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38supPat

We are our own worst enemy

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I think it is a good learning process for someone to start out with basic equipment and from that base decide what type of upgrades they will want/need.

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go here to read this thread:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/369106521

Look for a post by a guy screennamed "Rickins". I guess it takes "cajones" to do what we do.

I guess some noobies are just intimidated by the pressure they put on themselves for their first match...trying to be safe and not completly embarassing themselves.

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go here to read this thread:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/320601935/m/369106521

Look for a post by a guy screennamed "Rickins". I guess it takes "cajones" to do what we do.

I guess some noobies are just intimidated by the pressure they put on themselves for their first match...trying to be safe and not completly embarassing themselves.

I checked out a link from one guys match on that thread. :surprise:

Scary vids there! One guy turned around to reholster his pistola after ulsc. I like my home range. Seems like a safe place where we follow the rules, and take care to keep it pointed downrange.

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^^^ Huh... I didn't notice the YouTube video link on my first read through of that thread. Had it been a USPSA match..."you're DQ'ed! Pack up and go home!"

That's where I think having new shooter classes/orientations would help.

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I recently started training IPSC shooting with some experienced shooters and must say that it was (and is) a nice experience. As a recreational shooter I already had a Glock 17L but no holster or anything. The advice I got was, “get a cheap holster that will fit the Glock and train a few times with us and see if you like it.” And guess what, I like it, so upgrades of my gear will follow but not because I have to but because I want to.

Very wise plan of action, Patrick.

You have some good mentors in your corner.

thx for the compliment Mark :cheers::rolleyes:

Edited by schmitz

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How discouraging do you think it is to a newbie investigating the sport to be told he has to spend thousands of dollars on a gun and gear "to save money?"

I agree and must admit that the same thing happened to me when I started shooting. I read advice, elsewhere, and talked to a couple guys from a local gun shop that shot "in competition" and bought a Springfield 1911. Now, don't get me wrong, it was a nice gun and I believe it would have been good for home defense and practical shooting, but as I didn't really understand that much about the sports I didn't really understand that it was not the gun I should be starting with. Once I realized that I needed a 9mm and that a Glock 19 was a much better overall choice for me for a "do it all" gun, I actually began to shoot a lot more because I had a much more versatile gun.

Since that time, I have listened to and tried to appreciate a lot of well meant advice, and I have made more than a few poor purchasing choices along the way. But most of those choices were the difference between what I could afford at the time and nothing at all. As a result, I have indeed spent more over the past 3 years than I would have if I had taken the advice I was given. But I'm also fairly certain that I would have given it all up as being too expensive.

The really difficult thing is trying to find a comfortable middle ground - something that a person can afford but that they will not outgrow in 6 months. It's a problem we face in our business every day - it's tough to explain to a customer that they really need to spend $30K when they are already stretching it to spend $10K. We KNOW from years of experience that they will never get what they want if they cut costs now and that over the next 3 years they will probably spend $40,000 to get what they want if they don't follow our recommendations now. But they can only justify $10K right now and that's the way it's got to be. We try and help them do the best they can within their constraints.

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I recently started training IPSC shooting with some experienced shooters and must say that it was (and is) a nice experience. As a recreational shooter I already had a Glock 17L but no holster or anything. The advice I got was, “get a cheap holster that will fit the Glock and train a few times with us and see if you like it.” And guess what, I like it, so upgrades of my gear will follow but not because I have to but because I want to.

Very wise plan of action, Patrick.

You have some good mentors in your corner.

thx for the compliment Mark :cheers::rolleyes:

Almost forgot, I also got the advice to start reading here, which I do a lot.

In the mean while I upgraded a bit, someone offered me an open SVI infinity .38 super with full gear and reloading equipment that I could not refuse B) . But buying it was still my call.

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Don't you forget about your Glock and the lessons that shooting Standard (Limited) teach!

That Open SV was an oppurtunity almost once in a lifetime for relative few bucks.

In my early years I shot IPSC in Open (hoser with many misses) then switched to my Limited SV...practised a lot and became a better shooter.

Now I'm shooting Open again (due to bad eyesight) but practising with the lessons learned in Limited...A-class and on my way :cheers:

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I'm not trying to bash anyone here or speak negatively about a sport I love. This is meant only as constructive criticism. I don't like seeing new shooters come out and get steered immediately toward high dollar equipment. Spending money on expensive gear is not necessarily going to equate to shooter satisfaction. The shooters that want to upgrade and that have the financial resources to do so probably will on their own. We can share our thoughts on equipment with them, let them shoot our stuff, etc., it's just the pressuring I sometimes hear that bothers me. I just groan when I hear a new shooter with a perfectly good stock gun that they really should consider getting into open or get an expensive limited rig because it will help their shooting and make the game more fun. That may or may not be true. I just think it's wrong to suggest that their equipment is inferior and they "need" a better blaster right off the bat. No, I'm not talking about some total POS gun that jams every other shot and has a 15# trigger. The trigger can be cleaned up on any good production gun and sights can be changed out easily. Limited division can be entered relatively inexpensively with some modifications to many common production type guns. To suggest that someone HAS to spend lots of money to enjoy the sport or become a better shooter is just silly, IMO.

I agree we should not push new shooters in any direction other than safety, rules of the game, and technique. New shooters should not even be considering winning or going fast until they have developed enough to be safe. Maybe, during that time they will gain a better grasp of where they fit into our sport.

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My club is probably small compared to alot of people. But the guys are great and will make every effort to advance someone's skills, even if it means you do better than them. We have a lot of new shooters, myself included that have stuck with it.

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Add me to it. I could have started with a higher pricered gun. I did start with a glock34. LOve the shooting sports.

Attitude WOW some of the Sr. shootewrs treat new shooters like crap.

To grow a thing it has to be treated right

Billy

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I am still relatively new to USPSA but I love it! I have really enjoyed shooting my XD40 and the gear that came with it along with a few extra mags and holsters. I have to say that there are some really great people in the Denver area. I received nothing but good advice and support as well insights into the strategies of shooting various stages. I have noticed that when you try to research something on the forums you get the more elitist type of advice. For example, I am considering shooting single stack and looking for some honest opinions from people that own 1911's that are priced around $1,000 or less. If you believe what you read on here the minimum cost of entry is at least a Les Bauer. I think I will pick up the new Para GI for less than $600 and keep practicing.

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This was my experience as a new USPSA shooter at East AL Gun Club that was mentioned earlier by Kgunz.

Two Sundays ago the Match Director and a couple of members spent time with several of us to introduce us to the sport. We spent time with safety and match rules. We also talked about different equipment and one of the guys mentioned this web site for getting good information. We then received instruction as we first dry-fired and then shot several 2-shot groups at static targets. They also let us shoot a couple of stages that were set up for us. These guys spent around 3 hrs. with us at no charge (FREE) and encouraged us to simply "shoot what we brung". It was great!

Yesterday, I showed up at the regular monthly match 2 hrs. late (church) and planned to just watch and paste targets. The Match Director saw me walk up, welcomed me, and told me to get my gear to shoot. He worked me in with his group and set it up with other groups for me to work in with them also. I was able to shoot my first match with my DW 1911, no magazine pouches (pulled from my waist), and 4 magazines. Each group knew that this was my first match. The RO's were really helpful and someone in each group would help me with the strategy of the COF. I found people to be very helpful and was really surprised that they would "work me in" to the different stages.

I can't wait to shoot at next month's match. It was a lot of fun and maybe I'll own a couple of magazine pouches by then.

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i'm happy to hear this! I'm about 4 months into IPSC and it was scary for me at first. One thing I noticed is that the C B and A shooters (read: cool kids), spent most of their time sucking up to the Ms and GMs, and us poor Us and Ds were on our own a lot. Sometimes we got advice but it really rattled me at first that i was hearing shooting advice during my run. That made me shoot worse. I guess the old dogs forgot what it's like for the scared pups.

It's getting better for me now, as i am making friends and learning more and more, but being approachable will do wonders for the newcomers to this sport.

I always remember what it's like to be the unclass, D,C shooter. For that reason I frequently make conversation with the new ones who show up just to break the ice and welcome them. I've found that frequently as a new shooter to a new area many M, GM, A class shooters are not so friendly to outsiders and sometimes can act like range nazis. I subsequently frequent those clubs who are friendlier and more shooter friendly. I know it's competition so you'll see some gamesmanship but I prefer to focus on the fun aspect and safety myself. There are for that matter quite a few GM/M/A shooters who go out of their way to be helpful so just be patient and worry about the safety issue and having fun.

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I suppose we're pretty lucky in that respect in the Houston, TX area. It seems more and more new shooters show up and most people seem to make an actual effort to start a conversation and welcome them. Also, it seems, new shooters can be sure to be squadded with helpful, "seasoned" people, who make their first few matches that much more comfortable and enjoyable.

If this sport is supposed to grow or at least not shrink, then EVERY CURRENT SHOOTER should keep an eye and ear open for people who may show interest and either make then feel at home during their first match or invite someone to shoot his/her first match.

I know I could do more, but I recently started inviting "target shooters" I see at the range and people I know to join me for a steel or IPSC match. Over the last three months, three people agreed to go and loved it. Hopefully, I can "lure" more people into the sport. Hey, it beats collecting stamps, right?

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Best would be if they shot matches together. I got my wife hooked 5 years ago and now we shoot together 3-4 weekends a month and we spend some vacation time every year going to an area match. nBest thing I ever did for our marriage.

i wish i could get my gf interested in shooting like that. i think i can with enough effort down the road and some time (shes busy with nursing school)

As for the new shooter topic, I myself am a new shooter into this sport. The first match i went to to watch, everyone at the range was super nice and a couple offered to let me shoot a stage with their gear (i get a lil iffy about shooting other people's guns, idk why). anyway, none of them said anything along the lines of buy this or buy that. They asked what guns i owned, told me what divisions id fit into and the absolutely necessary gear (holster, mag pouches, enough mags, etc). tons of help and encouragement, and i cant wait to get deeper involved. Already thinking of expanding into new divisions with new guns (production with a glock) too.

There are some good advice givers out there, just gotta look!

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I don't mean to be the devil here but, being one of those gm/m/a shooters I try to be nice, but when you the only one ROing ,then tapping ,then keeping score it gets to be a very long day. The last match we had 80 plus with 20 being new shooters and squads of 15 shooters plus walk ins. I can can tell you it sucks . The same safety problems over and over. But if I DQ them I'm a dick? But if they shoot someone I'm at fault?Then the caring helping people are busy training new shooters instead of setting steel and taping. Then they can't help because they forgot to load mags after shooting the last stage.

This effects my shooting and not in a good way. The last match I just sat down after 4 hours of being RO/ score keeper. Guess what nobody stepped up. Because they're not a RO. But they have time to video each other. Not to mention telling me move because I'm in their way . I'm the RO you move!

Then the new shooters are wanting to waste more time looking for that perfect double. Breaking out the rule book over nothing.

A match that you could shoot in a total of 4 hours takes 6 hours then a 2 hour ride home. But I'm my own worst enemy.

What will happen when the 50 year old guys like me have had enough. We will stop. There are way to many shooters out there that just think of ME ME ME! I use to love to be on the range. I've been involved in the shooting sports since 1978. There are times when I just hate going to local matches.

Also another little point is paying your dues. Yep guess what you should be taping and setting steel.

A lot of us have payed them. So sometimes I just want to shoot and not be bothered as I'm stepping in the box for my turn shoot. THERE IS NO RANGE ETIQUETTE ANYMORE!!

Take a class, pay an instructor but its YOUR responsibilty to know the rules and act in a safe manner. Here is the kicker I payed my match fee to shoot . Not ro/score/ or pat your butt and tell you how great your doing. But if I don't jump up to help you I'm my own worst enemy. As far as firearms go at least learn how to load and unload it without sweeping yourself or breaking the 180 when doing so. After that shoot what you like.

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I don't mean to be the devil here but, being one of those gm/m/a shooters I try to be nice, but when you the only one ROing ,then tapping ,then keeping score it gets to be a very long day. The last match we had 80 plus with 20 being new shooters and squads of 15 shooters plus walk ins. I can can tell you it sucks . The same safety problems over and over. But if I DQ them I'm a dick? But if they shoot someone I'm at fault?Then the caring helping people are busy training new shooters instead of setting steel and taping. Then they can't help because they forgot to load mags after shooting the last stage.

This effects my shooting and not in a good way. The last match I just sat down after 4 hours of being RO/ score keeper. Guess what nobody stepped up. Because they're not a RO. But they have time to video each other. Not to mention telling me move because I'm in their way . I'm the RO you move!

Then the new shooters are wanting to waste more time looking for that perfect double. Breaking out the rule book over nothing.

A match that you could shoot in a total of 4 hours takes 6 hours then a 2 hour ride home. But I'm my own worst enemy.

What will happen when the 50 year old guys like me have had enough. We will stop. There are way to many shooters out there that just think of ME ME ME! I use to love to be on the range. I've been involved in the shooting sports since 1978. There are times when I just hate going to local matches.

Also another little point is paying your dues. Yep guess what you should be taping and setting steel.

A lot of us have payed them. So sometimes I just want to shoot and not be bothered as I'm stepping in the box for my turn shoot. THERE IS NO RANGE ETIQUETTE ANYMORE!!

Take a class, pay an instructor but its YOUR responsibilty to know the rules and act in a safe manner. Here is the kicker I payed my match fee to shoot . Not ro/score/ or pat your butt and tell you how great your doing. But if I don't jump up to help you I'm my own worst enemy. As far as firearms go at least learn how to load and unload it without sweeping yourself or breaking the 180 when doing so. After that shoot what you like.

These are some very good points. When I shot my very first match I did fine. I knew guns. I knew safety. But alot of new shooters don't. I wish there was a way to get all the new shooters together in a squad without slowing the whole match down. This way they could get "certified?" to shoot a full match. I actually posted in this thread a long time ago about feeling like I would be bothering people when they are trying to focus on their match. Now that I have a full season under my belt I still feel that that could be the case. I have no problem with a new shooter at all. Shooting slow is fine, but taking extra time to tutor somebody on each and every step of the process can be a problem because it interrupts the rhythm of the squad. Yes, I believe there is a rhythm that settles in as the match progresses.

I am trying to get a small league/practice program off the ground at my club which will be held each month before our match. This would be a great way to get shooters more in line with the program than thrusting them into a match. Hell, I actually thought of practicing everthing from "Make Ready" to "Unload and Show Clear" and everything in between, as well as shooting swingers and through ports etc..

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Quote from Sandman:

"......I am trying to get a small league/practice program off the ground at my club which will be held each month before our match. This would be a great way to get shooters more in line with the program than thrusting them into a match. Hell, I actually thought of practicing everthing from "Make Ready" to "Unload and Show Clear" and everything in between, as well as shooting swingers and through ports etc.. "

My thoughts exactly. With as many new shooters as you guys are having to deal with, there's bound to be some delays, flow interruptions, multiple safety issues, and so on.

Would USPSA consider setting up a national or Area training/familiarization program, that each new shooter would have to pass before being able to shoot anything but a local club's non-sanctioned match?

Before bringing any friend to a club match, I take them out for some 1on1 training. When we are done, at least they know how to LAMR and ULASC without sweeping themselves and others, have learned the responses to the various commands, and have been run through a mini-stage. At the club match, I don't expect the RO to babysit my guest - that's my responsibility.

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Would USPSA consider setting up a national or Area training/familiarization program, that each new shooter would have to pass before being able to shoot anything but a local club's non-sanctioned match?

Before bringing any friend to a club match, I take them out for some 1on1 training. When we are done, at least they know how to LAMR and ULASC without sweeping themselves and others, have learned the responses to the various commands, and have been run through a mini-stage. At the club match, I don't expect the RO to babysit my guest - that's my responsibility.

In the Netherlands we have a “training/familiarization program” that we have to pass before we can register for a match. Here you learn how to handle the gun and gear in a safe way when shooting IPSC and also you get thought some range etiquettes. Not that you know everything after this 1 day training but you know enough to be safe at a match.

Luckily I had been practicing with the IPSC team at the shooting rage so was already thought how to be safe (thanks Henny). But not everyone was able to pass the course so it is not just for show.

Edited by Patrick82

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I only read this initial post, from the OP, and I agree. Here's my perspective;

I've been a sportsman shooter/hunter and Army trained shooter for more than the past 25 years. Did my first IDPA event last Summer, as a walk along with a group, to get the feel of what goes on. Overall it was OK except for the after shooting time when we ate. I heard enough anti-Obama bullshit to fill an NRA recruitment evening. Yeah, I'm a Democrat, but you see, I started my military life with Ronald Reagan and went on through the Bushes. The Commander in Chief is democratically elected as part of the American process, and the CIC deserves that respect no matter what political party you're from.

I shoot for recreation and sport, not as a political activity. To listen to a bunch of whiny old men bitch about a certain political party is unattractive, no matter who they voted for or against. They can certainly exercise their freedom of speech and I'll take my money elsewhere to a place where Americans shoot for fun and pleasure, not a political statement of who they think they are, or who I'm SUPPOSED to vote for because I'm a shooter. It's too bad really, as the generation coming behind me is even less tolerant of this kind of crap, and where does that leave our shooters then?

The boys would gather down at the barber shop a couple hours before closing time, then go walk the fences together for pheasants, no matter who you voted for. Not anymore.

I'm noticing a trend, not just in IPSC but all around the shooting community, that I think is having a negative effect on gaining new shooters.

Quite often we see posts that lament the lack of new people coming into the sport or not sticking around. But have you listened to what we are telling them?

How many times have you heard someone list the equipment needed to a new shooter that you know is way over their head?

On the range the other day I heard a fairly senior RO explaining to a new shooter the type of gun and gear he should buy "to save money in the long run"

It included an S_I gun, top end, holster etc...becuse thats what he would end up with eventually, so he might as well start there.

Whatever happened to "Use the gun you have or buy something simple (Glock), get a cheap holster and pouches and come out and have some fun!"

How discouraging do you think it is to a newbie investigating the sport to be told he has to spend thousands of dollars on a gun and gear "to save money?"

I see it with rifle shooting to, after posting a similar thread as this:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=735956

on another forum, I got a few responses telling me how I had to upgrade all my loading gear and spend much more time loading in order to be competitive. I responded that I was just trying to find a decent load to work with my stock rifle and mid range scope, and the response I got back was less than encouraging. I took it as :"If you don't do this, you are wasting your time."

How about we think about how we talk to new shooters to get them out, instead of trying to outfit them as a Grandmaster for their first day? Do you supply your kids with University texts on their first day of Kindergarten because they will eventually need them anyways?

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Mods... please don't close this thread down.... :(

When a buddy and I put on a "How to shoot USPSA" seminar/class earlier this year, we did specifically mention etiquette while on the range/at the match.

If people are holding up the tape-ing and resetting of steel because they are too busy video'ing their buddies...well...that's an issue you have to take up with the MD, as in set a "NO video'ing matches" rule.

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If people are holding up the tape-ing and resetting of steel because they are too busy video'ing their buddies...well...that's an issue you have to take up with the MD, as in set a "NO video'ing matches" rule.

Why? Videotaping done correctly occurs during the shooter's run, not while the stage needs to be scored and reset.....

And really --- a blanket rule for all match participants, because a couple of people don't know what they are doing? I shoot regularly with a couple of folks who tape each other --- and manage to RO, scorekeep, set steel and paste targets.....

And it's not like they're rocket scientists..... :roflol: :roflol:

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I am that Newbie.....Joined a shooting club thursday....bought a XDm same day...handed it over to a friend to have it "tweeked". Stopped at Dillon show room yesterday, because everyone said I MUST BUY THAT, if I buy anything short of Dillon it is like flushing money down the toilet! Didn't buy for a few reasons. Found two of the folks there to be...well nevermind. Still looking around. Belt, holster, pouches,ear protection, extra mags, ammo...... haven't shot a round :) Wallet is on life support....But I am looking forward to my new found hobby!!!!!! :cheers:

Don C.

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