Grandmaster like custom pistol

[chris223]

Hello,

I am going to order a custom open pistol with the main spec of the STI grandmaster.

I would like to put some holes in the barrel for flat shooting.

How many holes do you advise me ? Which size ?

I was thinking 2 or 3......

Thank

[HSMITH]

If you trust the man enough to build you a custom pistol for a couple grand plus I would suggest you trust him to put the right number of holes in the appropriate sizes in it.

Me? I don't want any holes in the barrel that weren't there when I bought it. I have tried them and while they can flatten the gun out some it doesn't help anything for me. Give me a good quality dot track and I am good to go.

[Triple]

38 Sa: 4 holes 2 millimeters

9x19: 2 holes 3 millimeters

[larry cazes]

I agree with HSMITH. No holes for me. two years ago I had an open gun built with two popple holes. I couldn't get used to the blast and noise so I had it rebarreled without the holes and the effect of the holes turned out to be negligible. Proof enough for me.

[Carlos]

I agree with HSMITH. No holes for me. two years ago I had an open gun built with two popple holes. I couldn't get used to the blast and noise so I had it rebarreled without the holes and the effect of the holes turned out to be negligible. Proof enough for me.

Another one in agreement.

But first - welcome 223! Just curious - are you shooting under USPSA rules? Or IPSC rules?

Both set of Open division rules allow all the holes you want.

The subject of "holes", aka hybrid-holes, aka "popple-holes" (especially when just drilled in the barrel) have been discussed many many times here. I think its safe to say that the advantage they have is this: personal preference.

In other words, they are not "required" for you to win or achieve a good score.

Something else to consider is: you will usually need more powder to meet Major power factor.

Personally, I would not drill any holes. Rather, if you are convinced you want holes, then have the smith install a Schueman ribbed barrel with ports in it. Wil Schuemann puts a taper to those holes or "ports" and I'd suspect he is using 17 degrees of taper - plus the length of the nozzle,er, I mean "port" is far longer than just a drilled hole - so its far more effective, at least in theory.

In any event, welcome. Please post a pic of the new gun when it arrives. Thanks,

D.

[Glk21C]

I've heard from a prominent custom gun builder in our sport that he'll put holes in any barrel if a customer really wants it but the effect it has is really just a lot more noise. Open guns are loud enough already....

[G-ManBart]

Hi Chris,

It sounds like you're not currently shooting an Open gun, which isn't a problem, but have you had the chance to shoot one before? Have you picked a gunsmith yet? My current Open gun is a Bedell and when I spoke to him about popple holes he said they made almost no difference. He said he built a lot of guns with them for a while and then stopped after comparison testing side by side. He'll add them if someone really wants them, but he said he couldn't see the advantage to them and they made the guns louder, dirtier and use more powder. My gun is a shorty in 38SC and the dot lift is very reasonable, doesn't leave the scope window and is consistent. As much as I love my Bedell a lucky turn of events has me having an Open gun being built by Derek at Millenium Custom and he had pretty similar comments about popple holes...he doesn't think they make enough difference to bother. Hybrid comps/ports are another matter....they will make the gun shoot flater, but they're much bigger and now you're getting into a gun that's not really the same style as the Grandmaster.

The best bet is to pick a gunsmith you trust, or at least you like the way his work looks and let him build a gun the way he knows will work reliably and give you a consistent dot track. When I talked with Derek he said he's built guns that had zero dot lift at all....it just sorta wiggled when the round went off. He said he couldn't shoot it well, couldn't call his shots with it and nobody else he let try it could do any better with it. I've heard other folks talking about the same thing, but don't recall what gunsmith it was.

If you're new to Open and can't try out a bunch of different style guns, tell the smith that and let them help you sort through the options. Done wrong Open can be incredibly frustrating and done right well....they call it the Dark Side for a reason

Edited May 15, 2008 by G-ManBart

[Jaxshooter]

The Scheuman barrel will make a difference, the popple holes don't in my opinion. I have guns with both and another open gun with neither. I can only tell the difference with the SV with the Scheuman barrel.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Jaxshooter

[Will Abrahams]

+1 to what most have have said here....no holes for me.

[shooterbenedetto]

Been there done that!! NO HOLES FOR ME!! it didnt help and it was just a waste of more powder to make major loads.

[brospizza]

I was going trough the same situation a few years ago and i decided to go with a schuemann barrel with holes (38 super 3 hybrid holes).

now after that i needed a back-up gun so my gunsmith decided to try something. he built the second gun identical to the first with the exception of the barrel of the back-up

we got a schuemann barrel with the rib but without the holes.

so i loaded ammo for the each one trying to keep the power factor the same for each gun.

so after all that i went out and shot the heck out of them.

the differences were not that substantial but i could tell.

the gun with the holes was a little flatter shooting, a little harsher in the feel of recoil, and of course louder but thats not an issue unless your behind the timer.

the gun without the holes felt a little softer but it had a little more muzzle flip. another thing i noticed is that you use a little less powder to reach the same velocity.

after i came to this conclusion we tried putting one hybrid hole in the rib, then two, then finally three the same as the first gun.

and thats what ive been shooting since.

now with all that said i believe most of this stuff is personal preference. its all about how proficient you are with what you have.

it's not going to make that much of a difference but practicing with it will.

after all that my answer is...

wait what was the question again?

[chris223]

It will be for IPSC rules.

Yes, it will be my first open.

The gunsmith recommend me to drill 2 holes (Trubor T-2 barrel) for flatter shooting.....for him, the STI comp is not very effective to reduce muzzle flip.

Honestly, i think i would prefer a barrel without hole...but it's only a subjective as i can't compare both

[Benjamin Arendt]

the STI comp is not very effective to reduce muzzle flip.

Well, I just want to say: I am shooting my Trubor for a while, equipped with the T2-Comp. Its a 9mm Major-Blaster.

Here is my Dark-Side-Blaster:

I am running this gun with 7,6grs Longshot behind a 125grs Round-Nose with Win Small Pistol Primers in used S&B Brass. Its making seriously Major

Long story short: It shoots pretty flat.. but, to be honest, I cannot compare it. Its my first Open Gun. The dot moves up and down and does not leave the lens.

DVC

Benjamin (Greetings from Germany)

Edited May 16, 2008 by Benjamin Arendt

[XRe]

Holes in the barrel, regardless of how they're drilled, or if they're a hybrid type "coned" hole or just a straight hole in the barrel, will all provide some effect on the way the gun appears to move under recoil. In the end, it all boils down to physics - there will be some effect... but I can confirm it through my own experience.

Now... the thing is, its not generally the "night and day" effect that people want to think it is. A gun that flips will not magically "not move" once you add holes. Its a subtle thing. Much like cooking, where, regardless of how you spice the dish, you can't turn chicken into beef...

What holes will mainly do is change the feel of the recoil impulse, and the way you perceive the motion of the dot under recoil. Most of the flip and the resulting visually detected recoil (in the movement of the dot) is actually a result of the slide banging to a stop at the end of its travel (if you don't believe that, check out some of shred's high speed video of his race gun....). What we're primarily altering is the bit that occurs before the slide really starts to travel - and in my experience, that shows up mostly as how the gun feels in the hand, and how the dot begins to lift. Certainly, the ports and comp contribute some to the overall "flippiness" (well, subtract from it, actually), but quite a bit of the flip is actually controlled by the firing pin stop cut, the mainspring weight, the recoil spring weight, weight of the slide, etc, etc.... Also, realize that their effectiveness (or lack therefore) depends quite about on the load choice - bullet weight and powder. At these lower, modern power factors, ports are not as effective as they once were, so...

Personally, I like having some holes. I perceive the gun as staying flatter, and that I get a little more dwell at the start of the dot lift, which makes it easier for me to call shots (I'm talking about parts of milliseconds, here, of course). I don't care about loud (I double plug anyway). And, I've shot enough stuff for long enough that I can reliably tell the difference in the feel of different things. As a first open gun, its going to be hard to tell (you'll still be reacting to the concussion, and that little bright thingy dancing around in the scope for a long time). Let the 'smith build what he feels is best for your first one. Shot the snot out of it. After you've put, say, 10-15K rounds on the thing, then shoot a couple of other peoples' guns in different configurations, and then see what you think about holes, etc (keeping in mind the other variables I mentioned above).

[stockton]

+1 on what Dave has said.

After shooting it for about 3 months, I added two holes and then finally ended up with 3 holes in mine. Schuemann Hybri-Comp, Bedell Ti Comp in 9 major. The three holes are .125 into the bore and taper out to about .1875 at the top of the rib with a 12 degree taper. I do like the dot better now, but it for sure made the gun loader. I also double plug and don't have an issue with it....Sorry ROs!

7.7grs of Sil with MG 124 JHPs loaded to 1.175 OAL makes right at 1,350 FPS for 167.4 PF in 75 degree weather. I have tested up to 8.3grs without horrible pressure issues. Three holes only dropped me about 15-20 fps = .1 grain increase.

Bottom line...like what Dave said, shoot it awhile and add holes later or like HSMITH said, trust your smith.

[uscbigdawg]

If I didn't love how my gun was setup (and similar, like Dave's) I'd go with a conventional 5" slide, no ports and a 3-4 port comp. I shot Mike Voigt's gun a number of years ago and with good loads and sprung correctly, it was so smooth that you would have sworn you were shooting minor.

Goes back to what HSMITH and XRe are both eluding to. Ultimately it comes down to a process rather than a definitive answer. My gun is extremely load but tracks straight as an arrow. Others can't shoot it 'cause it's 'too fast' or 'too loud'. I love it (and it's why I have two).

Try everything you can and go from there.

Rich