ChrisStock Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 JimmyM, good observation on your part I inadvertently wore running shorts without belt loops one AM and my holster and magazine holders were swinging all over the place. Way too easy to lose equipment inadvertently. My gut had zero ability to contain my rig in place safely. Nothing like a couple of Limited mags full of 20 rounds of .40 sliding around and beating you in the crotch while running We don't have to like or understand why a rule is there, we just have to apply the rules to all shooters equally. If that isn't the be-all /end all bit of wisdom here, I don't what will make it clearer. On a personal note, I finally understood why the rule was in place after my own experience. It was painfully obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Watch the second shooter on this video. This was filmed at the 2008 Hawaii USPSA State Champ. Saw more than one competitor with LONG shirt tales and the belt worn over it. Ummm, am I missing something?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHS-401SwM Jim M I'm more than a little curious - why are they wearing their belt that way - comfort, convenience, laziness, or a "cool" factor? Is it a fashion statement? Definitely not an advantage gained, it might be a local fasion trend, since you mention you saw a few? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted April 11, 2008 Author Share Posted April 11, 2008 It is indeed a safety rule. I remember more than a few guns on the ground back in the day. Of course we were climbing over barriers and swinging via a rope from one shooting position to the next. The game has evolved and continues to. Gone are the days of flopping guns and Tarzan ropes. Thank God. Jim M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted April 11, 2008 Author Share Posted April 11, 2008 I'm more than a little curious - why are they wearing their belt that way - comfort, convenience, laziness, or a "cool" factor? Is it a fashion statement?Definitely not an advantage gained, it might be a local fasion trend, since you mention you saw a few? Good question. I think you answered them correctly. Kind of a local thing. Jim M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff686 Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 I saw a Junior at our club with those low-ride jeans hanging low slung with his underware showing. His rig was obviously not through the belt loops. I was about to quietly advise him of the rules, but then noticed the inner belt was thought the loops on his BOXERS!! Now that was something I just didn't need to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 slight drift -apology in advance. For every shooter who doesn't know or follow the rules, there is an RO/CRO/MD who lets them. Whether it be giving incorrect range commands, not standing where he/she can see the gun, letting the shooter get so far ahead of you that you cannot see anything (all that in just this one video) or whatever, we shoulder the blame for them "failing to do right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Putting my RM hat on for a minute, I think the words "securely fastened" mean something more than just putting a belt on. To me that means a Velcro under-belt, belt loops, or the belt keeper method.Just putting a belt on, absent any of the previously mentioned methods of securing it, I would not approve. Gary If "securely fastened" means more than tightening the belt around one's waist, than the rulebook should state that as such. I agree, there is no advantage that I can see, but aren't you reading something into the rulebook that is not there?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 The rule read "fixed" at the waist or 3 belt loops. It doesn't say anything about our fat asses or guts hold it on. So, with a CR speed belt, the inner belt must be the secured one, & with 3 loops would be the most common way?? Would the CR mag pouches have hold the mags perpendicular to the belt, with the first one being at the hip bone working backward for prod and SS. I'm just trying to verify what i have read in the rule book and comparing it to what i see at matches. May be looking to make a purchace. Thanks for any responses in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Putting my RM hat on for a minute, I think the words "securely fastened" mean something more than just putting a belt on. To me that means a Velcro under-belt, belt loops, or the belt keeper method.Just putting a belt on, absent any of the previously mentioned methods of securing it, I would not approve. Gary If "securely fastened" means more than tightening the belt around one's waist, than the rulebook should state that as such. I agree, there is no advantage that I can see, but aren't you reading something into the rulebook that is not there?? It's pretty clear to me, but I suppose things can always get better. If we take a step back and look at it...ask ourselves 'why is the rule in the book in the first place'. Whether or not if it is in there as a safety rule or as a line on how far to go with gaming the gear...it seems clear that they want that thing stuck there like lit was nail-gunned on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkin Chunker Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 (edited) rule quote..5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. I dunno -- it looks like the shooter's belt is pretty well fixed in place by the dunlop. Edited April 12, 2008 by Punkin Chunker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManNamedJed Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 I shoot production and started with a belt like the one in the video. I liked it because it was quick and easy to put on and it didnt matter what pants you happened to be wearing that day. A conventional belt made it hard to place everything exactly where you wanted it, depending on where the belt loops were. I bought a velcro inner/outer belt and don't like it nearly as much as the old one. Its narrower and my holster can shift around more. I never had any problems with the old belt moving around or ending up in my armpits. I wish i could still use it - reading the rule posted here, I think its actually legal. It is securely fastened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 I could see where a reasonable argument could be made that the generally accepted meaning of the rule and the actual wording of the rule are not the same. And that difference means a belt cinched around the waist could be defined as "secure" even though that is outside of the generally accepted meaning. Would be an interesting arbitration to be a fly on the wall during. The image of an arb committee making some guy jump up and down to prove his belt is "secure" is actually hilarious! Think I will just stick with my velcro underbelt and have one less worry in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 The rule read "fixed" at the waist or 3 belt loops. It doens't say anything about our fat asses or guts hold it on. kyle-this has been beat up over the years. i understand the rule, but i do not see the advantage-in fact, there would be very, very few cases where it would be an advantage. doesn't bother me a bit. i'd be worried about my own junk. I do. The rules are there for a reason. If you dont think that the rule is important is fine as long as the rule is followed by all. There are some rules that I dont neccessarily agree with but they are the rules we play by and dammit we are going to play by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Watch the second shooter on this video. This was filmed at the 2008 Hawaii USPSA State Champ. Saw more than one competitor with LONG shirt tales and the belt worn over it. Ummm, am I missing something?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHS-401SwM Jim M I'm more than a little curious - why are they wearing their belt that way - comfort, convenience, laziness, or a "cool" factor? Is it a fashion statement? Definitely not an advantage gained, it might be a local fasion trend, since you mention you saw a few? Its got to be a hawaii thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K45 Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) Hmmmm... I't doesn't really matter to me how other shooters choose to wear their belts, but I sure couldn't wear mine without an under-belt or in the loops to keep it from sliding all over the place! I would almost consider someone at a slight disadvantage if they didn't have their belt in loops anyway. However, I personally think it looks more professional and neater to wear the belt either in loops or over an under-belt. Just my two cents. Edited April 28, 2008 by Brenainn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robomanusa Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 rules are rules, If mine wasn't fixed thru loops it would be around my feet, I wish they made a belt small enough for us guys with no ass to hold it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 (edited) Just to provide a little background as to why the wording of this rule was changed...... Some clubs conduct matches in very cold climates where shooters compete in cold weather coats/gear. They have to wear their belt over their outer coats. The words "securely fixed at the waist" were added to allow them to compete legally. While I persnally prefer to use an inner/outer belt, I certainly can see where some conditions would prompt me to consider something "less". As long as the belt is securely fixed, it meets the requirement of the rule. I would hope common sense and good judgment would preclude someone wearing their belt in such a loose manner as to become ankle gear. Edited May 12, 2008 by George Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Just to provide a little background as to why the wording of this rule was changed......Some clubs conduct matches in very cold climates where shooters compete in cold weather coats/gear. They have to wear their belt over their outer coats. The words "securely fixed at the waist" were added to allow them to compete legally. While I personally prefer to use an inner/outer belt, I certainly can see where some conditions would prompt me to consider something "less". As long as the belt is securely fixed, it meets the requirement of the rule. I would hope common sense and good judgment would preclude someone wearing their belt in such a loose manner as to become ankle gear. So, what does "securely fixed" mean? They way you used it, it sounds like you can just wrap the belt around your waist, and if it does not fall off, it is "securely fixed". What's the point of the belt loop thing, if we default to accepting that if the belt does not fall off, it's legal? What's the point of the rule at all? The competitor dropping his gear is addressed elsewhere in the rules. George, Thanks for the input on the rules, we are sorely lacking information on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 :popcorn1: no winter coats here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. Just to provide a little background as to why the wording of this rule was changed......Some clubs conduct matches in very cold climates where shooters compete in cold weather coats/gear. They have to wear their belt over their outer coats. The words "securely fixed at the waist" were added to allow them to compete legally. As long as the belt is securely fixed, it meets the requirement of the rule. So, what does "securely fixed" mean? They way you used it, it sounds like you can just wrap the belt around your waist, and if it does not fall off, it is "securely fixed". What's the point of the belt loop thing, if we default to accepting that if the belt does not fall off, it's legal? What's the point of the rule at all? The competitor dropping his gear is addressed elsewhere in the rules. George, Thanks for the input on the rules, we are sorely lacking information on this one. Rich, given George's input, I now read the rule as providing one requirement "the belt is to be securely fixed at the waist" and one possible solution of how that can be accomplished via "securing with a minimum of three belt loops." Really -- if the belt is secured at the waist level, does it matter how it is secured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airedale Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Based on the interpretations above, it sounds like I can order a cool sort of old school Mernickle rig like the girl on the new Dillon catalogue is wearing and use it for single stack. Yea or nay? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Based on the interpretations above, it sounds like I can order a cool sort of old school Mernickle rig like the girl on the new Dillon catalogue is wearing and use it for single stack.Yea or nay? Dave Read the division rules very carefully --- there are special restrictions for SS...... Also look hard at the entirety of Section 5.2 of the rulebook.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Rich,given George's input, I now read the rule as providing one requirement "the belt is to be securely fixed at the waist" and one possible solution of how that can be accomplished via "securing with a minimum of three belt loops." Really -- if the belt is secured at the waist level, does it matter how it is secured? I checked the glossary, no definition for "securely fixed". What does "securely fixed" mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 Rich,given George's input, I now read the rule as providing one requirement "the belt is to be securely fixed at the waist" and one possible solution of how that can be accomplished via "securing with a minimum of three belt loops." Really -- if the belt is secured at the waist level, does it matter how it is secured? I checked the glossary, no definition for "securely fixed". What does "securely fixed" mean? That'll be up to the RMs to decide, won't it? We leave a lot of calls in their care. I'd be inclined to say that your rig better not move much as you run a stage, or walk around the range taping and setting steel..... The standard of comparison is probably going to be the inner/outer belt through a few belt loops as most of us have used it the last few years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I didn't notice the word change with the 2008 book. I would hope common sense and good judgment would preclude someone wearing their belt in such a loose manner as to become ankle gear. No such luck...or we wouldn't be talking about it. (Heck...it wouldn't need to be in the rule book to begin with.) Any clarity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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