook to justify the difficulty involved in pursuing it. I appreciate Gordon starting this pole/thread. I'm real interested in the outcome.

[persona non grata]

I get a litte nervous seeing people carry unbagged guns (on a cart with a flag is Okay), but I guess that's up to the individual bigger 3 gun matches MD's and the ranges those matches are run on .

I really don't care about unified rules. If a big match has their rules posted to the web, preferably where I can download them in a .pdf format and print them out long before the entry form turn in date, then IMO it is caveat emptor.

As far as Blockhead's comments about growing our sport, with gas at over 4 bucks a gallon and .223 factory ammo running 50 cents a shot, I don't think too many people are goning to have enough discretionary income left over to keep one gun (the pistol) running, let alone 3.

[bigsaxdog]

Personally...I like a varied menu. In my food...In my entertainment...In the various games I play of all kinds. If "someone" took the position that all food service establishments were henceforth to serve only one menu "for consistency of product and safety to the diner" you would have to force feed me. I think a majority would feel the same way. Yet I see that there are those who think that force feeding me what they consider to be the proper shooting diet is not only OK but seem to be unable to understand why there is opposition to their agenda.

I see no need to try and wrap everything up with a bow tie and put it in some neat little box.... If you don't care for the scoring or requirements of a particular match - stay home...Don't come over to my house and start telling me what to serve for dinner.

(insert Yosemite Sam icon stating Back the **** up!)

+1...........yeah, what he said!!! it just seems wrong to me that USPSA wants to put 3-Gun in a box! too hard to do, too many choices. if this does happen, imagine the range lawyers...... i'm scared already! never really seen a big match without the rules posted clearly, and if you got a question, ask the MD, and you get an answer. everybody is trying to work the rules anyway, so it's more fun when they change so you get a different look. the only problem w/tactical now is that pistol power factor is not addressed, alot of guys running mouse-fart 9's to an advantage, and if you make power factor caliber specific without a chrono stage, everyone will run mouse-fart 40's, so..... the administration of this would be difficult/time consuming at an already hard to run match, so i don't really have an answer..... but i hate being put in a box...... and bringing up parallel references of national speed limits, food service, the IRS, health inspections for sex-workers, etc, is lame....... this is a game.......

[bigbrowndog]

the mouse fart loads are addressed by minimum caliber calibration, the individual shooter takes on the risk that the loads will topple steel. in the matches that I am aware of the MD or RM checks the steel with factory 9.

your idea of mouse fart and mine may be different, for me 100-110pf (steel load) is mouse fart range, and i have used them in a match and been very disappointed. a 125pf load should work just fine, I prefer 135pf for 9 or 40. you never know when a piece of steel will get heavy or the angle it is engaged cause problems.

it seems most people tout USPSA rules as being the ones they prefer, i see that as simply because its what they are used to from shooting pistol. given enough experience shooting other rule sets you could easily become used to others that are out there. personally i prefer IMGA rules in all the variations to USPSA, because they are simple, and do not require a degree in legalese to read them and understand them. Given the number of questions that the Front Sight takes regarding rules, it seems clear to me that those participating in USPSA do not grasp or understand the rules either, even some of the responses from the Rule Guy, are disputed by others and most of the time the responses are unclear and vague. I have participated in USPSA since 1998, and have reached the conclusion that KISS is a much better way to compete.

Trapr

[GentlemanJim]

I just dont see that ANY changes in rules will have an effect on growing the sport... you like shooting it, or you dont.

It could have an impact on a specific match...but not the sport in general

Changes will make some folks happy ...and some less than happy.

The only place I would ask for one set of rules ...would be safety, including abandoned arms, unbagging ect

As for the rest...I have no issues following whatever rules apply to any given match, just let me know what they are.

I like three gun, and would go to any match I can.

See you there

Jim