"...B class is the easiest to get into and the hardest to

[schmitz]

I state: I'm competitive in B.

I believe I can break down a stage..I practise the movements according Sauls recommendations..I do everything possible to perform well... but one thing lacks...and that is time.

There's that tiny company that needs my attention to earn money...money to live...money to support my shooting hobby.

It's easy to chit-chat about progressing in to whatever class...time to practise is not on my side!

Thus, when in B or C or D you're called a sandbagger? Is this a lesser shooter???

[Ron Ankeny]

Thus, when in B or C or D you're called a sandbagger? Is this a lesser shooter???

The letters printed on a card don't mean a thing on game day. Either you beat the other guy or you don't.

and then when you get to A, then what?

Well, if you keep improving you will end up in Master class. Edited April 18, 2008 by Ron Ankeny

[Flexmoney]

I see mental blocks in many shooters. Often it is a lacking in fundamentals. Some don't know...won't believe...or just can't bring themselves to execute what they think they know (but probably still don't really believe).

[Flexmoney]

drift moved to it's own thread:

Moving up in class at major matches, found here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63983

[el pres]

secret amount of GM's

[hopalong]

I don't know much, but when I was shooting LTD way back when I was in C class for about a year and a half. When I made "B" class I was there for a total of 3 months then "Welcome to the DEEP END of the Pool"

So that put me in "B" class automaticly in all other divisions I was classified in..................until the "M" came around and moved them all up again.

"B" class will pretty much gobble up most with some talent to shoot and with just enough time to get profficient but not "GOOD" (There is a difference)

Hop

[Jman]

B is where fun will take you.

A is where work and fun will take you.

M is where determination, work and fun takes you.

GM is where persistence, determination, work and fun takes you.

Confidence using the skills they work so hard for are our Champions.

Jim M

...least that's what I think

[XRe]

Thanks Dave...this gives me lots to think about. You have really sliced and sorted and indexed this into little boxes that are easy to digest. You should store these gems away for you book.

Book????!!!!!????

Heh... we'll see what happens

[XRe]

To get to GM, I think that you need to add significant physical abilities that not everyone can achieve.

Nah, not so much.... You can make GM just by shooting solid classifiers (which means you need really solid basics). But, in order to be competitive, I agree - you have to be able to move... but even big, out of shape guys can move, so...

[kimel]

I was well on my way out of "B" when life got in the way and I couldn't practice regularly and even had to start missing matches. The skills cooled off a bit but leveled out at the bottom of "B" as evidenced by my making B in L10, a division I had not shot in for four years, a couple weeks ago after not having fired a single shot in over 90 days.

Thus, I figure my skill "base" is at low-B level. Those are the "core fundamentals" that we fall back to after we forget all the fancy crap. Nice to know the foundation is firm.

And so now the long climb up from the basement of B begins, again.

[Duane Thomas]

I already know the answer-no talent and not enough practice (dry or live).

P.S. Talent has nothing to do with it.

Well, Jake beat me to saying it. I truly believe that thinking they don't have "talent" is a trap, or maybe an excuse, that many people use to justify their lack of improvement. Now, let's define what we mean by "talent." Back when I was a firearms instructor I noticed that, every few months, I'd get a student who just got it, right off the bat, and was able, with absolutely no prior experience, to begin shooting at a much higher level than most students. I noticed that these people invariably had certain traits in common.

Sex (male or female) had nothing to do with it, in my experience, because these people were equally split between men and women. What I saw was:

(1) They tended to be people who, whether they were aware of it or not - and most of them weren't - had innately good hand/eye coordination.

(2) They weren't afraid of the gun. They just approached everything very matter-of-factly, without the apprehension, the fear-block that so many new shooters have.

(3) Perhaps most importantly, they had a superior ability to absorb and synthesize new information. I'd tell them, "Stand like this, hold the gun like this, focus on the sights, manipulate the trigger like this," and they'd just....do it.

So, to me, a person who has those attributes meets my definition of being a "talented" shooter. And they do exist. Where I have a problem is with people who think that attaining, or possessing, a high level of skill is absolutely dependent on having some mystical attribute called "talent" that very few people have. No. What's most important is not talent, but the willingness to work hard for what you want. I have never been a particularly athletically talented person. I have fairly decent hand/eye coordination (a student once paid me a very nice compliment and told me, "You have the steadiest hands I've ever seen") but I was the slim, small guy in grade school who always got chosen last in softball. (Which considering I had, like, a .999 batting average I always thought was incredibly lame. Of course, they were all singles; I could hit the ball and put it right where I wanted it - usually between first and second base, but I had no power.) On the other hand, I'm a pretty darn good shooter. Why? Because I want to be. Because I've worked hard for it. That's the key. Do you want it? Yes? Then how hard are you willing to work for it?

One thing that's struck me over the years is the pedestal on which many people want to put the top shooters. Every time we read, or type, or say something referring to Robbie Leatham as being a "superman" or Jerry Miculek being "an android designed to fire a revolver" or whatnot, we reinforce the idea that the skills these folks possess require some sort of superhuman attributes to which the average human being could never aspire. That's simply not true. In some cases they might be folks with great reflexes, and above average hand/eye coordination, but in truth they can't do anything that we couldn't do, if we were willing to work as hard as they have. At the highest levels, really the skill level becomes almost unimportant, because at the top everyone has the same skill level, pretty much, and it becomes a mental game dependent on who can hold it together the best, the longest, throughout the course of the match. But I digress - at the moment I'm talking about the development of pure shooting skill.

When shooters at a match have asked me, "How did you get that good?" my answer has usually been, "Lots of practice." I've noticed that, invariably, people don't like that answer. They get this annoyed look on their face like I'm holding out on them - even though I'm telling them the God's honest truth. I think people want to believe there are perfect, golden people on Earth for whom this is all easy. The "talented" ones. It gives them someone to admire, and also makes them feel better about not possessing that skill level themselves - because they're not "talented".

Having said all that, I will also say I do believe there is a bit of false modesty involved in some of the people who'll tell you it's all about practice. The subtext being, "You could do it if you were willing to work as hard as I have." In some cases that is not, in fact, true. Let's take as an example doing a sub-one second draw. I'm here to tell you from experience, it's not that hard to do. Anyone with normal class reflexes, who has basically clean technique and practices enough, can do a sub-one-second draw. Period. At the same time, it's also true there are X number of people in the world who would NEVER be able to do a sub-second draw. I don't care how hard they practice, how essentially clean their technique becomes, the bottom line is their reflexes aren't fast enough, they're just innately slow people. So for some people the willingness to practice hard is not the most important thing. But in that sense we're talking about extreme cases, not the norm.

[Matt Griffin]

I'm only A Lim, but for me the progression was:

C-class: shoot pretty fast, miss a lot, plan poorly, move poorly

B-class: Shoot faster, miss a bit less, plan better, move poorly

A-class: Shoot same speed, miss a LOT less, plan better, move much better

I think I'm scraping M now, so here's my guess as to what I would add:

M-Class: Shoot a bit faster, quit missing entirely, shoot very few Ds, plan well, move well, shave time off of fundamentals. Start figuring in HF on stage planning. Learn where to go top speed vs. Type 3+. A bunch of other stuff I don't know yet.

Rereading that, I'm pretty sure I just said something stupid.

H.

[baa]

I'm only A Lim, but for me the progression was:

C-class: shoot pretty fast, miss a lot, plan poorly, move poorly

B-class: Shoot faster, miss a bit less, plan better, move poorly

A-class: Shoot same speed, miss a LOT less, plan better, move much better

I think I'm scraping M now, so here's my guess as to what I would add:

M-Class: Shoot a bit faster, quit missing entirely, shoot very few Ds, plan well, move well, shave time off of fundamentals. Start figuring in HF on stage planning. Learn where to go top speed vs. Type 3+. A bunch of other stuff I don't know yet.

Rereading that, I'm pretty sure I just said something stupid.

H.

As another A class shooter, your described progression sounds about right.

Getting out of B is tough. The typical skill level of a B shooter tends to produce highly inconsistent classifier results. At least it did for me. Every 80% classifier was matched by a 58% shot the next weekend. It took a lot of work to get to the next level for me. It was well worth it though. A-class has been a lot more fun.

[el pres]

B is also a place where you start to realize some success and begin to push too hard. Now that you've entered the

slightly higher ranks, you start to "know" what to do and feel that if you got here then the next step is right

around the corner. At this point you start to push too hard throwing classifiers scores all over the place, one 80%,

followed by a 52%. It seems to be that way for me...

[JThompson]

B is also a place where you start to realize some success and begin to push too hard. Now that you've entered the

slightly higher ranks, you start to "know" what to do and feel that if you got here then the next step is right

around the corner. At this point you start to push too hard throwing classifiers scores all over the place, one 80%,

followed by a 52%. It seems to be that way for me...

got the shirt

[flameo]

no one is stuck in "B" as the others have said you have to practice and, believe it or not you can try to hard to get out (just relax shoot to the best ability and "A" will come ) most of the time you don't when it happened

[steel1212]

You guys are nuts... I WANT BACK IN! I gots more learnin ta do and its gonna hurt for a while!

[demp35744]

Thanks guys, I needed to read this.

[David Sinko]

My first real attempt at classifying in USPSA was in Production where I shot somewhere around 73% at my first classifier match. I had planned on making A quickly but I don't practice much and I don't particularly enjoy shooting an auto. I have shot up to 85% on classifiers but then a 65% will count too and then drag me down. For me it's definitely a matter of consistency and bouncing around between auto and revolver doesn't help either. I'd rather not shoot an auto but that's where the competition is. Nobody around here shoots Revolver (they all hide in IDPA) and since I don't really venture out I haven't even had a chance to shoot against any really good revolver shooters. Curiously enough, I have always been a better revolver shooter but this is not reflected by the classifier scores. Obviously I need to decide what I want to do and then stick with it.

Dave Sinko

[Coach]

The last classifier I shot in 2007 put me at 60% in Limited. In April of 2008 after two classifier matches back to back I fear I will not have the chance to shoot a major match in B Class. Unless my math is out of whack ( a real possibility usually) I will be A class for Area 8. I spent nearly two years in C class L 10 before making B. So my experience is just the opposite of this title. Things seem to be clicking at the momment.

[K45]

I am trying to avoid opening another thread just for this question and figured someone could give me a quick answer...

Is there any disadvantage to shooting a sanctioned bigger match as an unclassified shooter?

Is there any advantage to shooting them as unclassified?

Also, how often do sanctioned big matches have classifier stages in them?

Thanks!

[AikiDale]

I am trying to avoid opening another thread just for this question and figured someone could give me a quick answer...

Is there any disadvantage to shooting a sanctioned bigger match as an unclassified shooter?

Is there any advantage to shooting them as unclassified?

Also, how often do sanctioned big matches have classifier stages in them?

Thanks!

The short answer is no. Some of us feel you either win the match or you don't. If you shoot unclassified you are shooting to win. Once you have a classification, you will have a rough idea how you shoot compared to the rest of USPSA shooters. This can be a valuable guide and give you a starting point for short term goals. The trap of the classification system is to short change oneself into accepting mediocrity. Without a classification you can't win 3rd C class plaques for example, but you can get bumped to GM if you win an Area match.

[K45]

you can get bumped to GM if you win an Area match.

Wouldn't THAT be nice!

OK, that helps. Thanks!

[boo radley]

In most major USPSA matches, awards (trophies or plaques and sometimes cash and prizes) are presented to winners of divisions and classes and categories. Depending on how many shooters are in a particular class, 2nd and 3rd place shooters might also be awarded...

As an example: SC awards

If you do not hold a current classification in a division -- ie, "U" -- you will only be eligible for the division champion. Some shooters, such as Aikidale, are only interested in winning and competing for HOA, regardless.

On the other hand, if you do hold a current classification in the division you're shooting, you will still be competing for division champion, but also against a subset of your relative 'peers' as determined by the USPSA classification system.

At large matches the number of shooters in your class might be quite large, and with varying talent levels that might well exceed the classification. I would never trivialize anyone's accomplishment in winning an award at a major match -- 3rd C, or or otherwise -- nor the classification system as a motivational tool.

[Chills1994]

Since 2009 is winding down and there is a chance to start fresh in a new shooting season in 2010, in about 4 or 5 months.... I figured it was time to re-visit this old thread of mine.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. It gives me some things to ruminate on for the next few months. Maybe there's enough motivation there to crack open the two Steve Andersen books and one Saul book I have... during the "down months".