BDH Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I load several pistol, a few rifle, and some shotgun loads. Because of that, I have several powders and the associated primers on hand. Since I tend to buy in person to avoid the Hazmat and shipping, I also tend to buy in bulk. I know what the NFPA code says, and while I am not going to say that I exceed their recommendations (rules?), I am a little concerned. What is a reasonable amount of components to keep on hand, and how do you safely store them in a residence? Also, lets say you have an electrical short at the opposite end of the house from your loading/storage area that results in a fire. Unfortunately, the house burns down, and the insurance inspectors arrive to determine the case...... if you had larger quantities that allowed by the NFPA rules, does anyone have any idea how the insurance company will play this (just to clarify, the reloading components were consumed in a fire caused by an electrical short, NOT something like I burned my house down by doing something stupid with reloading components). Anyway, I would love to know how everyone safely stores their supplies, and also complies with fire codes, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 A good friend of mine has over 100 pounds of powder, tens of thousands of bullets, 55-gallon drums full of brass, and thousands and thousands of primers. All are stored in his basement. The good thing is if a gang ever raids his house, he can probably take out a few square blocks with a little gasoline and some matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Jake, Okay, have you been looking in my basement? Well, I'm glad that I am not the only one, but still a little concerned that if something did happen my friendly Insurance Company would void my Homeowner's policy. THAT would be bad! Sorry, to hear about your 650 primer explosion. I also use a 650, and fortunately, have only had one primer go off when seating. I'll admit that it scared the sh*t out of me (especially with the primer flame shooting up toward the powder measure)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Interesting subject since I'm sure most of us store supplies in or very near our houses. Personally I don't store the amounts that you've mentioned because there is a reloading supply business close. The most I may have on hand at any one time would be a couple pounds of powder and 3 to 5 thousand primers. I keep them all in military ammo cans with good seals. I know we have at least one insurance guru posting here maybe he will chime in and give some industry inside info,,, Big Dave??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 BDH - Unless you are being grossly(sp?) negilgent in the storage of your powder and primers, the chances of you getting cancelled are quite slim. If you have a HO 5 policy (the most common type) there isn't an exclusion for ignorance or anything of the sort. Fire & Lightning and Explosion are covered perils in most (I say most because there always seems to be an exception) Homeowners policies. Basically, you have to do something really bad (and typically illegal) to get cancelled. Now, what can happen is that a HO policy can get non-renewed (most HO policies are on a automatic 12 month renewal) at the end of the policy period if the insurance company determines that because you choose to store 100 lbs of powder, etc. that your house may be an unacceptable risk. What is more likely is that you would be subject to a premium increase (risk goes up, premium goes up). Now, I must state that I am not (1) an insurance agent or (2) a underwriter. But, I have a better working knowledge of the HO policies, what they can and can't do, than either of them. I'd say that if you are within the ATF and NFPA guidelines, that you're safe. If one were to think about it, what really is the difference between gunpowder and say gasoline, keroseen(sp?) or paint. Many people park their cars indoors with anywhere from 10 to 30 gallons of gasoline in them everyday. Paint is a common household item, and most paint is flammable. Just use common sense when storing it. If I were you, I'd store my bullets seperate from my powder and seperate from my primers. Even in different areas of the house if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 My .o2 is that gasoline is much more likely to actually cause a fire or explosion than powder, that being said most powder/reloading manuals describe nfpa regs. I am not an insurance agent, but it makes sense that even if there was a fire NOT directly related to powder/primers the insurance co. could not retroactively cancell your policy if you follow recommended storage. Although you may need to switch Insurance after the disaster. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 First, thanks for the replies! Following is a real world experience in dealing with an insurance claim at my last house...... Nicely finished basement, probably 90% finished. Dug in good, non-porous Indiana clay. Since I knew we were going finish this basement, I had the builder do just about everything possible to make sure it stayed dry (extra drain tile, both around the perimeter, and under the actual slab; extra gravel; sealed and insulated walls; big sump pump, and battery back-up for the sump pump; and probably a dozen other things I can't think of right now). On top of all this, I bought a rider for my Homeowners policy that covered me in the event of water in the basement. Okay, we end up with a big time Spring storm (I think it rained 6 or 7 inches in a couple of hours). There was so much rain, that the sump pump was running non-stop and could not keep up (it turned out that the main storm drains in the sub-division could not keep up, which meant that even though my sump pump was pumping water outside, it would go right back down to the foundation, and come back in). We ended up outside in this storm jury-rigging some drain tile to at least get the water away from my house so it could drain accross the yard, as opposed to going straight back down to my foundation. Because we caught this early, and worked our tails off to keep the water out of the house, all we really ended up losing was carpet and pad, and a little bit of wall/woodwork damage. Not too bad. Anyway, I call the Insurance company who gets someone right out. He does the normal walk through taking pictures, asking questions, etc., while I have a crew ripping out all my damaged carpet. Anyway, he finishes his inspection, we sit down and he tells me "one of the hardest parts of my job, is telling people that they are not covered......... " He goes on to explain that because the water underneath the slab pushed up through the joints between the slab and the walls, and also through any floor cracks in the slab, that my rider did not cover this type of water in the basement!! Of course, I asked him what exactly it he thought it covered? His response was that I would have been covered if the water had overflowed the sump pit, but since it did not, I was not covered. Great!! That means that if we had done nothing, and not tried to minimize the water damage to the house, the sump pump would have eventionally overflowed, and I would have been covered. Of course, there probably would have been several thousand dollars additional damage, but that did not matter to the Insurance company. I take that experience as one that shows that you can pay your insurance, and even pay for a rider, and then they find a way to screw you in the end. So, as for reloading component storage, I remain concerned (even though everything is stored properly, and separately). Keep in mind that I think the number of primers you are allowed to store under NFPA code is only 10K (or maybe it's 25K). For those of you that are still with me....... a call to an attorney friend, and her review of my rider allowed me to respond appropriately to my insurance agent. He immediately called back and said that he 'was trying to pull some strings". That call was later followed up with another call from him saying that "he had managed to convince the company to cover my claim. Oh, and also, 'my comments' about talking with an attorney had 'nothing' to do with this decision". I thanked him for his efforts, and once we had everything squared away, I cancelled my policy with them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 I wonder if the NRA, or some other likely source (is there a national reloading...something , something?), has addressed this issue? It must come up...I have wondered the same as well. (BTW, please don't anyone mention this in front of the female shooter of the house...no need getting her worried about it. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Quote: from 3quartertime on 9:37 am on Jan. 27, 2003 Interesting subject since I'm sure most of us store supplies in or very near our houses. Personally I don't store the amounts that you've mentioned because there is a reloading supply business close. The most I may have on hand at any one time would be a couple pounds of powder and 3 to 5 thousand primers. I keep them all in military ammo cans with good seals. I know we have at least one insurance guru posting here maybe he will chime in and give some industry inside info,,, Big Dave??? 3QT, You don't really store the powder in sealed, metal containers, do you? In the event of a house fire, you've created a bomb that could hurl shrapnek everywhere. Powder, to the best of my knowledge, should be stored in its original plastic containers because then it will just burn ------ and there's a ton of room for any gases to vent to. Primers I don't have a clue on ---- anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Flex, I think there is the NRMA (National Reloading Manufacturers Assoc), but I believe they quote the NFPA codes. I have to believe there is just too much liability for anyone to go on record outside the NFPA codes. No worries on me saying anything to your better half. The same goes for you..... if you and Jen show up on the 8th, don't tell my wife what was in all those boxes she helped carry in! In fact, now that I think of it, I left 20,000 Zero 180's in the garage in hopes that she would get the hint and carry those in also. So far no luck...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 20k...I'll back the truck up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Reader's Digest version: You can't have more than 50 lbs of powder in a residence. Quantities of more than 20lbs of powder have to be stored in a powder magazine. Primers are to be similarly stored, and it apparently is verboten to store more than 10,000 primers in a residence. The word on primer storage according to SAAMI: http://www.saami.org/publications.html#primers Powder Storage According to Hodgdon: http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/storage.php and... http://www.hodgdon.com/data/general/nfpa.php#top For those who can't wait: 13-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in residences where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness. 13-3.8 Not more than 50 lb (22.7 kg) of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1 lb (0.45 kg) maximum capacity, shall be displayed in commercial establishments. 13-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants shall be stored as follows: (1) Quantities exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), but not exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness. (2) Quantities exceeding 100 lb (45.4 kg), but not exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having walls of at least 1 in (25.4 mm) thickness. Not more than 400 lb (181 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in any one cabinet, and cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour. (3) Quantities exceeding 800 lb (363 kg), but not exceeding 5,000 lb (2268 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in a building, provided the following requirements are met: (a). The warehouse or storage room shall not be accessible to unauthorized personnel. (. Smokeless propellant shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having wood walls at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness and having shelves with no more than 3 ft. (0.92 m) of separation between shelves. ©. No more than 400 lb. (181 kg) shall be stored in any one cabinet.. (d). Cabinets shall be located against the walls of the storage room or warehouse with at least 40 ft (12.2 m) between cabinets. (e). The separation between cabinets shall be permitted to be reduced to 20 ft (6.1 m) where barricades twice the height of the cabinets are attached to the wall, midway between each cabinet. The barricades shall extend at least 10 ft. (3 m) outward, shall be firmly attached to the wall, and shall be constructed of 1/4 in. (6.4 mm) boiler plate, 2 in. (51 mm) thick wood, brick, or concrete block. (f). Smokeless propellant shall be separated from materials classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids, and oxidizing materials by a distance of 25 ft. (7.63 m) or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour. (g). The building shall be protected by an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems. (4) Smokeless propellants not stored in accordance with 13.3.9 (1), (2), and (3) shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed and located in accordance with Chapter 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 EricW, And that is the dilemma........... Now, any idea what the issues are 'IF' someone 'HAPPENED' to store more than those quantities in a residence? Especially, if there was a claim following a fire, and the fire inspector determined that more than the 'allowed' (recommended) amount of components were stored in the residence? Of course, I would NEVER violate any law (I didn't speed on the way home tonight ), but these are recommendations, not laws aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Flex, hey you had your chance . Did you get your order together yet? Did you beat $52/1000?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Quote: from BDH on 3:43 pm on Jan. 27, 2003 ...these are recommendations, not laws aren't they? Well, you have to check your local fire codes. I'm guessing that these "recommendations" are the *minimum* standard in most locales. I know that in the more leftist municipalities in Oregon the rules are *much* stricter, to the point where most stores can't have any meaningful quantity of anything on hand. I'm sure that the rules for residences are even less gracious. The big dilemma is that if you ask the fire department for the codes, you run the risk of self-incrimination. In the end, there is no good answer, and I guess we all just have to take our chances. I doubt the political situation will ever improve. (Edited by EricW at 4:35 pm on Jan. 27, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 I hear you..... which is one reason why I never 'said' that I had any more than NFPA recommends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffro Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 What about home storage of factory loaded ammo? Anybody have idea (insurance-wise) as to rules, limitations or restrictions? If so, what are they (generally)? Thanks in advance for any input. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Nik, yea I do store the powder in ammo cans. The subject came up when I thought of using the sealed cans in the beginning. I may have gotten some bogus info but the impression that I got was Mil spec ammo cans were designed to isolate the contents from extrernal conditions such as fire, impact, moisture. Now you've got me thinking again, I've removed the top of the ammo can just to be safe. I'll try and find the research info I had before and share it with all. I use an ammo can for my primers too. The moisture proofing seems to warrant a sealed container. Is this another bomb in waiting? Thanks for any ideas to set me straight!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Hmmm...."in a residence".... How is "a residence" defined? Is a detached workshop/garage/storage building considered "a residence"? I do not reside there. Don't get mail there but it does have a separate street address. I have been pondering just how one would build a powder magazine so if something should go wrong the damage would be limited. With explosives, chemicals, etc I have seen many commercial storage units where one wall was sacrificial and this wall faced on to a sloped area on the outside. The theory is that any explosion would take the path of least resistance, knock down the sacrificial wall (these are often just fiberglass panels) and then the sloped ground outside would just direct the blast up and away from everything and everyone. Thoughts? Cheers! Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 I use an old non-functional refrigerator for storing primers and gunpowder. The primers go in the freezer compartment and the powder goes in the 'fridge compartment. A couple of rechargeable silica gel cans keep the humidity under control. The insulation keeps the temperature pretty stable even on the hottest days in the summer. In the event of an internal fire the magnetic door gasket will allow the door to pop open venting the pressure reducing the possibility/severity of an explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipster Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Nolan excellent idea, I have an old and non-functional refer that will be come my powder storage container. Currently the top shelf of my wife’s linen closet has been the storage area for the past 24 years. This will take care of two problems, my wife can have her shelf back and I wont have to pull that refer out of the basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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