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titegroup trouble


Austin Hemphill

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I recently switched from 320 to TG, just to try something different.  I bought a  1# can and developed a load off of it, and found it to be very consistant and clean.  However, I recently traded for an 8# can and have had the opposite results.  I am getting a 50+ fps spread and it is much dirtier.  I wonder if the powder could have been contaminated with something.  Has anyone ever had similar troubles?  Here in Nevada, the humidity is low, and I always dump the unused powder back into a can when I am finished to prevent any humity related problems.  However, I am questioning the treatment of the powder before I received it.  I do not remember seeing any kind of seal over the mouth of the can, and I wonder if storing in high tempratures can cause any of these problems.  Any help with this will be appreciated.

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Are you SURE that what you got was Titegroup and not something else?  That would be my first guess.

I have gone through several 1# cans of Titegroup and don't see much (any?) variation between the lots over the chrono.

It is possible that the powder got damp at one point and then was dried out.  Does it still "look" like Titegroup?

Heat will degrade powder as well although it takes awhile whereas moisture is just about instantaneous.

I guess if it was mine I would just suck up the loss and get some known good powder.  Inconsistency sucks.

Cheers!

Kevin

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Well...let me tell you that if your can was unsealed, I'd be damn concerned about the contents.  Powder "stealing" is not unheard of.  The trick here locally is for the dealers to peel back the seal just a crack and pour off and ounce or two off all the cans they sell.  I wonder if somebody decided to swap you with some surplus powder that was supposedly Titegroup's equivalent.  

I now refuse to cough up money before I inspect the seal on the powder.  If I buy via mail order, I only do business with people I trust.  I also make it clear to them that they damned well better send powder with a seal that is intact.  The powder manufacturers really need to come up with a better security seal.  The crap that's going on is totally ridiculous.

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I remember being told somethign similar when I purchased my first bit of titegroup a year or so ago.  Wanted to save money so I inquired about a larger amount and price breaks, etc.  According to the individual...a person I do trust, there have been reported issues with titegroup in those larger amounts.

The issues you point out are what he referred to as well, decrease in accuracy and power, increased dirt...so I go in the small amounts and have no issues.

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I have not tried to get titegroup in 8# cans. I  have been buying 1# cans and have been very happy with it so far. I have been considering buying 4# cans. The price is not that much diff., so I may stick to 1# cans.

Mike

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I think I found the problem.  The toolhead has a crack in it and I think it is allowing the powder die to move.  I switched it out with another I had, but I managed to shoot my skyscreen before I could chrono the new loads.  So, I will have to wait to get a new set to test.

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I just picked up an 8# can to experiment with.  I also want to switch from N320 because it can be such a pain to find.  Besides, I have an FFL and my distributor carries all Hodgdon powders so I can get it really cheap.  Anyway, can someone recommend a load for Titegroup and a Star 180 grain bullet?  Also, how does TG "feel" compared to N320?  Thanks.

Jack

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Here is some more grist for the mill.  This data was taken on Monday.

All loads are 4.5gr of Titegroup, CCI 500 primer, Winchester brass, loaded to 1.140 OAL.  Temp of ammo and everything else when chrono'd (even the shooter) was 30 F (okay, the shooter was near 98.6 F but it felt colder).  No wind.  Overcast day. McDonald's Bacon/Egg/Cheese Bagel and OJ for breakfast.  2 cups coffee.

Fired from Para 16-40.  Each is an average of 10 rounds over the chrono.  Fired 10 rounds into the berm first then stuck with a routine so barrel was "approximately" the same temp for all chrono runs.

Berry 180gr plated Flat Point: 938 FPS, 169 PF

LaserCast 180gr Lead Truncated Cone: 956 FPS, 172 PF

LaserCast 170gr LSWC: 1034 FPS, 176 PF

Going to play with longer OAL but this was what I already had loaded for my other .40 which really didn't like anything longer than 1.150.

Why do I always end up playing with loads when it is cold?  Then I just have to rework the darn things when it gets warm.  Oh well.  

Cheers!

Kevin

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I really like Titegroup, always bought it in the 1# cans from a reputable dealer, but it is very dirty in my opinion.  I only use a drop or two of oil on the slide rails and I get powder "caked" all over the inside of my gun and, although it hasn't become a reliability problem, I'm considering switching to another powder.  4.9grns w/180 grain Montana Gold @ 1.190 OAL =170pf at Sea level, that's the load I use for Area and Nationals.  

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Thanks for the feedback, fellas.  Thanks Gunruner and JoelHilgy.  I am using the Star 180 CEB loaded to 1.200", too.  So, I won't have to change anything but the powder measure.  I am shooting an STI Edge, so hopefully my results will be similar.  Thanks again.

Jack

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Hey Guys, For TiteGroup try using Winchester Super Lite (WSL) loading data out of the Winchester loading manuals.  I think you will be surprised that they are the same.  This is identical to the Ramshot Shilouette powder being the same as Winchester Action Pistol (WAP).    Repackaging is a wonderful thing.  Regards, Doug

(Edited by DougC at 12:43 pm on Jan. 22, 2003)

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I was watching some match videos last night and noticed something odd.  When watching my grip, I noticed that the gun moves less with titegroup then  with N320.  And the lighter barrel in my gun lets it move less than the heavier one.  I don't know if it was just different days, since the videos covered about 6 months of shooting, but it was interesting.

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Flex.........

When I was shooting 45 in CDP, I liked 5.2 ish with Berry's 200 RS @ 1.190 for about 168 PF.

In 40 I'm loading 4.5 ish with lead (ugh) 180's @ 1.160, bumping it up maybe .1 or .2 for Star 180 FMJ-FP's......both make about 168-170 PF.

In my experience, given the same power factor, WST shoots softer than N320 and Titegroup in that order.

Titegroup is awesome powder (I call it the 21st century Bullseye) but too snappy. N320 is not as snappy but emits lots of distracting sparks from the muzzle and does nothing WST and Titegroup can't given it's expense and availability.

The listed loads are on the tight side of minimum PF's, I load with confidence because I found WST to be very consistant and stable with no surprises.

TR

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TiteGroup is slightly faster than WSL, but quite a bit slower than WST. The reason that the ramshot is the same or similar to WAP is that (like TG and WSL) they are made by St Marks Powder Co (Primex).

All ball powders made in the US come from this plant in I think Florida.

In my experience you will find that Hodgdon powders will vary less than just about anyone else in burn rate from batch to batch.

Winchester discontinued WSL, WAP, WMR, 540 and 571 all in the same year (2000) so you will have to buy the nearest equivalents.

I use TG for 38Super and 40 and get excellent accuracy out of both. I have found that WST is a little fast for 40 if you have to load to 1.15", but will work better if you can load at 1.225 - 1.250".

WST is very good for 38special.

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