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Ben Stoeger


Ben Stoeger

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In 2008, I shot a stage and was surprised to see a very close target scored an Alpha/Mike. I call my shots pretty well usually and had not recalled missing this target. The hole looked funny and I was sure at that point that I had a “double”. The RO did not agree. I was not an a_-hole about it but I requested the target be pulled. I of course was denied the double. I wasn’t happy about this… but I wasn’t really mad. I saw that no matter if I hit the target or not, I was looking like a dickhead having the target pulled. I learned at that time the proper procedure is to never, under any circumstances, argue for a double.

I have had it happen on one other occasion since then where I was sure I had two hits in one hole. It was a funny shaped hole on a close target that had not been changed for about 30 shooters. I asked the RO to take a second look at it and that was it. I did not have the target pulled. I just walked away and left it at that. I really think that is the proper procedure.

Just a question on these incidents, did either the RO, CRO or RM, use overlays to determine whether it was "double" or not. As a competitor you can request the use of overlays to verify if it was indeed 2 shots, under Rule 9.6.8

Cheers ....

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A competitor can make a mistake in thinking he called two hits close together, and he can also be dishonest and pushy in arguing for a double. An RO can make a mistake in hastily denying two hits on a target, and he can also be biased for or against the shooter when he makes the call.

Of course, doubles also really happen whether they're common or not...

I think the best course of action is to politely - and within the rules - request a proper review of a target to make sure the right score is entered. I'm sure if Vogel didn't want to win because a mike he earned wasn't scored, I'm sure he also wouldn't want to win because an Alpha his competitor earned was mistakenly scored a mike...

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I think the best course of action is to politely - and within the rules

I don't really agree.

Sometimes you need to be a little bit impolite. If certain people read my last post, they will think I am an a_-hole. I don't think that means I am wrong. Sometimes things happen at matches where I don't think it is out of line to be impolite and call it the way you see it.

As far as within the rules... right and wrong don't always line up with the rules. In the Vogel example I listed above, at the time he went to the stats shack I don't think that he had any basis in the rules to get his score fixed. I think they did the right thing fixing it (legal or not).

I recall an incident this year where a day or two after a match a score was altered changing the placement of a couple people (and determining a class winner). Matt Darling lost out on a trophy when this happened. What took place was not within the rules... but that doesn't make it wrong. Matt nutted up and said he wouldn't want a trophy he didn't earn anyways. I am not sure everyone would have stepped up like that in his place.

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In 2011 I ROed the Open/L10/Revolver portion of the nationals and was lucky and unlucky to witness a few things. Here are some examples…..

I never believed in “Doubles” until I actually witnessed it happen at the nationals. I was the Score Keeper RO on a stand and shoot stage and watched a revolver shooter put two bullets into the exact same hole in the target. I literally watched both bullets come out of the gun and go into the target in the same place. Since the targets were about 10 Yards away I thought that they would be really close but would show two defined grease ring marks. When we got up to the target I was absolutely shocked to see that there was one single hole and a single perfect circle grease ring. The grease ring also fit totally within the circle when we carded it. The Timer RO wanted to give the shooter a miss, but I spoke up and said that I watched both rounds go through the same hole on the target. After a little bit of discussion the Timer RO gave him the hit he earned. The whole time the shooter, a top end GM shooter I might add, said nothing and acted totally cool with the situation. Fortunately for the shooter I was paying close attention to what was going on while he as shooting. If I had not actually watched both shots go into the same place on the target I would have called it a miss as well.

On the unlucky side I got to experience a top end GM ask for a hit on a target that was not there. I was the Timer RO and while he shot the stage I watched the missed shot hit the dirt just to the left of the target. I KNEW it was a miss, as I seen it happen real time. I am pretty sure the shooter also knew it was a miss as well. But he insisted that I card all of the hits (3 out of what should have been 4 hits) that were on the target looking for a Double. I asked him which one of the 3 hits was in question and looked like a double. Flabbergasted he just picks one at random, I check it, and obviously don’t find a second radius. Then he says “Aren’t you going to check the other hits???”. I gave him a look that pretty much said “C’MON BUDDY…..Really???” but I checked them anyway giving him the benefit of the doubt, even though I knew his missing hit was sitting in the dirt to the left of the target. Even after CLOSELY inspecting all three hits and not finding any evidence of strange grease rings or multi radiuses the shooter was still not satisfied and called for the CRO to double check it. The CRO comes over and goes through the whole process of checking the hits again and gives it the same call as I had, one miss. At this point the shooter just says “Ok” with a little smile and walks off. He was obviously begging for one of us to manufacture a hit that wasn’t there, wasting our time, and was totally fine with it. This unfortunate incident will forever tarnish the reputation of that shooter in my mind. It really makes me wonder how many RO’s would have buckled under that kind of pressure and just given him a free hit to get out of the awkward situation?

I am all for Ben’s stance on the subject. We are ultimately responsible for our behavior on and off the range. When I have a screw up on a stage I own it. It was my screw up and I earned it. I have had to point out errors to RO’s or the Stats team both for and against my stage performances. Everyone has screwed up something in one way or another. Own up to the error, get it fixed, then move on. All we can do is be alert to our duties at the time and give it our best. Hopefully when you represent yourself in this manner others will follow suit. But in the end it will always be up to the individual to choose whether to own the situation as is, man up and fix something, or con your way into a fictional result. We are all challenged with these choices which define our integrity every day of our lives.

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I've seen & called a double. I would definately have a target pulled, if I believed in my shot placement. It's within the rules & it's legit.

I too have seen fellow shooters patch a target on a poor run, to help out a team mate. These people & known (& watched) & I don't mind letting others in the squad & match know either. Peer pressure does wonders some times.

I agree, that some shooters do not take responsibility for their poor shooting. "Own it, or don't shoot it".

Good on ya Ben, it's a sticky topic.

Edited by NOSAJ19
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I think the best course of action is to politely - and within the rules

I don't really agree.

Sometimes you need to be a little bit impolite. If certain people read my last post, they will think I am an a_-hole. I don't think that means I am wrong. Sometimes things happen at matches where I don't think it is out of line to be impolite and call it the way you see it.

As far as within the rules... right and wrong don't always line up with the rules. In the Vogel example I listed above, at the time he went to the stats shack I don't think that he had any basis in the rules to get his score fixed. I think they did the right thing fixing it (legal or not).

I recall an incident this year where a day or two after a match a score was altered changing the placement of a couple people (and determining a class winner). Matt Darling lost out on a trophy when this happened. What took place was not within the rules... but that doesn't make it wrong. Matt nutted up and said he wouldn't want a trophy he didn't earn anyways. I am not sure everyone would have stepped up like that in his place.

I agree with what you've written here. If you've shot a miss or committed a procedural, the highest ethic is to say - rules be damned - give me the score I earned. However, in circumstances where you believe you have legitimately shot a double, I don't thing it's unreasonable or unethical to politely and within the rules ask for the target to be reviewed. Not everyone who asks an RO to take a closer look at a hit is trying to manufacture a hit that isn't there.

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I think the best course of action is to politely - and within the rules

I don't really agree.

Sometimes you need to be a little bit impolite. If certain people read my last post, they will think I am an a_-hole. I don't think that means I am wrong. Sometimes things happen at matches where I don't think it is out of line to be impolite and call it the way you see it.

As far as within the rules... right and wrong don't always line up with the rules. In the Vogel example I listed above, at the time he went to the stats shack I don't think that he had any basis in the rules to get his score fixed. I think they did the right thing fixing it (legal or not).

I recall an incident this year where a day or two after a match a score was altered changing the placement of a couple people (and determining a class winner). Matt Darling lost out on a trophy when this happened. What took place was not within the rules... but that doesn't make it wrong. Matt nutted up and said he wouldn't want a trophy he didn't earn anyways. I am not sure everyone would have stepped up like that in his place.

I agree with what you've written here. If you've shot a miss or committed a procedural, the highest ethic is to say - rules be damned - give me the score I earned. However, in circumstances where you believe you have legitimately shot a double, I don't thing it's unreasonable or unethical to politely and within the rules ask for the target to be reviewed. Not everyone who asks an RO to take a closer look at a hit is trying to manufacture a hit that isn't there.

My bad! I should have explained WHY I will not argue a double.

I don’t think that it is unethical to argue for a double (assuming you firmly believe that the hit is there), I think that it is poor judgment to do so.

The 15 points at stake on the stage are not as important as having a reputation for fair dealing and clean competition. A few other guys have posted it here and it is true. People have LONG memories in this sport. Even if the hit is actually there and you are fighting the good fight, many observers will not see it that way. They will talk, and they probably will not discuss it in your presence.

If you are at an area match then you are quite likely dealing with one of the same ROs you will see at Nationals. You will not score points with these guys having a target pulled, regardless of the outcome.

The bottom line is this: In the incredibly unlikely circumstance that you shoot a perfect or near perfect double, you are screwed. Either you get scored a miss or you come off looking like a complete asshat and still get scored a miss. The best thing to do is to smile and walk away. Trust me on this.

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On the unlucky side I got to experience a top end GM ask for a hit on a target that was not there. I was the Timer RO and while he shot the stage I watched the missed shot hit the dirt just to the left of the target. I KNEW it was a miss, as I seen it happen real time. I am pretty sure the shooter also knew it was a miss as well. But he insisted that I card all of the hits (3 out of what should have been 4 hits) that were on the target looking for a Double. I asked him which one of the 3 hits was in question and looked like a double. Flabbergasted he just picks one at random, I check it, and obviously don’t find a second radius. Then he says “Aren’t you going to check the other hits???”. I gave him a look that pretty much said “C’MON BUDDY…..Really???” but I checked them anyway giving him the benefit of the doubt, even though I knew his missing hit was sitting in the dirt to the left of the target. Even after CLOSELY inspecting all three hits and not finding any evidence of strange grease rings or multi radiuses the shooter was still not satisfied and called for the CRO to double check it. The CRO comes over and goes through the whole process of checking the hits again and gives it the same call as I had, one miss. At this point the shooter just says “Ok” with a little smile and walks off. He was obviously begging for one of us to manufacture a hit that wasn’t there, wasting our time, and was totally fine with it. This unfortunate incident will forever tarnish the reputation of that shooter in my mind. It really makes me wonder how many RO’s would have buckled under that kind of pressure and just given him a free hit to get out of the awkward situation?

I have experienced this feeling as well. At nationals you may see some very famous people to some really shitty things. People aren’t always who you think they are.

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I think the best course of action is to politely - and within the rules

I don't really agree.

Sometimes you need to be a little bit impolite. If certain people read my last post, they will think I am an a_-hole. I don't think that means I am wrong. Sometimes things happen at matches where I don't think it is out of line to be impolite and call it the way you see it.

As far as within the rules... right and wrong don't always line up with the rules. In the Vogel example I listed above, at the time he went to the stats shack I don't think that he had any basis in the rules to get his score fixed. I think they did the right thing fixing it (legal or not).

I recall an incident this year where a day or two after a match a score was altered changing the placement of a couple people (and determining a class winner). Matt Darling lost out on a trophy when this happened. What took place was not within the rules... but that doesn't make it wrong. Matt nutted up and said he wouldn't want a trophy he didn't earn anyways. I am not sure everyone would have stepped up like that in his place.

I agree with what you've written here. If you've shot a miss or committed a procedural, the highest ethic is to say - rules be damned - give me the score I earned. However, in circumstances where you believe you have legitimately shot a double, I don't thing it's unreasonable or unethical to politely and within the rules ask for the target to be reviewed. Not everyone who asks an RO to take a closer look at a hit is trying to manufacture a hit that isn't there.

My bad! I should have explained WHY I will not argue a double.

I don’t think that it is unethical to argue for a double (assuming you firmly believe that the hit is there), I think that it is poor judgment to do so.

The 15 points at stake on the stage are not as important as having a reputation for fair dealing and clean competition. A few other guys have posted it here and it is true. People have LONG memories in this sport. Even if the hit is actually there and you are fighting the good fight, many observers will not see it that way. They will talk, and they probably will not discuss it in your presence.

If you are at an area match then you are quite likely dealing with one of the same ROs you will see at Nationals. You will not score points with these guys having a target pulled, regardless of the outcome.

The bottom line is this: In the incredibly unlikely circumstance that you shoot a perfect or near perfect double, you are screwed. Either you get scored a miss or you come off looking like a complete asshat and still get scored a miss. The best thing to do is to smile and walk away. Trust me on this.

Ah. Interesting insight. Thanks for sharing!

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I have experienced this feeling as well. At nationals you may see some very famous people to some really shitty things. People aren't always who you think they are.

This is sad but true. Competition brings out the best and the worst in people at times.

If i believe something to be true or be there, i will argue it forever.

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Ben, you are Brutal. Honest in your opinion but Brutal with a Capital B.

There are literally hundreds of authors quaking in their shoes, praying for warm sunny weather in Wisconsin so that Ben Stoeger may put down their book and pick up his shooter! :roflol:

Edited by old506
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perfect doubles exist...seen it before...I believe I have done it before and was called a miss. Nothing I can do about it. The RO can only call what he sees. As an RO, we have to watch the shooter, stage and timer. Sometimes they make mistakes. Obvious ones I would fight (calling a miss on a D hit breaking the perferations of the line)...etc. When shooting out of province, out of country I try and make sure I am on my best behaviour to represent my country; I am in this sport to make and keep friends, but you also don't want to be seen as a push over. :sight:

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Brutally honest indeed. He's the Simon Cowell / Chef Gordon Ramsey of shooting. If I were in the market for a book to take my shooting to the next level I'd want an honest review and not people blowing smoke up my arse.

Yup, absolutely. Thanks very much for your honesty, Ben, both about the book(s) and about the upper tier of our sport in general.

You are fast becoming a personal hero of mine for your all-around integrity, honesty, work ethic, and success. Keep on keeping on, Ben.

:cheers:

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Brutally honest indeed. He's the Simon Cowell / Chef Gordon Ramsey of shooting. If I were in the market for a book to take my shooting to the next level I'd want an honest review and not people blowing smoke up my arse.

Yup, absolutely. Thanks very much for your honesty, Ben, both about the book(s) and about the upper tier of our sport in general.

You are fast becoming a personal hero of mine for your all-around integrity, honesty, work ethic, and success. Keep on keeping on, Ben.

:cheers:

Hero huh? All I really have is a big mouth. =)

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I have been doing a lot of reflecting lately on what shooting means to me and why I even do it in the first place.

I remember starting shooting thinking it was just plain FUN. I enjoyed the process of learning new techniques, practicing them, and then testing them in competition. I could never practice enough or find enough new books to read or afford enough ammo to practice. It was just this constant never ending source of fascination for me.

Now, years into this sport, I don’t really think anything has changed. I still like the same things I did before. I am constantly loading ammo or doing dry fire and just constantly looking to do things better.

I am thinking back to the best moment I had all of last year. It was when I was basically living on the shooting range, shooting 1000 rounds a day. I had a Hopkins there and we were both just trying to figure it out. We drank energy drinks and built stages and then figured out how to shoot them. It wasn’t a grueling training session. To me it was more like a vacation.

The best moments of shooting for me around about winning a useless trophy that is going to sit in a cardboard box in my closet. I just love trying to move my skill level forward. It is even better when you can train with someone else that wants the same. I think it is all about pure shooting. I just want to shoot because I like to shoot.

Now obviously I don’t really want to get involved in the sponsorship rat race that is so prevalent these days. I don’t want to do the self promotion that comes along with that. I just like to shoot!

The best part about shooting is that all you need is a beat up old Beretta and a Dillon Square Deal. If you have those two things you can get out there and have a good time.

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On the unlucky side I got to experience a top end GM ask for a hit on a target that was not there. I was the Timer RO and while he shot the stage I watched the missed shot hit the dirt just to the left of the target. I KNEW it was a miss, as I seen it happen real time. I am pretty sure the shooter also knew it was a miss as well. But he insisted that I card all of the hits (3 out of what should have been 4 hits) that were on the target looking for a Double. I asked him which one of the 3 hits was in question and looked like a double. Flabbergasted he just picks one at random, I check it, and obviously don’t find a second radius. Then he says “Aren’t you going to check the other hits???”. I gave him a look that pretty much said “C’MON BUDDY…..Really???” but I checked them anyway giving him the benefit of the doubt, even though I knew his missing hit was sitting in the dirt to the left of the target. Even after CLOSELY inspecting all three hits and not finding any evidence of strange grease rings or multi radiuses the shooter was still not satisfied and called for the CRO to double check it. The CRO comes over and goes through the whole process of checking the hits again and gives it the same call as I had, one miss. At this point the shooter just says “Ok” with a little smile and walks off. He was obviously begging for one of us to manufacture a hit that wasn’t there, wasting our time, and was totally fine with it. This unfortunate incident will forever tarnish the reputation of that shooter in my mind. It really makes me wonder how many RO’s would have buckled under that kind of pressure and just given him a free hit to get out of the awkward situation?

I have experienced this feeling as well. At nationals you may see some very famous people to some really shitty things. People aren’t always who you think they are.

It doesn't even have to be Nationals, or Area shoots. I have heard about it at last years section match, people just showing their ass.

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I was basically living on the shooting range, shooting 1000 rounds a day. I had a Hopkins there and we were both just trying to figure it out. We drank energy drinks and built stages and then figured out how to shoot them. It wasn’t a grueling training session. To me it was more like a vacation.

Now that's the life! Being in school sucks, can't do anything like that :(

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I am hearing rumors that the Rudy Project Team has a “blacklist” of some sort. The list is of people that make trouble or make fun of the team or something like that.

I can’t really believe that rumor… it is just too silly.

On the off chance that it is true, I would very much love to be added to the list. Actually, I want to be team captain of the “blacklist” squad. That sounds pretty cool.

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I have been doing a lot of reflecting lately on what shooting means to me and why I even do it in the first place.

I remember starting shooting thinking it was just plain FUN. I enjoyed the process of learning new techniques, practicing them, and then testing them in competition. I could never practice enough or find enough new books to read or afford enough ammo to practice. It was just this constant never ending source of fascination for me.

Now, years into this sport, I don't really think anything has changed. I still like the same things I did before. I am constantly loading ammo or doing dry fire and just constantly looking to do things better.

I am thinking back to the best moment I had all of last year. It was when I was basically living on the shooting range, shooting 1000 rounds a day. I had a Hopkins there and we were both just trying to figure it out. We drank energy drinks and built stages and then figured out how to shoot them. It wasn't a grueling training session. To me it was more like a vacation.

The best moments of shooting for me around about winning a useless trophy that is going to sit in a cardboard box in my closet. I just love trying to move my skill level forward. It is even better when you can train with someone else that wants the same. I think it is all about pure shooting. I just want to shoot because I like to shoot.

Now obviously I don't really want to get involved in the sponsorship rat race that is so prevalent these days. I don't want to do the self promotion that comes along with that. I just like to shoot!

The best part about shooting is that all you need is a beat up old Beretta and a Dillon Square Deal. If you have those two things you can get out there and have a good time.

Outspoken or not... you are true to what you love and are a pure shooter- awesome. I'm with your on the practice sessions... sometimes I feel like they are the best days because of all the cool things you can try to improve on. It's a great post for everyone to reflect upon for sure. Great post!

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I checked the weather in Eau Claire, WI (wherever that is, must be near the North Pole?)

Today: 18 Degrees (Feels like 7) Chance of shooting 0%

Tomorrow: 28 Degrees Snow Showers. Chance of Shooting frickin 0%

Extended Forecast. Warming to 37 Degrees and Snowing, Generaly miserable with slight thoughts of shooting. Chances of shooting <1%.

Edited by old506
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