TSA Accident explained

[Loves2Shoot]

TSA Firearm policy vid

Thought some of you might find this interesting.

[boz1911]

That was interesting and informative.

[Coach]

Oh My! Sometimes I wonder how human beings are still around at all.

[j2fast]

Oh My! Sometimes I wonder how human beings are still around at all.

My standard is that based on some of the stupidity I see at work everyday I'm surprised the majority of folks can find their way back to work 5 days a week....

[AWLAZS]

I like the comments. I work with TSA on a daily basis they have a ton of rules.

[ChrisStock]

Oh My! Sometimes I wonder how human beings are still around at all.

You and me both

[AlamoShooter]

Are you sure this should not have ben posted on tuseday?

[UW Mitch]

That was very informative and objective. At least the flight deck officer did not let the muzzle of the loaded weapon flag his body.

~Mitch

[JThompson]

That is not the first AD with that holster either. There were a number in training and the one on the plane. It's assinine... They used to have a box they carried... not the best, but better than this. As long as the snap is in place it will work as designed. If you have to have a lock, design a holster that prevents the gun from being drawen, but does not touch the trigger. It would be easy to make it clasp over the butt instead of through the trigger. The holster will prevent the Ad and if you can't pull it.. it's no danger. They were hung up on "trigger lock" and forced the designer to use this method. I'd bet money they told them it was a bad idea as well.

They need to pull those out of service immediatly, but they will insist it's safe when used properly. While that may be true... they increase the chance of an AD by a factor of ten... perhaps more. It's a shame, but someone will probably have to die or down a plane before they admit it's a dumb ass design.

JT

EDIT: I wouldn't be suprised if someone got there tit in a ringer over that video.

Edited April 4, 2008 by JThompson

[el pres]

Absoloutly unbelievable!!!!!

And the comments after the video, even more Unbelievable!!!

That dam NRA, always pushing too much gun safety!!

Edited April 4, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[J-Ho]

Can I use that holster in IDPA or production division?

[Larry White]

I worked for the gov. for 30+ years but this is the stupidest thing I ever saw. Between the FBI, DEA, US Marshals service ect the goverment has a few really badass pistoleros(John Murray and the forums Eric Lund come to mind)on the payroll and this policy had to have been written by a troll hidden in a corner somewhere. Be really out of bounds to call one of these folks and ask what to buy and how to deploy it.------------Larry

[Dave Gundry]

My only idea is that the holster was designed to also function as a sort of trigger lock. A much safer design would be to put the lock as far forward as possible, so that it can only touch the front part of the trigger guard - but then again, a meat head may still be able to hook the lock in there and swing it towards the trigger...

[G-ManBart]

Even though I get to see government stupidity on a daily basis, that one is REALLY stupid!

[el pres]

Could be wrong but what I heard is that that holster design has been the

Secret Service holster for a few years ???

Of coarse their manual may state, " UNLOAD Firearm before installing lock"!!!

Edited April 5, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[konkapot]

Boy. At the risk of hurting people's feelings.............

1. FFDOs are not issued Sig pistols.

2. JThompson you reference an AD with that holster in a training environment. I'm in that training environment and have heard of no such thing. Can you be more specific?

3. If I understood that video correctly, this Anonymous Internet Guy hypothesizes that the gun was not completely seated in the holster, and that when the padlock was shoved in the holster hole, that pushed the trigger back, and caused the round to discharge? Is that his theory?

3a. If so, that means that the retention snap on the holster would have had to be unsnapped. Kinda hard for that to happen with these holsters unless it were done deliberately by a pilot. If it were done deliberately, then it's the pilots behavior that is the problem, not the holster or TSA policies.

4. There is a compromise between accessiblity of the weapon and the security of the weapon. Kinda like duty holsters for cops....they've got to be able to get them out, but need to have some retention device against the weapon being taken from them. Padlocks in the holster....not that great of an idea, but what's the alternative? Training in wpns retention? A Level III type holster for pilots? The training schedule while they're here is already full. Making the training longer would be tough.

I'm not an apologist for the government....plenty of examples of felony retardation in the Gov. In this case, the ramblings of an anonymous dude on YouTube (of all places!) doesn't really provide information....kinda like a drunk guy singing while he urinates.

Apoligizing in advance if I hurt anyone's feelings, especially Anonymous Internet Guy. Or people who sing while they urinate.

FY42385

[Duane Thomas]

When I click on the link in the first post, I go to the appropriate page on the 'net, but the "screen" on which the video should appear is just blank. (?)

[el pres]

When I click on the link in the first post, I go to the appropriate page on the 'net, but the "screen" on which the video should appear is just blank. (?)

Heres another link !!

[JThompson]

2. JThompson you reference an AD with that holster in a training environment. I'm in that training environment and have heard of no such thing. Can you be more specific?

I don't want to do that. Suffice it to say I believe it.

4. There is a compromise between accessibility of the weapon and the security of the weapon. Kinda like duty holsters for cops....they've got to be able to get them out, but need to have some retention device against the weapon being taken from them. Padlocks in the holster....not that great of an idea, but what's the alternative? Training in wpns retention? A Level III type holster for pilots? The training schedule while they're here is already full. Making the training longer would be tough.

Like I said above... there are many ways to design a holster without blindly putting a look in the trigger area. Why no just build a friggn box in the cockpit and stow the damn thing in there when he/she needs to have a pee? Shit the could do a damn bio lock box and lock them in there before the flight and take them out after... It takesa about a second to release a bio lock. Then the damn thing isn't hanging on a belt getting bumped, pulled and bounced around for hours. Let alone, how that feels to the pilot. You think he might want to take that puppy off when sitting for an OS flight? You bet, there's another potential problem.

Every time you handle a gun you increase the chance of an AD. When you have these people making multiple flights in a day... say 4 flights. That's a minimum of 8 times they have to lock and unlock that damn thing and that's not counting having a pee or moving into the cabin. The policy is asking for ADs. If they don't change it this will not be the last.

Do I think this guy screwed the pooch? Yep. Do I think he had help from a moronic holster and policy? Yep.

Don't look to assign blame to one poor schlub who screwed the pouch... make a system that prevents, rather than promotes this type of problem.

Edited April 7, 2008 by JThompson

[Larry White]

I think that drunk guy urinated all over somebodys stupid policy.---------------Larry

[racerba]

4. There is a compromise between accessiblity of the weapon and the security of the weapon. Kinda like duty holsters for cops....they've got to be able to get them out, but need to have some retention device against the weapon being taken from them. Padlocks in the holster....not that great of an idea, but what's the alternative? Training in wpns retention? A Level III type holster for pilots? The training schedule while they're here is already full. Making the training longer would be tough.

Level III holsters are to prevent others from taking the weapons from the officers. The TSA mandates the padlocks to prevent the pilot to retrieve the weapon because they do not trust the pilots. There is a big difference.

[Michael Carlin]

Every time you handle a gun you increase the chance of an AD. When you have these people making multiple flights in a day... say 4 flights. That's a minimum of 8 times they have to lock and unlock that damn thing and that's not counting having a pee or moving into the cabin. The policy is asking for ADs. If they don't change it this will not be the last.

I disagree, I think that less handling in training and in practice generates a greater level of anxiety, which inhibits thinking about the correct process.

Good training provides the trained with a confident alertness to the correct process.

Without approval or condemnation of the padlock I offer this comment: If the possibility of the shackle being placed on the wrong side of the trigger while the pistol is not fully holstered is not trained into the process, then you reap what you sow.

The procedure should start with:

"Ensure that the pistol is fully seated in the holster and the retention strap is snapped. This will allow the padlock to be fastened in the holster safely Failure to do so may result in an accidental discharge when inserting the shackle into the holster or subsequently snapping the retention strap"

I also noted that in the process of handling the holstered pistol it was allowed to sweep the demonstrators body. This is not good practice. The pistol is loaded and should be handled as the negligent discharge flight officer did, pointed away from himself.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Flexmoney
somehow, the quote was credited to the wrong person

[el pres]

For years, different agencies have been going to Double Action, Decocker, 20lbs trigger pulls, etc.. to

prevent an AD by undertrained agents, soldiers, or officers, etc.. (ie.) desk jockeys, truck drivers, or

employees that just learn the minimum to pass.

You would think they would use a child proof holster also !! That holster, which is safe if everybody pays 100% attention all

the time to what they are doing, is kinda of like a 1911 cocked and locked, totally safe with an effort to keep it that way.

** Not intended to say that truck drivers cant shoot or in anyway starting a discussion on the safety of a C&L 1911**

[JThompson]

Every time you handle a gun you increase the chance of an AD. When you have these people making multiple flights in a day... say 4 flights. That's a minimum of 8 times they have to lock and unlock that damn thing and that's not counting having a pee or moving into the cabin. The policy is asking for ADs. If they don't change it this will not be the last.

I disagree, I think that less handling in training and in practice generates a greater level of anxiety, which inhibits thinking about the correct process.

Good training provides the trained with a confident alertness to the correct process.

I understand your thinking on this and agree that people should be well practiced handling their weapon. If my choice was to carry in that rig or not to carry, I would be hard pressed to make the choice to use that rig. Having a lock in the trigger area, blind, of a loaded gun makes me pucker. If I were a pilot I would be doubly nervous with 300 people's lives on the line.

When looking at this issue we have to remember few, if any, have the proficiency and time behind a gun as us. Nor, will they ever. One could say that this is your point... but these people are not into it as we are.

Cops handle guns every day and we've all seen them AD. These people use a gun day in and out for years and still have issues. Even with our level of training we have ADs. Granted the pilot isn't running and gunning as we do, but if we just ran around a COF with a gun holstered, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have ADs, unless it's when we loaded, holstered, or unloaded.

What should be kept in mind is to make it as easy as possible for the pilot to handle the gun safely, but still timely acquire the gun. IMO it would be easy to put a box in the cockpit and put the gun in there with a bio/combo lock when leaving the cockpit. You don't screw with a loaded gun on an aircraft in flight. Any procedure which causes a gun to be handled more than necessary, in flight, is a risk best eliminated.

Look. I'm not sure this program wasn't setup to fail from the beginning.

Edited April 7, 2008 by JThompson
correct the quote credit

[Loves2Shoot]

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