Powder Selection

[Heavy Barrel]

I know that this is entirely opinionated.

But what would be some good powder choices to start out with when building loads for clays?

I don't what something thats going to leave a mess for me to deal with the way some of the promo loads I have used in the past.

[warpspeed]

Unless you are loading a Superhandicap load, I'd use Hodgdon Clays.

WST or WSF form Winchester are also good choices but I think you will be happy with Clays.

[D.Hayden]

If you load 9MM.. you might use the same thing.. Clays is good, I use to use 700X.. but the versatility with Clays would have me settle with it.

[Heavy Barrel]

When I was out at the dealer a few weeks back.

I passed the same question to a couple of associates working there.

One of them suggested Universal Clays. While the other suggested Long Shot.

When I looked up the data on these two powders......

Universal, appeared to be mediocre. I would have to use approx. 6.5-7grs. more per load than Clays.

Long Shot, to me appeared to be something on steroids. I would have to use at least twice the volume per load.

And what would be the advantages of producing loads that are clocked at over 1400-1500fps?

I presume the shooter would be at the mercy of the recoil produced.

[Ross Carter]

+1 for clays unless you want the really high velocity loads but I believe they are way overated. The abuse you take from the hot loads will cost you many more birds than they might gain in my experience. In fact I've run 25 at trap several times with 750 fps 1 oz loads just to prove it. I like 1oz at about 1150 for just about everything.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Ross Carter

[Hank Ellis]

My first 5,000 reloads was with Clays. I've since switched to International Clays for one reason. To get the pressures down to 9,000 to 10,000psi.

1 1/8 oz loads for everything. 2 3/4 dram for singles and skeet. 3 dram for handicap and sporting clays.

[sargenv]

Here are my choices and why...

Hodgdon Clays - Nice consistent load, most people have it if they load any kind of pistol ammo.

Alliant Red Dot - also consistent, though it can be a little dirty, it has been reformulated to be cleaner.

Alliant Green Dot - A little slower than Red dot and can be used when a little more velocity is wanted/needed. May feel a little softer than the faster burning choices above.

Alliant Bullseye - Usually too fast to use for standard 1 1/8 ounce loads but it has some versatility for light clays loads out of a 12 gauge. You can use as little as 16.5 gr with a 7/8 ounce charge of shot and get some really mildly recoiling loads.

Alliant Select - In the middle in burn rate between Red Dot and Green Dot. It is a newer powder than these two but older than the new Clay Dot. Was formulated to be cleaner and a little more versatile than Red Dot.

Hi Skor 700x - In the same range as CLays and Red Dot. Usually about a 17-18 gr charge will get 1 1/8 ounces of shot to a standard 1200 fps. Has been known to be dirty in the past but I'd heard it too was reformulated to be cleaner.

Accurate Arms Nitro 100 - Another powder similar to Clays and Red Dot. I'd always felt that this one had a little more felt recoil to it in comparison. Similar charge weights. If I couldn't get any of the other powders I'd use Nitro 100.

Hodgdon Titewad - A lower cost powder that will do everything else that the rest will do. With a name like titewad, well, you don't need much to make things work.

Alliant Promo - This one uses Red Dot data but costs a bit less than most powders. I think this one is the competition with Titewad. It only comes in 8 pound kegs.

Alliant Clay Dot - I don't know much about this one as it's pretty new. It is supposd to be formulated to be clean and consistent.

Hodgdon Trap 100 - This one is probably the equivalent of the old Winchester 452AA. That was a Winchester standard about 20 years ago when I started reloading. I used a pound or two and it worked as good as any. Being a ball powder I found that it was a bit dirtier than the other brands.

Acurate arms Solo-1000 - A slightly slower burning powder than Nitro 100. Can be used for some handicap loads (Higher velocity). I use it mainly for 38 spl (even though there really is no data for it). I've not tried using it for shotshell loads but have read the data for it. Probably softer feeling than Nitro-100.

Longshot is a Magnum powder meant for heavy field loads and for reloading steel shot. Universal clays is also something a lot slower than is needed for target loads. You can use it, but that's not all that good. It would be better suited for standard 20 gauge loads.

Any other questions, feel free to pm me.

[Irishlad]

Nice list by sargenv.

Clays is a good powder for 12 gauge. Hodgdon has a wide variety of loads with different hulls and componants so you can stick to the published recipes. Hodgdon will also respond to questions...which is nice if needed.

[3GunF1Guy]

If you can find Promo use that. It uses the same data as Red Dot and is much less expensive. Red Dot/Promo is a low charge weight powder so you will use only about 18-20 gr for a standard 3 dram(1200 fps) 1 1/8 oz load. Some say it is dirty but I find it to be clean, WAY CLEANER than those promo wal mart shells from Federal or Winchester. It seems to shoot softer for me than any of the Hogdon powders like Tightwad and Tightgroup.

Scott

[Doggorloader]

I load for and shoot well over 10,000 sporting clays targets a year and I agree with Mr. Ellis.

In Hodgdon powders International Clays is the ticket. But.....I load 1 oz. When I switched to 1 oz two years ago my average went up 3 targets a round at least. I think it's a combo of less recoil and higher speed. I also break more long targets and with harder hits.

Or, maybe I'm just happier cause it's cheaper and I shoot more.

As to clean, I wipe my gun down and lube the pivot but I don't clean the barrels maybe every 2-3 months. Never thought much as to the powder being dirty. I get wad residue in the ports before anything else.

Whatever powder (load) you end up liking, keep with it. Experimenting just adds one more variable to the mix.

[Hank Ellis]

I load for and shoot well over 10,000 sporting clays targets a year and I agree with Mr. Ellis.

What? You're agreeing with me? You're going to ruin my reputation.

Since I shoot an auto in Trap, recoil isn't an issue. But I am considering going to 1oz loads when this batch of wads is used up. Partly to save a bit of $$ but way too many shooters who are way better than I am say that the 1oz loads pattern better. As one sage told me, "If you miss with a 1oz load you would have missed with a 1 1/8oz load."

Think I'll buy a bag of 1oz wads and give it a try.

[EricW]

I'm loving 1oz at mid-1100's as well. Plenty of poop, but a lot less abuse. I wish 7/8 oz was available in a bargain shell, because I'd be highly inclined to shoot them at everything 30 yards and in.

[HSMITH]

The pattern board will tell you what you want to know. That said, most 12 ga guns are going to like Clays very well. If you have a fixed choke gun and/or don't like changing chokes you can manipulate patterns way more than you would think possible with powder selection. Generally slower powders will pattern tighter and faster powders will pattern looser.

Getting a gas gun to run really light loads will often require slower powders too, my 3 1/2" guns run 7/8oz reloads with the reliability of the atomic clock and a couple 3/4 ounce loads too once I found the powder I needed.

[Heavy Barrel]

While beating the drum of this subject....

I finally broke down and purchased four lbs of Clays.

Though after doing so a question come to thought. How well does clays perform with 20ga loads.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Heavy Barrel

[HSMITH]

Clays and 20 don't mix. You want Intenational or Universal for 20.

[sargenv]

I see that there is mention of light loads in an auto. I actually prefer 7/8 ounce loads thrown a bit faster (1250-1300) and they cycle reliably in my Gold. They are every bit as effective for clays as the 1 ounce load is. It has a bit fewer pellets but the adage goes that if you miss with a 7/8 ounce load, the 1 or 1 1/8 ounce load will not make it any better. I've shot my share of 25's in skeet with it (ligt recoil, good recovery) and I've shot some 5 stand with it. I bellieve the International loads are 24 grams (around 7/8 ounce) and are moving along at about 1400 fps. My Gold eats em all and if you shoot an o/u you will feel less push from the lighter shells. In this day of expensive lead, you can get an additional 57 rounds out of a bag of shot over the 1 ounce loads.. Bullseye, Red Dot, Clays, are good for this..

[bomadera]

Another reason to switch from Clays to International Clays is, Clays does not like cold weather. I asked the Hogdon rep about this and he told me to switch to International Clays, I did and no more problems with cold weather.

My first 5,000 reloads was with Clays. I've since switched to International Clays for one reason. To get the pressures down to 9,000 to 10,000psi.

1 1/8 oz loads for everything. 2 3/4 dram for singles and skeet. 3 dram for handicap and sporting clays.

[ranger]

I used International Clays and a 1 oz load when I re-loaded 12 gauge for Sporting Clays.

[Heavy Barrel]

Adding to this.......

Is there some "magical" way to measure dram from a hand load?

Reading up on a Benelli I just got, according to the manual, they recommend loads that are nothing less than a 3 dram equivalency, to cycle the action.

Thats all I shot in my Beretta, when I was buying factory loads to shoot clays.

Everything that I have got when searching for information about "Dram" relates to computers and a form of RAM i.e. "Dynamic random access memory". Though nothing relates to measuring the energy from a shotgun shell.

Unless somehow I have put the cart before the horse

Edited February 16, 2009 by Heavy Barrel

[Jaxshooter]

I have used Clays since it came out. I load 1 oz loads at 1180 fps for Trap and Sporting Clays. For handicap trap I shoot 1 1/16 oz loads a little over 1200 fps for doubles I shoot 7/8 oz first shot and a 1 oz second. I shoot a Seitz for singles and handicap and a Kolar for doubles, so I make sure my loads don't beat on me.

If they can break targets with 7/8 oz loads in Olympic Bunker Trap it should tell us something.

[Heavy Barrel]

Does this look like something reliable?

Dram Calculations

Edited February 16, 2009 by Heavy Barrel

[Ray R.]

I've used Clays for years in my 12 guage guns. Why? Because without a doubt its the cleanest shotgun powder available.

I shoot 7/8 oz. loads for skeet and five stand sporting. I run this load about 1300 f/s, and it functions just fine in my Benelli. If you check the Hodgdon data, you will find quite a few 7/8 oz. loads both slower and faster then the one I'm using.

I also use 8.5 shot as it gives me almost the same pellet count as a 1 oz. load of 8's, and hits a bit harder at longer ranges than no. 9 shot.

As for cold weather problems with Clays, I've never experienced them. I do know that certain wads can cause problems in cold weather as several of my friends have had trouble with a particular brand, and the manufacturer has admitted the problem and is working to correct it. (I use the Claybuster pink wad for 7/8 oz. loads. AA12Sl equivalent).

If you load 7/8 oz loads, you might want to stick to a case like Winchester AA because of it's smaller internal dimentions, as opposed to a case like the Federal.

[HSMITH]

I shot year round up here with Clays and never had a problem, though I didn't shoot much when it was below about 10*. I only shot 4 or 5 rounds when it was that cold. The problem I had was with Duster wads shattering in the cold, but genuine Winchester wads were flawless so I shot Dusters in the warm weather and Winchester in the winter for a season. Duster claimed they were going to fix it back around 2001, and from what I see laying on the range they still break in the cold. I ended up buying Winchester wads in larger quantities and got the price well under a cent each more than Duster so I could load and shoot any time anywhere.

[Hank Ellis]

Does this look like something reliable?

Dram Calculations

The chart is spot on in 12ga for todays loads.

Couldn't sleep one night so did some digging on the 'Net. Been toying with getting a muzzleloading shotgun to play at Trap and Skeet. Not one of those inline jobs but external hammer percussion job. Just something different to do every so often. So what is the loading data for a muzzle stuffer scattergun?

Dram is an antiquated unit of measure of weight. 1 dram = 27.3 grains. 3 dram = 82.0 grains. In blackpowder shotguns if you had a 3 dram charge with a 1.125 oz payload you'd get about 1200 fps. It became part of the shooting vernacular. Say '3 dram load' and everybody knew what you were talking about. So here comes those fancy smokeless powders and how do you tell the buying public what they were getting? Stamp on the box "3 dram equivalent" and the public knew that it was a 1.125 oz load at 1200. Ignore what the actual charge was. You'd think that 100 years later we'd dump this ancient tidbit but it still works. Problem today is that most people don't know what a dram is. I didn't till just a few days ago.

So Heavy Barrel, you need a 3 dram load to run your Benelli. That translates to 1.125 oz at 1200 fps or 1.0 oz at 1250 fps. Take a look at the online Hodgdon charts and pass an eye over the speeds at the right side. There's a bunch of them.

I've decided on my loads for the next season. 1 oz at 1200 for Trap Singles and Skeet using Clays. 1.125 oz at 1145 for Handicap and Sporting Clays using International Clays.

[crazyloks]

hsmith; where did you find wads for that price?(i would like to know)

heavy; i shoot federal 2 3/4 dram out of my benelli and have no problem. got them from wally world.