HEAVY lead in 40

[HSMITH]

I bought some 220 grain lead flat points from Jim Stinar and finally got around to working up a load and shooting them. SOFT is an understatement, several people commented about my 'minor' loads and 22 recoil. A couple said 'that gun doesn't move' LOL. Load is 3.2 grains of Clays, 1.235", WSR primers, 172.5 PF from my 6" Limited gun. Accuracy is good, haven't done any real accuracy testing but I did shoot a match with them yesterday and the bullet holes were all exactly where they were called. 25 yard upper A's/B's are no problem with the bullet landing exactly where the sight lifted from, plenty good for me. No pressure, a little leading but that is pretty typical with Clays, consistent over the chrono with an ES of 19 too. SLAMS the steel down, harder than it should for the power factor, it goes DOWN!! Feels like a good 45 load, but even softer. The price is excellent, I might switch over to these exclusively for club matches. He also casts a 175 and a 140, I have shot a few of the 175's but haven't gotten to the 140's yet, I will get to the 140's soon though for a steel load.

Who else is playing with lead in 40? Any good loads?

[Hekler40]

I bought some 220 grain lead flat points from Jim Stinar and finally got around to working up a load and shooting them. SOFT is an understatement, several people commented about my 'minor' loads and 22 recoil. A couple said 'that gun doesn't move' LOL. Load is 3.2 grains of Clays, 1.235", WSR primers, 172.5 PF from my 6" Limited gun. Accuracy is good, haven't done any real accuracy testing but I did shoot a match with them yesterday and the bullet holes were all exactly where they were called. 25 yard upper A's/B's are no problem with the bullet landing exactly where the sight lifted from, plenty good for me. No pressure, a little leading but that is pretty typical with Clays, consistent over the chrono with an ES of 19 too. SLAMS the steel down, harder than it should for the power factor, it goes DOWN!! Feels like a good 45 load, but even softer. The price is excellent, I might switch over to these exclusively for club matches. He also casts a 175 and a 140, I have shot a few of the 175's but haven't gotten to the 140's yet, I will get to the 140's soon though for a steel load.

Who else is playing with lead in 40? Any good loads?

Howard

I load 180g lead from Mastercast in Pa. The load i am working on is 4.1 grains of Titegroup, 1.130. WSP primers and range Brass. I expent it to be about 169 PF out of my 5" Caspian. YMMV

I am gong to Chrono this load on Wednesday and Will report what I find.

My previous load is 4.3 Grains , 1.130, WSP Primers was 174pf out of my Caspian.

Anton

[ofcrfs242]

I have also been doing some T&E with Jims 220 grain 40 bullets and love them so far. The drop in perceived recoil from a 175 is unbelievable. I am loading 3.0 grains of Titegroup and have been very impressed. A little leading with Titegroup but nothing major. And because I shoot exclusively outdoors and almost never have a calm day the smoke has not bothered me.

ETA: 3.0 of Titegroup gets me to a very consistant 170PF out of my Glock 22. Have not yet chronoed it out of my 35.

Robert

Edited April 14, 2008 by ofcrfs242

[L9X25]

Several years ago they hit the scene and were very popular for a while. I believe that we were trying for 180pf at that time and several folks experienced KB's and their popularity diminished. I think the new power factor, together with loading long, has probably solved that situation to some extent. I still have a box full of that ammo from back inthe day.

[EricW]

Howard,

IIRC, I do seem to recall a couple of forum detonations from 200 gr (I don't remember 220's) and Clays. I *think* the issue was that Clays has a non-linear pressure curve where a small change results and a large difference in chamber pressure.

That said, you may be onto something. The 220 gr bullet probably limits setback and loading on a 650 or 1050 with a powder check gives some insurance there.

E

[HSMITH]

Eric, The U-die is the key to not blowing up your 40 cal blaster with Clays. That and sound loading practices....

I have run these 220 grain bullets as high as 185 power factor using Clays without ANY pressure showing at all, I wouldn't have any problems at all going faster for pin loads or something like that. Clays WILL get nasty, but careful chrono mapping shows it easily. It doesn't spike any worse than TiteGroup or Universal does either, they just spike a little further out in speed. All 3 will blow the top right off a gun, none is any safer than the other in regard to setback or double charges.

Powder check dies, I have two that I trust, and they are in the upper portion of the front of my head. IMO, the Dillon powder check is a, how do I say it nicely, well it is not at all needed or desired on my machines. I have a light that lets me see in every case, and I look. I know people that use and trust the Dillon powder check, but I can't do it. I got rid of mine a long time ago.

The length needs to be long on these loads using Clays, I would recommend that you stay 1.190" or longer. Chrono mapping is definitely recommended, starting low and working up. When the velocity increase per charge weight increase flattens out you are approaching the point where strange things will begin to happen like the ES opening up quickly. If you keep going you will see the velocity flatten out completely and possibly drop, at that point you are knocking on the door for pressure spikes that could be serious. Keep going from there and you will see wild velocity swings, pressure signs Ray Charles could find, etc. With good magazines the long OAL isn't a problem and doesn't limit capacity.

I would also recommend that the user check to make sure his barrel is throated long enough to keep these off the rifling at least .020", the bullets are HARD, REALLY hard.

Power Pistol, Unique, and Super Field would also be good powders to test with these bullets, a bit more safety margin and even Unique will be pretty clean with a 220 in 40 cal.

I am very impressed with the bullets. They shoot really nicely and are extremely soft shooting.

[BigDave]

Do some searching, but there should be a good bit of disucssion on at least 200 gr heads in 40. Phil Strader was shooting those or 220s with N330.

[Intel6]

Howard,

I cast my own .40 bullets and make a 150 FP, a 183 FP and a 213 FP. I have been using WST for all three and while the 150's are great for steel and the 183's are what I normally shoot in .40, I usually save the 213's for my 10mm's. I have been playing with the 213's in the .40 and so far they have been shooting great in both the 5" & 6" top ends. My loads have been exceptionally clean and I can run 300+ without any problems with it getting dirty.

Neal in AZ

[HSMITH]

Dave, between my buddy and I we have almost every powder there is. 330 and 340 are on the list to test for sure, as are about 10 other powders.

Neal, these were pretty clean too, very clean for lead loads actually. I have about 350 on the gun now and it runs as slick as can be. I had about a hundred on it, wiped out the top end very quickly, cleaned the chamber, added some oil and ran the 350 on it now. I have cast literally tons of bullets myself, but I just don't have time anymore, or the desire. The only thing I would change on these bullets if I was casting them myself is a soft lube instead of hard, as I am sure you know it works a ton better but the average consumer freaks out if the bullets are a little sticky and the groove isn't perfectly filled on every bullet. The average consumer doesn't have any idea what they give up to have aesthetically pleasing bullets.

[ebg3]

I've been shooting 205gr Valiant bullets in my .40 for years. These bullets have 2 small greese grooves instead of one big one. They don't seem to smoke as bad as a single deep grooved bullet. Because of the 2 grooves, I can only load out to 1.16". This has never been a problem. I started shooting these when 340 was the hot powder and have since shot them with 330, 320, 310, Clays, Red Dot and Amer. Select. The slower powders don't lead as much as the super fast ones. I've been using 330 with good results. Clays and 310 felt great but leaded my barrel too much. For practice, a slower burning powder at a slightly reduced rate can feel similar to my normal match load and lead very little. If you can deal with the smoke and the filth, lead is the way to go for practice and local matches.

[HSMITH]

I shot an indoor match with them Saturday night, three poppers in a line, big one little one big one and you had to get them down before you could move from the position. I drove the first one down with 3 shots, missed the little one once, hit the back one, shot the back one again and had to go back for the little one, by then the smoke was thick enough to be a problem, I was poking at a shadow of the little popper. Two other times the smoke was an issue, 4 targets from one position etc. The indoor range has ventilation but it isn't very good.

I didn't have any problems at the outdoor match Sunday, and there wasn't much breeze. The big thing I think is that the sun wasn't at an angle to make the smoke an issue. It has been my experience that lighting has a LOT to do with how much the smoke will affect your vision.

[z40acp]

Try the Winchester Super Target, very good with lead. Softer than most. I used to shoot 200 gr. lead w/ 3.9 gr. WST, 1.205 OAL. Price is right too.

[J-Ho]

Damn, you guys got me thinkin'. Now I'm going to have to try some heavy 40's. I used to goof around with heavy 45's. I shot some IDPA SSP with 300 grain bullets. That's 416.33 feet per sec. to make the power factor. It was like shooting in slow motion. Maybe I'll toy around with the 40's now. Neat idea, I never even considered heavy 40's till now.

[HSMITH]

Jim Stinar runs them with WST in his Para, I THINK he said 3.2 at 1.200" for 170 PF.

[herky]

I have shot 200 gr lead and jacketed in 40 since before the power factor changed, lots of folks went to 180s when that happened. Changed from lead to jacketed to get away from the smoke and dirty gun. My load was 5.5 gr of WAP for lead and is 6.0 gr of WAP for jacketed, loaded out to 1.190. I have stayed with these loads because the gun feels familiar, a very subjective opinion, but I don't like to change much. Others who have tried the 200 or 220 felt the gun was sluggish and like the 180s, to each his own.

[waxman]

Howard, Is Solo 1000 on your list? I have started using it now in my Moly 40's, and it almost eliminates the smoke, and has a recoil pulse very similiar, maybe a little faster then VV N320. I would recomend it. Never tried any Bullets heavier then 180 Grn though.

[HSMITH]

I don't have any Solo 1000 but I think my buddy does, if he doesn't I will buy some and test it. If the smoke is reduced the temps are down, and that will help a lot with leading in the throat. Thanks guys!!

[Throwin Lead]

I developed major loads for the 220 gn lead bullet using WST & Solo 1000. WOW! What a soft shooter! This is like shooting a flat Production load that makes major! I plan on shooting both Production & L10 this season with the same gun.

Since I rarely have shot L10 & major I wanted a load that I could manage in strong hand - weak hand shooting without the muzzle flip - well I think I have found it.

Both powders produced almost identical results with S1000 being a tad bit snappier. Smoke was very low but I'd give a slight advantage to WST in that criteria. Accuracy was good at 15 yds off of a rest - nice tight groups. for both powders

Mixed 1x brass, WSP primer, OAL 1.135 for both powders. M&P 40 - 4.25 barrel Average weight of 10, 220 gn bullets is 220.9 - this value was used for the PF calculation.

Solo 1000:

3.5 gn

High vel - 787.31

Low vel - 744.46

ES - 38.98

Avg - 764.83

SD - 10.7

PF - 168.95

WST

3.8 gn

H - 787.31

L - 740.77

ES - 46.54

AVG - 751.47

ES - 46.54

SD - 13.55

PF - 166.00

YMMV - As always start low and work up.

Almost forgot - no signs of lead fouling.

[pskys2]

Have you had any problems with WST and Reverse Temperature/Velocity loss? In .45's I liked WST but as the Temps started climbing the Velocities started dropping. Very consistently and by quite a bit.

Maybe the .40's smaller capacity won't be affected as much. Would be good to know.

[Throwin Lead]

Have you had any problems with WST and Reverse Temperature/Velocity loss? In .45's I liked WST but as the Temps started climbing the Velocities started dropping. Very consistently and by quite a bit.

Maybe the .40's smaller capacity won't be affected as much. Would be good to know.

Yes I have. At the Western PA Sectional last fall I noticed that my production load increased by about 3 to 5 FPS. IIRC I clocked in at 138 PF with a load that ran 133 to 135 in the summer. The temps were chilly - about 40 or 50 degrees.

I worked the chrono stage at that match and talked to a few single stack shooters that used WST who commented that their loads were a bit faster too.

I would think that if using WST in the summer you would have to bring out the chrono a few times to get a feel for your loads - especially if attending a major match.

As I stated in an earlier post SOLO 1000 does a good job too with lead providing almost the same results across the chrono. From what I read on this forum regarding S1000 there are no known temp issues. Not for sure - but I haven't found anything.

[waxman]

I guess I should mention 1 concearn i do have with Solo 1000. I bumped my load up to , I think 4.7, and I started to notice that the spent primer was starting to look odd. Not really flat, but it almost removed the firing pin dent, kinda weird. I am shooting about 4.2- 4,3 now, with a 1.175 oal. Does this sound like a pressure sign to you? The primer borders were almost perfect. I think a 4.1 was a 165 PF exactly, so I have left it at that, for club matches.

[pskys2]

Since I usually do my serious load work on nice winter/early spring days when the temps can be below freezing (did I say "Can", should say will). I gave WST up.

[bobobooie]

This thread got me to thinking. I already shoot and love Jim Stinar's 175 gr SWC over WST. It has been a very accurate and soft shooting load.

So I popped for some of the 220gr and after three tries have settled on the most awesome load I've tried yet. HSMITH said they were really soft shooting. Hah! It's stupid soft. I don't think the front sight moves, just sorta twitches a bit. 3.5 gr of WST at 1.2 OAL had an average of 775fps with an average deviation of 3.4 after 10 rounds were chronographed.

If I didn't feel it myself, I woulda sworn it was impossible. My math has it at 170PF out of my 5" STI SS (Sentinel). This will now be my local match load. Thank you HSMITH for getting me to consider this bullet and of course, Jim Stinar for a quality product.

Paul

[jasmap]

I've recently been running 200's through my new 6" and I love it. But now I'm interested in trying the 220's. Anyone ran the 220's over N320 and WSP primers (loaded long of course)?

[Dave C]

Been playing with 220 grainers for years.

Here is a list of powders I have tried:

Clays

VV 320 (love it, but pricey)

VV 350 (not sure why)

WSL (not manufactured anymore)

WST (least amount of smoke with cast bullets and shoots great)

AA#2 (smokey)

Ramshot Competition (shoots great, more temp sensitive than WST)

I have pretty much settled on WST and a 200 grain round nose cast bullet.