11-87 Death Jam

[StealthyBlagga]

In a local 3-gun match yesterday, my Remington 11-87 shotgun, which normally runs like a Swiss watch, suffered the mother of all malfunctions. I was able to replicate this "death jam" and photograph it:

After an eternity, and with the RO's vocabulary of British expletives considerably expanded, I managed to clear the malf and complete the stage. Today I stripped the gun down to find out what went wrong. The photos below clearly show the problem, which was caused by a bur on the side of the shell lifter:

I suspect the failure was precipitated by the Walmart Federal shotshells I was using up (someone gave them to me - normally I use Estate shotshells), but probably this has been a problem in the making for a while. I finished the stage with Estate ammo, and the gun ran OK. I suspect the Federal load was more prone to this malfunction because the base of the rim is noticably less rounded. The photo below shows the rim of a Federal shotshell (right) compared to my usual Estate shotshell (left):

For the moment I'm going to clean up the damaged area with a file, and I'll order a replacement shell lifter. I'm not looking forward to refitting the EZ Loader, but a new shell lifter is probably a surer repair than TIG welding the damaged area of the existing lifter. If removing the bur with a file restores the gun to acceptable reliability, I may even install a completely new lifter and EZ Loader, and keep the repaired lifter/EZ Loader as a pre-assembled spare part. Does anyone know what exactly this hump on the side of the shell lifter actually does ? I'd guess it just guides the shells into the chamber and away from the ejection port - right ?

If anyone here has ever encountered this kind of jam before, chime in. I suggest you guys who shoot Remington autoloaders periodically check this area of your guns to be sure you don't suffer the same fate.

Edited May 26, 2008 by StealthyBlagga

[GentlemanJim]

What took the bite out of the carrier??

The bump can get battered by the bolt face...but on the rear side...not the front

Jim

[StealthyBlagga]

What took the bite out of the carrier??

Your guess is as good as mine. This gun has had thousands of round of Estate ammo through it without a problem, but then I use up one box of Federal ammo and this happens. Although the photo above is not that clear, the rear of the rim of the Federal shotshell is noticably squarer/sharper, and could have caused the damage, but after only 25 shells ??? When the new shell lifter arrives, I want to compare its shape and angle with the old one to see if the hump somehow got bent in and made it more vulnerable to being beaten on by the shells as they fed out of the mag tube. Most likely the damage has been there for a while (I only remove the trigger group for cleaning twice a year), and the sharp rim of this Federal ammo just precipitated the problem to crisis level. At least it was only a local match... the SMM3G was not that long ago.

[Religious Shooter]

I usually radius that part of the lifter.

I got this pointer from Cooley while taking his class.

Personally I'd just take a Dremel to it and reshape it and lower it a bit.

[StealthyBlagga]

I usually radius that part of the lifter.

I got this pointer from Cooley while taking his class.

Personally I'd just take a Dremel to it and reshape it and lower it a bit.

DONE - 60 seconds with a swiss file, and it looks OK. I'll post my shooting results when I get around to test firing it.

[GentlemanJim]

The shells being fed out from the mag tube..should NOT hit the carrier

It may be bent inward..and taking hits from feeding shells

If you look at the bottom of the bolt ...you will see a small relief cut that runs over the bump.

If the lower edge of that cut is sharp..it can chew up the carrier...I radius the sharp edge...it reduces wear and beating on the carrier.

When ordering the new carrier...also order a new pin...the roll pin that comes with an EZloader sucks.

Jim

[StealthyBlagga]

When ordering the new carrier...also order a new pin...the roll pin that comes with an EZloader sucks.

Jim

You are preaching to the choir my friend. If you look closely at the 4th photo in my original post, you can just see that I put a piece of piano wire inside the roll pin to beef it up. Its a PITA to install this way, but I have not had a roll pin break since.

Edited May 27, 2008 by StealthyBlagga

[Chris Conley]

Been there done that. I would get the new lifter. I check mine everytime I clean it and have a spare just in case I'm at Nationals or some other big match and can change it out. You're right about one thing, what a PITA ass that job is to change it out.

Chris C.

Edited May 26, 2008 by Chris Conley

[releo 37]

I had the same thing happen to my 1100 last year and it ran kinda of hit and miss for a while then I tore it down and dressed up the lifter with a file and it helped for a little while. I replaced the lifter and the problems went away. This gun has had thousands of rounds through it before this problem finally came to a head and I think it's from all those rounds hitting the lifter with a extra power spring pushing them out of the tube.

[wsimpso1]

Funny this should show up now. A week ago, my normally flawless M1100 had a death jam with Federal ammo in a local match, costing me a bunch of targets and forcing me to shoot a Benelli. Same way too. Shell part way out of the mag, stuck on something. I had to remove the trigger group to clear it, and found a similar notch in the anti-fallout tab.

Yeah, that tab is on there to prevent shells from bouncing right out the ejection port instead of being thrust into the chamber.

Mine was somewhat bent inward as well as being notched. Since it is only there to prevent the new shell from ejecting, I bent it out a bit, dressed it with a file and then emery cloth. I have yet to test fire it, but it hand cycles fine. I guess that I will skip the Federal ammo from now on. Thanks for the heads up on the rims having a sharp corner.

Billski

[jobob]

I've had good luck with the Wally World federal, but not the Winchester. But I can see how that ammo may have reacted with your damaged carrier to cause your jam. How did that notch get in the carrier in the first place? It looks like it got hit with something very hard. It's hard to imagine that just running many rounds over it could cause that.

I believe that Estate is a sub-brand of Federal, btw. At least it's made in the same town.

My simpathies, wsimpso1, for having to lower yourself to shooting a Bennelli. We all need to make sacrifices at one time or another, though.

[wsimpso1]

I checked my remaining Federal shells, and the caps are sharp cornered just like the photos. And they attract a magnet! Steel!

Between the sharp corner and their being steel, I don't doubt that they could generate a notch over time. With the anti-fallout tab bent and reshaped, and the gun fed a diet of shells that don't have a sharp aft corner on the rims, I am hoping that it will resume its reliable ways.

That Benelli autoloader is light and it has to recoil to make it work. It kicks! Back to my nice soft recoiling M1100.

Billski

[jobob]

Yeah, I shot a friends Benelli last year. Nice gun. Very light and handles well, and kicks. I'll stick with my Remmys. Perhaps slightly less reliable, but I'll take that over being beat up at the end of a long match.

I still don't see how the shell rims could cause that notch. It's much softer steel than the carrier. At least it should be. I could be wrong, though. IIRC it seems like I was wrong once, but my memory is faulty, so I may be wrong on that!

[kurtm]

The Estates are "steel" also! I am suprized that the lifter isn't a hardened part, I have seen a few with this same type of damage, although none quite as bad as the one you pictured. You would think that Remington would take note. KURTM

[RePete]

The Estates are "steel" also! I am suprized that the lifter isn't a hardened part, I have seen a few with this same type of damage, although none quite as bad as the one you pictured. You would think that Remington would take note. KURTM

Remember that the part was designed around brass bases not steel or alloy.

[StealthyBlagga]

Well, the shell lifter is only a $25 part, and this one has functioned OK since I bought it used in 1996, so I can't blame Remington for making a faulty product. Lesson learned - I'll replace the lifter/EZ Loader. and keep the old assembly as a spare. I agree that this problem has probably been in the making for a long time, and it is easy to spot during cleaning when you know what you are looking for.

Edited May 27, 2008 by StealthyBlagga

[TRUBL]

Yes, smooth it out and run with it. Do not remove that "tab" completely as it helps guide the shell into the chamber when the lifter is up. And not come out the ejection port. And, yes....this IS a common problem for the 1100's/11-87's........so pointing it out will help people to know just WTF is going on with their malfunctioning Remmy!!! Probably a lot of guns sold becasue of this problem....and not seen.

By the way, Benelli's have that same feature and some people like to remove it so they can load into the tube on bolt that hasn't gone totally into battery......BIG MISTAKE. There is a better wayto skin that cat.

Edited May 27, 2008 by TRUBL