Nik Habicht Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I didn't notice the word change with the 2008 book.I would hope common sense and good judgment would preclude someone wearing their belt in such a loose manner as to become ankle gear. No such luck...or we wouldn't be talking about it. (Heck...it wouldn't need to be in the rule book to begin with.) Any clarity? Yeah --- I've got some: When you encounter the situation, make the call --- that's what we pay ROs, CROs, and RMs the big bucks for. As you're making the call, keep in mind that it's technically legal to shoot the game with the flimsiest of belts threaded through belt loops (might not be smart, but that's another story), and act accordingly. We deal with all kinds of situations, esp. with new shooters and less than ideally desirable equipment --- think soft cordura holsters --- so we should be able to handle this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I don't wanna. If we are going to have a rule on it...it would be nice to not have to guess. We have a guy that shows up to various matches and shoots in sweatpants. I think he finally came around in the last year or so and started wearing pants with belt loops. They wouldn't let him shoot at East Huntington, and he quit coming around to Rayner's for a bit. He is a good guy. He just does stuff...different. MD's at different clubs are likely to call this differently. I can't see how we'd want that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I don't wanna.If we are going to have a rule on it...it would be nice to not have to guess. We have a guy that shows up to various matches and shoots in sweatpants. He is a good guy. He just does stuff...different. MD's at different clubs are likely to call this differently. I can't see how we'd want that? I see a contradiction in your post. There's no guessing --- either the belt is securely fixed at the waist or it isn't. If it's not securely fixed at the waist, and appears to present a danger to the competitor or others on the range, the fact that the belt passes through the prescribed number of loops isn't going to keep the shooter in the match. Second --- the inner-outer belt combo are pretty well accepted in the sport, as are stiff gunbelts for the crowd that likes to shoot from more practical holster/mag pouch/belt rigs. So I'm not going to spend any time sweating the possibility of a guy who likes to shoot in sweats, until he shows up. Then I'll deal with him on the singular basis of whether or not his belt is securely fastened at the waist. Third --- we spend a fair amount of time shooting outdoors in the winter. Most of us take our coats off to shoot, some people keep them on as if they were concealment garments. I can see George's point about people wearing belts outside their coats in climates that are colder than the Northeast. So the belt rules really do need to work from Hawaii to Alaska.... Fourth -- MD's at different clubs already call things differently on a whole host of issues. We as shooters have multiple options if we don't like the call: We can discuss it and attempt to reach a mutually acceptable compromise, we can choose to acquiesce, we can choose to stop shooting at that club, we can kick the matter upstairs to the Section Coordinator --- it's not like we're victims.... Fifth --- if you really want to do things differently from the way that most people on the range are doing them, then you have to expect that occasionally some extra scrutiny or an unfavorable call may come your way. A lot of this comes down to shooter attitude toward the game. How someone chooses to think about and be affected by the variables of the game is in their control. (It used to bug the crap out of me when I'd get improper range commands, now I've adjusted to not allowing myself to be disturbed. I'll clarify anything other than "Make Ready" due to the potential consequences, but after that I'm good with anything. Life's too short, and I have enough trouble remembering stage plans.... :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 There is no time waiting to "sweat the possibility"...it's already happening at clubs I go to. I can't kick it up the the Section Coordinator...cause, that is me. (Besides, the SC has no basis to make the call.) We had a rule that was clear (or at least clearly accepted). I see the reasoning for the change. But, the change took away some of the clarity. We went from Black and white, too a shade of gray. I'm just looking for clarity. George and company changed the rule. I'd like to hear from them. (They might see this guy at Area 8. He might be on my squad. Should I contact him and tell him he can wear his sweat pants now? He would, if allowed...I'm sure.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 I can't kick it up the the Section Coordinator...cause, that is me. (Besides, the SC has no basis to make the call.) That wasn't quite what I was getting at --- but yes, the SC has a basis to make a call if one of the section clubs is not following the rulebook appropriately.... ....and yeah, I knew you were the Ohio SC..... ....the change took away some of the clarity. We went from Black and white, too a shade of gray. I'm just looking for clarity. Hm, really? Let's look at the change: 5.3.4 The belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment shall be at waist level. Either the belt or the inner belt or both must be permanently fixed at the waist or fixed with a minimum of three belt loops. --USPSA Rule Book, 14th Edition 2001 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either permanently fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. --IPSC Handgun Competition Rules, USPSA Version, January 2004. 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. -- USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, January 2008. I think it's crystal clear. I think that the only change has been to specificity --- in the word change from "permanently" to "securely" fixed. I think it's a minute change.... What did permanently fixed mean? Did that involve suturing or stapling or gluing the belt to the competitors body? :o I'm thinking that I've seen most people take off their belts after a match since 2001, so it doesn't appear that anyone was taking advantage of the "permanently fixed" language of the rules. Yes, I know -- it's a ridiculous analogy, but it seems equally ridiculous to me that Range Officers and/or Range Masters wouldn't be able to or willing to make that call..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 So what would be your call? Can a guy wear sweat pants and just loop the rig around or no? If so...how loose can we go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 So what would be your call? Can a guy wear sweat pants and just loop the rig around or no? Sure. A guy can wear whatever he wants, as long as he's not breaking any decency laws..... If so...how loose can we go? That's not the right question. The standard is that the belt must be securely fixed at the waist --- to me that means it can't move more than an inch or so vertically as the shooter moves, bends, kneels, stoops, etc. -- in other words about the same amount that most shooters beltlooped pants might move during similar movement. (I know I find myself hitching my pants up in the start box from time to time....) And I'm thinking that horizontal rotation is out...... So if you ask the shooter to give the belt a tug and it moves freely, that's not going to cut it..... In other words, the question is "Can the shooter cinch the belt tightly enough to comply with the securely fixed at the waist requirement?" Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 You seem pretty caught up in this one. I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just asking for some clarity. We used to call it one way...now it's more gray. OK, then... Happy? No, not really. I'd likely call it the other way. If you start at the beginning of this three page thread, you will read where it is likely to be called differently at different clubs. I can't be happy about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 (edited) If so...how loose can we go? That's not the right question. The standard is that the belt must be securely fixed at the waist --- to me that means it can't move more than an inch or so vertically as the shooter moves, bends, kneels, stoops, etc. -- in other words about the same amount that most shooters beltlooped pants might move during similar movement. (I know I find myself hitching my pants up in the start box from time to time....) And I'm thinking that horizontal rotation is out...... So if you ask the shooter to give the belt a tug and it moves freely, that's not going to cut it..... So you have a standard, but it is not an official standard, and every other RM will have will have a standard, that may not match any other standard. That's madness. Edited May 15, 2008 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 You seem pretty caught up in this one. I'm not trying to argue with you. Maybe I've been in student mode for too long this year --- my study partners and I go at it pretty hot and heavy. I'm not trying to argue with you either --- I am trying to wrap my head around the problem from your perspective, and to offer solutions that may work...... And rereading my last post now --- I can see that you might take the "Happy?" differently than if we were in the same room. There was a certain levity attached to it from my perspective... We used to call it one way...now it's more gray. Since I've never had to make a call on this issue, may I ask "What way was it that you used to call it?" What did you tell the sweatpants guy? What would you tell sweatpants guy tomorrow if he showed up with a belt rig that didn't move any more than yours does? If you start at the beginning of this three page thread, you will read where it is likely to be called differently at different clubs. I can't be happy about that. Yeah, I'd want the clubs in my section, heck in all of USPSA to make as many calls alike as possible. I just am not convinced that we can't learn to live with the new rule language --- esp. if it's accompanied by some education. I mean we figured out the whole two max on a no-shoot thing well before it reverted back.... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Sweatpants was asked not to come back to one club (in a different section) until he got some belt loops. At the only Ohio club that he shot USPSA at, he DQ'ed a couple years ago and didn't show up for a while (might have been asked not to by the MD). I probably shouldn't be putting this out there, it will likely come back to bite me...but that is just to show that it already is an issue, not an unlikely possibilty. Like I said, he is a good guy, he just does stuff differently. Now...how I feel...as a shooter... As a shooter, I have been to a few clubs (non-affiliated) that don't care. I have seen guys lose their rig. And, from that...I've seen muzzle. I don't shoot there anymore. I don't want to shoot with people that are accidents waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 If you start at the beginning of this three page thread, you will read where it is likely to be called differently at different clubs. I can't be happy about that. Yeah, I'd want the clubs in my section, heck in all of USPSA to make as many calls alike as possible. I just am not convinced that we can't learn to live with the new rule language --- esp. if it's accompanied by some education. The education is what I am looking for. (probably gonna need an official ruling...to make it count) I mean we figured out the whole two max on a no-shoot thing well before it reverted back.... :P lol....we did? I was reminding RO's (and MD's) about that one for quite a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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