Have Unified Rules for all 3 Gun Matches?

[Religious Shooter]

A lot of opinions for or against having common rules between matches. I don't think it is possible. But I just wanted to see what the actual #'s are for or against having a common set of rules.

Personally it bugs me that I can unbag my gun(s) at the car at almost all matches but at real USPSA matches I would get DQ'd.

It bugs me that a USPSA match I can step on a box (and not go over the edge and touch the ground) but on some other matches if I do the same it is considered out of a box.

It bugs me that I can have a 25 rd mag in HM at a certain match (and just download it). But in another match if I happen to have a "20 round" magazine with weak springs that can accept 21 rds I would be shooting out of division.

Etc.

But... I don't mind different scoring systems.

[J-Ho]

Hmmm, I think I've heard this song before.

I think you know my answer already.

The poll number will be interesting though.

[Steve J]

I'm afraid this poll might yield skewed results. An honest "to each his own" individual would vote no, whereas individuals who are adamantly in favor of completely different systems might both vote yes.

[uscbigdawg]

Variety is the spice of life. General rules and safety, yep. Everything else...nope.

[maineshootah]

Variety is the spice of life. General rules and safety, yep. Everything else...nope.

+1

[Religious Shooter]

Variety can give you heartburn.

[Religious Shooter]

Edited July 3, 2008 by Religious Shooter

[uscbigdawg]

So can half the Mexican joints I like back home but seriously who could pass up seconds?

Rich

[Alan Meek]

So can half the Mexican joints I like back home but seriously who could pass up seconds?

Rich

+100

Still looking for a decent Mexican place here in VA and I do not want TexMex with my apologies to the Enosverse family in Texas.

Alan

[Scout454]

Alan -

El Paso on Opitz Blvd across from Home Depot in Woodbridge.

[Benelli Chick]

Common safety rules would be good...but...reality. Whose rules??? Can you abandon your gun on safe? Does it have to be empty?

Some ranges do not allow you to get your guns out in the car. Here in Colorado, most of our clubs allow it, but more and more are limiting it, and so to get "common" rules, ranges that allow it are going to limit it for IPSC matches. If a range or a match can allow a little more freedom (still SAFE) I think that's a good thing!

As for the others, I agree, Variety (I know, Danger, Kurt) is the spice of life!

I'm not sure why it's so hard to read the rules and know what you need to do. In "REAL" life, there are different rules. A while ago someone asked what it would be like if the speed limits were different in every state. Obviously, he hasn't driven from Colorado East. Trust me, new speed limit in every state!!! 75, 60, 65! There are different gun laws in every state, city, county. You're expected to know them and follow them. We should be used to different rules by now.

Different ranges and different challenges require different rules! Choice is a good thing!

Again, my two cents!

[Charles Bond]

In review of this poll, keep in mind you are not likely to get votes from those that would like to shoot 3 gun but do not or used to shoot 3 gun but do not now.

The biggest barriers seem to be distance, equipment rules and scoring rules. I can not tell you how many times I have heard someone say that they would like to shoot 3 gun but because equipment that is allowed at one match is not allowed at another, they don't want to buy the stuff that will work well for them at one match and not be used in another.

Another comment I have heard is that they do not believe they should have to learn a new set of scoring for each kind of match.

But by far the comment most often is that they can not afford to travel long distances to shoot these matches. While most of them have the available firearms, the better 3 gun matches are too far away for them to be able to attend.

It is pretty clear to me that having unified rules would solve most of these problems and allow growth in 3 gun. With growth we get increased demand which results in more reasons to host more 3 gun matches which would be closer to the shooters who can not travel as far. A rising tide raises all boats.

Many of you have strong opinions about one rule version or another and actually I do as well. If I however balance my desire for the rules and scoring to be MY WAY vs. having the opportunity to shoot more matches, I am going to go with the more matches option.

[Larry White]

Alan -

El Paso on Opitz Blvd across from Home Depot in Woodbridge.

Is that anything like the place in New Mexico?-----------Larry

[tewlman]

It is pretty clear to me that having unified rules would solve most of these problems and allow growth in 3 gun. With growth we get increased demand which results in more reasons to host more 3 gun matches which would be closer to the shooters who can not travel as far. A rising tide raises all boats.

I agree with this point, though reluctantly. I do have to admit that the gear I shoot at one match is the same gear I shoot at every match and I have not been in violation of anyones specialized rules. I dont try to "game" the equipment, I just go out and shoot the best that I can with what I have. I do read the match rules before I get on the road and like at BRM3G, I had to scamble around and figure out how I was going to sling my long guns but it wasn't a big deal, I just had never been to a match that required slings. It was lots of fun to shoot so I was glad I did it.

The bigest problem with unified rules is that unlike major USPSA matches that use the same core RO's, the multi gun matches use mostly local help. Obviously we are glad they help but they may not always have the experience that the USPSA RO's have.

Scoring...i did like the Horner system. It was simple and forced more people to actually look at their sights but really i dont pay much attention to what scoring system the match of the day is using. Again, just shoot to the best of your ability and dont worry about it.

But, if it were good for 3 gunning in general and would potentially draw more competition then I would be for standardizing all of it.

2 cents....

[Religious Shooter]

I think the equipment rules are actually rather fairly the same in Lim/Tactical and Tactical Scope/Iron. It's only really messed up in HM. And not a lot of people shoot HM. So I don't think the people who voted "NO" on equipment unification have a lot of voters who are HM shooters. And since they aren't actually experiencing the variety in the equipment rules... they vote "NO".

If one or two organizations or matches said OK to second optics in TS/TI...

If one or two organizations or matches said OK to detachable magazines for shotguns in TS/TI...

If one or two organizations or matches said you can only shoot Glocks in TS/TI (because we ALL know Glocks rule )...

... how many of those votes would still be "NO" to the unification of equipment rules?

"YES" to unified rules in equipment is winning by a healthy margin. But it should be DOMINATING!!!!!

[Alan Meek]

I'll add my 1/2 cent here.

At the recently concluded Larue Tactical 2008 Area 8 Multigun Championship the Rifle stage had 4 flash targets at ~200yds. Per USPSA rules these targets were worth 10pts per hit. That means a miss was -20pts. 40% of the shooters zeroed the stage. The Stage Description. The shooter reengaged the 4 flash targets from 4 different positions. There was also 6 Metric IPSC targets at close range to be engaged for a total of 220 stage points. The Rifle match did matter for the overall results.

As far as scoring system we used the San Angelo Scoring mainly because there is no other option in USPSA Multigun rules for a Level 3 Area Championship. Plus we used a truckload or two of steel and more clay birds than a round of Trap.

Now, while I am not an avid 3gun/multigunner the biggest thing I see has little to do with what scoring system you use, but more with what I call the personality of the match. I feel this is true in the USPSA handgun matches, The Steel Challenge and all of the various Multigun matches out there.

Alan Meek

USPSA

Director Area 8

Edited July 3, 2008 by Alan Meek

[Scout454]

Alan -

El Paso on Opitz Blvd across from Home Depot in Woodbridge.

Is that anything like the place in New Mexico?-----------Larry

Not only no but HE!! No! This one is run and staffed by Mexicans.

[Larry White]

Alan -

El Paso on Opitz Blvd across from Home Depot in Woodbridge.

Is that anything like the place in New Mexico?-----------Larry

Not only no but HE!! No! This one is run and staffed by Mexicans.

In that case I hope they are old mexicans cause those new mexicans didnt cut it.----------Larry

[bigbrowndog]

Easy on the racial comments there big fella, some of us are mexican!!!!

As for the poll question, RS, at what point do you feel that having every thing the same would make things better!!!!!!

READ, Benelli Chicks response in the Horner topic, I think its SPOT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you or anyone else wants everything to be the same, or If you feel bugged because a club or match wants to interpret a rule differently from what you are comfortable with, then just go shoot those matches that use the SAME RULES. And leave every one else's VARIETY ALONE.

Trapr

Edited July 3, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Religious Shooter]

As for the poll question, RS, at what point do you feel that having every thing the same would make things better!!!!!!

READ, Benelli Chicks response in the Horner topic, I think its SPOT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you or anyone else wants everything to be the same, then just go shoot those matches that use the SAME RULES. And leave every one else's VARIETY ALONE.

Trapr

Did you read my initial post? I don't know were you are getting I want "everything to be the same."

Benelli Chick and the other MD's have the RIGHT as match presenters to do as they please.

But the question is... do the majority of the shooters at large agree with what the match presenters are doing?

Are you miffed of the possibility that a majority of the shooters want some commonality in the rules?

[D.Hayden]

Speaking only on the tactical rules:

For equipment rules... I've just gone to the most common denominator: SMM3G. That seems to be the rules that are the most restrictive, but they work fine everywhere else.

Safety rules.. I'd like to have one common set... especially on the rules regarding gun abandonment (empty, safe, etc). Only because I'm used to one way.. it would be easy to forget and fully unload if that was the matches rules.. a little RO help/coaching here, would be a nice reminder.

Scoring.. whatever you want.. lol

[LChico]

I'm afraid this poll might yield skewed results. An honest "to each his own" individual would vote no, whereas individuals who are adamantly in favor of completely different systems might both vote yes.

Common safety rules would be good...but...reality. Whose rules??? Can you abandon your gun on safe? Does it have to be empty?

Different ranges and different challenges require different rules! Choice is a good thing!

I agree completely. I voted 'yes' on 'Unified Safety and "General" Rules' but I suspect that getting anyone to agree on what those rules should be. . . daunting task, at best. I wanted to vote 'No,' but that seemed to open things up to too much chaos. Many matches are using VERY similar general & safety rules now. Some of the variations are because of range limitations or local regulations. Two of the matches I work are on Military bases. The "Range Control" regulations and staff at Military venues may require modification of some safety rules or general rules, but I don't want to eliminate Military facilities from hosting matches for civilians.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

[LChico]

I'm not sure why it's so hard to read the rules and know what you need to do. In "REAL" life, there are different rules. A while ago someone asked what it would be like if the speed limits were different in every state. Obviously, he hasn't driven from Colorado East. Trust me, new speed limit in every state!!! 75, 60, 65!

The biggest questions/complaints I hear are about Equipment. Firearms, gear & ammo are a substantial investment. They need to be sure they spent their hard earned money on stuff that will work for most matches. I agree with Denise that the shooters need to read the rules. They are investing 'time' into reading & understanding the scoring rules. As long as the scoring system is fair and clear, I'm not sure it presents an insurmountable obstacle to anyone (as opposed to requiring 1911 style pistols only in HM, which can be a problem for anyone who planned to use a revolver).

Scoring...i did like the Horner system. It was simple and forced more people to actually look at their sights but really i dont pay much attention to what scoring system the match of the day is using. Again, just shoot to the best of your ability and dont worry about it.

Yes! Well said. No matter which scoring system is used, the same handful of shooters is at the top, same group in the middle, and, yes, usually the same group filling in the end.

I DO NOT agree that understanding the scoring is a significant barrier to getting new shooters. If that were true, USPSA pistol would have nearly zero growth.

No one starts shooting USPSA and understands the scoring system. Many shoot several matches & get hooked on the 'fun' before they start trying to figure out how we calculate scores. See the number of threads on this forum alone that explain USPSA scoring to new shooters. Usually it takes months or a Level 1 RO class before they really understand.

I think shooters vote with their dollars. They decide which matches best fit their limited budgets in terms of dollars and in terms of time. I am going to quote Merlin from another thread:

Looks to me like the 3 gun shooting public has already spoken down through the past years.... Which matches always sell out in a matter of minutes and which don't sell out at all.

If one set of rules will bring in more shooters I think it would be apparent by having a larger following than the others. Actually I see this to have already been demonstrated as such by looking at the last few years 3 gun matches.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

[P.E. Kelley]

DPMS RULES FOR HEAVY METAL PISTOL

6.7.3.3 No more than 8 rounds allowed in any magazine at any time. (Single Stack Rules)

6.7.3.3.1 Violation of the 8-round magazine rule will be considered “Unsportsmanlike Conduct” and result in Match DQ.

D f'ing Q for that!!!! Everyone else gets bumped up to OPEN!!! This is one major thing I OBJECT to!!!!

Some other oddities....

A number of 3 gun matches casually refer us to the DPMS rules as those governing their match.

Since Heavy Metal (and Limted division for that matter) is fast becoming a bastard child who cares if it impinges on "those guys"

1911 Only here, 40 or 45 there, sometimes 8 rounds and then again 10, major cal rifle recognised.... sometimes, auto shotgun separate then combined with pump.

Heavy Metal MUST USE FULL POWER SLUGS!!!, but 520 power factor is quoted within the same rules.

Holsters and allied equipment must be behind the apex of the hip (SMMG) for Limited and HM and I think Tact too.....Who thought that was a good idea at a 3 gun match?

Their are more.

Sure I read the rules for each and every match I attend. But the fact is some match directors are not aware of

what is in the rules they use! Some of the rules are plain foolish but even after petitioning changes are haphazard at best.

Scoring pick one pick another it's all good. Safety rules ARE USPSA borne simple as that. Equipment rules are still at the WHIM of the match director.

Hell, USPSA said that they canvased the Heavy Metal community before the division rules were posted. You can call me NOBODY but you would be hard pressed to find anyone

who has shot more major matches with HM gear (including HM gear in Limited Division) than I have and queried I was not.

I would please ask that all the major match directors get together and standardize HM equipment rules.

The REAL Heavy Metal. 20 rd. 308. Iron sight rifle. 45 cal pistol 8 rds. 12 gauge pump shotgun. DONE.

If needed put this in the rant section as this pisses this normally happy fellow OFF!!!

OUT

Patrick

[Nik Habicht]

Theoretically --- it sure would be nice if every match could operate under one rules umbrella (USPSA rules work pretty well for me...)

Realistically though ---- that would mean the end of a bunch of matches. For instance --- if USPSA rules prevail (and if we expand this to the pistol arena), then GSSF, IDPA, Bowling Pins, non-Steel Challenge steel matches, not to mention a boatload of shotgun, rifle and 3 gun matches fall by the wayside.

That said ---- I'm perfectly o.k. with different rules for different matches as long as they are published beforehand. I don't base my attendance decision on rules ---- I base it on match reputation, past experience with the match or the team of people putting it on, cost, distance, legality of shooting in the jurisdiction, time, stage descriptions, friends who are going, etc.

I've never yet encountered a match that I wanted to stop returning to based on a single experience. I've had some match experiences that I can take or leave --- some years I shoot them, other years I have minor conflicts and don't make the effort.....

The question's a little too complicated for a mere three pronged poll.....