Bill J Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 While killing some time at a shoot the other day a friend and I were talking about what is the perfect rifle scope for 3 gun would be if you were going to buy one from one of the big 3 German manufacturers. Here are the pros and cons as we saw it: Biggest con with all is the price Schmidt & Bender is 1.1x4, has the option of using the scope illuminated or not, has a dot, what appears to be mil dot, different inputs for weight bullets and velocity (if that floats your boat) Zeiss is a 1.1x4, non illuminated, appears to have a bit of a greater field of view Swarovski is a 1x6, illuminated, has a dot and about the same field of view With Swarovski having a true 1 power I wonder if the other manufacturers are going to follow suit and try and come out with something sililiar or if they are content with what they have? It's funny after a shoot how you can critique what you have and how it should be better. To me (if money was no object) I'd go with the Schmidt & Bender because it seems to cover most everything. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I am not an "optic guy", but I have played with all the above and hands down it is the Swarovski Zi6, next choice would be the Meopta K-dot, skip the Zeis and any other 1.1...1.5 scopes Swarov and Meopta!!! Kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Get a Leupold and have a bunch of $$ left over for practice ammo. This message sponsored by Leupold and your practice ammo company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I've been switching back and forth between a Meopta 1-4 (non-K dot, non-illuminated) and an Accupoint 1.25-4. The optics, field of view, and true 1x of the Meopta are great. But I really like the fiber optics in the Accupoint. Even though it isn't 1x on the low end, the bright reticle really draws the eye and I don't feel like I'm any slower with it. Sorry this is off topic a bit, but I don't have any experience with the scopes you mention. I'd probably opt for the Swarovski because of the true 1x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I am not an "optic guy", but I have played with all the above and hands down it is the Swarovski Zi6, next choice would be the Meopta K-dot, skip the Zeis and any other 1.1...1.5 scopes Swarov and Meopta!!! Kurtm Kurt, I have only tried the Swarovski and other than its ability to go to 6x I dont like it. It has really large reticles up to the illuminated circle and it is harder to judge your hold with it. I havent tried a K-dot but everyone raves. My tr21r is still what I am using as I havent found anything else that I like that iI would purchase yet. I have a Ta-01 that works like a champ but it is fixed power and is slower at the close stuff, but out past 50 it works great. It is a shame about the Swarovski to as it is expensive and I thought it would be the answer. I have now sold it to a friend and am still in search of the best 1-4 scope out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIO Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Their reticles suck being in the FFP. I've got a JPJ1 and a circle chevron scope that I find unusable on 1x for up close and fast targets. Erik Lund is working with them to get them to incorporate his new reticle design into the rear focal plane. Now the hold up is getting it illuminated in the rear focal plane. On a side note..........their glass is phenomenal. Their 4x is so clear and distortion free its almost like 6x. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roar M Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 What about the Zeiss Varipoint 1,1-4, with ret. 0 ? I'm very pleased with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastshooter03 Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 AT the SHot SHOw one of the USO guys said they are working on a 1-8x but that's probably just talk. 1-6 would be plenty for 3-gun I think. Maybe with a 35 or 40mm tube so they could use bigger lenses and a cool green reticle for accurate hold over. Anybody like green reticles? I'm assuming it's a similar concept to the green lasers being easier to see in daylight. I've never used either though. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsaxdog Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 great thread!!! i have a 1.25-4 accupoint that i really like, but it's not doable for the long 300-400 yd. shots for the lack of holdover. inside of 250 it rules, but i want something with the eye relief that's fast and you still got the holdover capability/stadia lines, mil-rad, etc. i thought the specter DR was gonna be it, but you can't focus the thing, and with my eyes, it ain't happenin'. help me out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Well USO may be a better scope, and I sure dont have a love affair with the German/Swiss optics, but I am not willing to wait 4-6 months to get the scope I want either. I can order and recieve within a couple of days the K-dot, Tr21-r or even the new IORscopes. I can also go with Leupold and have it almost immediately, So if buying some of these scopesmeans having to wait extended periods then I will go with another. As it is now all of my scopes except 1 is either Trijicons or Leupolds, and I dont see that changing anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 great thread!!! i have a 1.25-4 accupoint that i really like, but it's not doable for the long 300-400 yd. shots for the lack of holdover. inside of 250 it rules, but i want something with the eye relief that's fast and you still got the holdover capability/stadia lines, mil-rad, etc. i thought the specter DR was gonna be it, but you can't focus the thing, and with my eyes, it ain't happenin'. help me out..... i have a great reticle in the GRSC-nothing like it, but since it's FFP, and the illumination is non-existant at 1x, that means 2 scopes. u know, the accupoint ain't bad. i may even go back to it soon. used to dred the holdover issue, but taran is right, forget doing that. use the evelation knobs. dial it in at 25, 100, 200, 300 , etc, and get your dope. then, depending upon the stage, dial it in for the longest shot. for example, at the 3gun nats 2 years ago in albany, we were shooting long range rifle out to 340+. some paper at about 50, flashers at 150 out to 340+. no problem. dial it to 350, and HOLD UNDER everything else. if you know where it hits, holding under is easy with the tr21. besides, holding over means lobbing rounds to a POA...holding under means the bullet is likely rising anyway. it all makes sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsaxdog Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 yeah, i been trying this, but after 300 it gets tough! alot of voodoo in the bullet weight/ballistics/wind doping thing. 250 zero works fine for 200-300yd shots, but w/ 77's the drop past that is alot. just tried this yesterday.....thinking of trying to mark the turret and dial up for better than 300. not what i really wanna do in the middle of a long range stage, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill J Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Their reticles suck being in the FFP. I've got a JPJ1 and a circle chevron scope that I find unusable on 1x for up close and fast targets. Erik Lund is working with them to get them to incorporate his new reticle design into the rear focal plane. Now the hold up is getting it illuminated in the rear focal plane. On a side note..........their glass is phenomenal. Their 4x is so clear and distortion free its almost like 6x. Why do you find it unusable @ close range, is it becaue it's not illuminate or ??? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Their reticles suck being in the FFP. I've got a JPJ1 and a circle chevron scope that I find unusable on 1x for up close and fast targets. Erik Lund is working with them to get them to incorporate his new reticle design into the rear focal plane. Now the hold up is getting it illuminated in the rear focal plane. On a side note..........their glass is phenomenal. Their 4x is so clear and distortion free its almost like 6x. Why do you find it unusable @ close range, is it becaue it's not illuminate or ??? Bill Because you can't see it. Its too small. 1x is for up close and fast. The reticle in FFP is not for up close and fast. Illumination sure would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Any opinions on the TR21-3 with the German #4 crosshair and illuminated dot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustShootOK Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Their reticles suck being in the FFP. I've got a JPJ1 and a circle chevron scope that I find unusable on 1x for up close and fast targets. Erik Lund is working with them to get them to incorporate his new reticle design into the rear focal plane. Now the hold up is getting it illuminated in the rear focal plane. On a side note..........their glass is phenomenal. Their 4x is so clear and distortion free its almost like 6x. Why do you find it unusable @ close range, is it becaue it's not illuminate or ??? Bill Because you can't see it. Its too small. 1x is for up close and fast. The reticle in FFP is not for up close and fast. Illumination sure would help. I should be recieving my USO SN1-4 Slimline anyday, I ordered it with a illuminated Green Circle Dot. I will let you all know how it works close up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill J Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Their reticles suck being in the FFP. I've got a JPJ1 and a circle chevron scope that I find unusable on 1x for up close and fast targets. Erik Lund is working with them to get them to incorporate his new reticle design into the rear focal plane. Now the hold up is getting it illuminated in the rear focal plane. On a side note..........their glass is phenomenal. Their 4x is so clear and distortion free its almost like 6x. Why do you find it unusable @ close range, is it becaue it's not illuminate or ??? Bill Because you can't see it. Its too small. 1x is for up close and fast. The reticle in FFP is not for up close and fast. Illumination sure would help. I should be recieving my USO SN1-4 Slimline anyday, I ordered it with a illuminated Green Circle Dot. I will let you all know how it works close up... Keep us posted, that was what I was wondering about, except in a JPJ1 reticle. I emailed USO about that and they said that the entire reticle would be illuminated with this choice and I'm still curious on how bright it is. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Their reticles suck being in the FFP. I've got a JPJ1 and a circle chevron scope that I find unusable on 1x for up close and fast targets. Erik Lund is working with them to get them to incorporate his new reticle design into the rear focal plane. Now the hold up is getting it illuminated in the rear focal plane. On a side note..........their glass is phenomenal. Their 4x is so clear and distortion free its almost like 6x. Why do you find it unusable @ close range, is it becaue it's not illuminate or ??? Bill Because you can't see it. Its too small. 1x is for up close and fast. The reticle in FFP is not for up close and fast. Illumination sure would help. I should be recieving my USO SN1-4 Slimline anyday, I ordered it with a illuminated Green Circle Dot. I will let you all know how it works close up... Keep us posted, that was what I was wondering about, except in a JPJ1 reticle. I emailed USO about that and they said that the entire reticle would be illuminated with this choice and I'm still curious on how bright it is. Bill The green and red illumination are not visible enough to use in daylight. The JPJ1 reticle is barely visible on 1x. It looks like a speck in the lens about the size of the capital letter I typed in MS Word on font size 12. It can't be picked up with any speed until 2.5x and its very small. USO's illumination is only good for overcast conditions at best in red or green. I have a JPJ1 in green and a circle chevron in red. Both are the slimline. Their reticles in the front focal plane are pretty much too small for any speed up close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I have the Schmidt & Bender with Mil Dot and there is absolutely no other scope with the same glass quality, period! Here is a picture of the reticle from AR15.com SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastshooter03 Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 I didn't think the S & B was that special when we looked at them at the shot show. The marines must like something about them. I bet USO might have something to say about Image quality/durability vs $$$. I'll let them fight their own battles though. I don't understand why the US military can't stick with a US made scope. Leupold and USO aren't good enough for the Military? Maybe somebody better informed can shed some light. It would be surprising if USO can't offer a lit RFP reticle in their SN4. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustShootOK Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Go with US Optics 1x4. Screw the Germans Their reticles suck being in the FFP. I've got a JPJ1 and a circle chevron scope that I find unusable on 1x for up close and fast targets. Erik Lund is working with them to get them to incorporate his new reticle design into the rear focal plane. Now the hold up is getting it illuminated in the rear focal plane. On a side note..........their glass is phenomenal. Their 4x is so clear and distortion free its almost like 6x. Why do you find it unusable @ close range, is it becaue it's not illuminate or ??? Bill Because you can't see it. Its too small. 1x is for up close and fast. The reticle in FFP is not for up close and fast. Illumination sure would help. I should be recieving my USO SN1-4 Slimline anyday, I ordered it with a illuminated Green Circle Dot. I will let you all know how it works close up... Keep us posted, that was what I was wondering about, except in a JPJ1 reticle. I emailed USO about that and they said that the entire reticle would be illuminated with this choice and I'm still curious on how bright it is. Bill The green and red illumination are not visible enough to use in daylight. The JPJ1 reticle is barely visible on 1x. It looks like a speck in the lens about the size of the capital letter I typed in MS Word on font size 12. It can't be picked up with any speed until 2.5x and its very small. USO's illumination is only good for overcast conditions at best in red or green. I have a JPJ1 in green and a circle chevron in red. Both are the slimline. Their reticles in the front focal plane are pretty much too small for any speed up close. OK, I got my scope mounted and have not had a chance to go zero it in and play with it. A couple of observations though. The scope is well built, beefy to say the least, when you are out of ammo or have a weapon failure you can remove the scope and beat someone with it and you will probally not damage the scope! Bill is correct in saying the illuminated reticle is not daylight visible. Overcast, evening and twilight it works fine. The reticle in FFP is very small at 1x. Being a circle dot reticle it tends to converge together and provides a more concentrated image then Chevron dot I imagine. To be honest, it is not what I expected. If I was not going to 3-gun with it I could live with it, then agian I would have choose a different reticle and maybe a different scope. If the retitcle was daylight illumed very bright it would work much better for your eye to pick up quickly. I think I can still shoot it close reasonably fast, but having said that, one reason I elected to spend serious money on an optic is for advantage. My original criteria was a purpose built, mil-grade optic, true 1x4 variable , illuminated circle dot reticle, high -quality glass, great FOV numbers at 1x and 4x. The SN4 delivers on all points except one that I did not spec out to myself because I was not aware of it. That now appears to be a RFP reticle. From my understanding though , there are advantages to the FFP, primarily with accuarcy and consistency when going from low to high power. The MOA of the ring and and dot on the scope lend itself to shoot well at distance. I believe it is a 2.5 MOA dot which is fairly precise for our ranges that we shoot with a .223. I was hoping that the SN4 would offer the best of quick target acquisition when power is at 1x for multiple targets ranging from 5 to 50 yards before you would reach up twist the power up if needed. Another thing I really do like about it is the large , checkered power adjustment knob, it is easy to adjust power and the rotation is fast. Well that is all I can really say without having shot the darn thing. Will I send it back? DOn't know, really need to shoot it, I don't want to, I waited three months for it! I think it is a fine optic, will it do what I need it to do, I will find out, I plan on going out tommorow. Let you all know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastshooter03 Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 I wonder if adding some length to the scope body in the front will help with the ILL reticle. I know it might cut down on the FOV but it might be worth a try. We've always wondered why the Meopta is so long since the front lense is way into the front of the scope body. Maybe that's why their reticle is bright. Anyone want to cut off their Meopta and tell us what happens? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustShootOK Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 Well...got it zeroed in with no problem, I enjoyed shooting with it, I did a little shoot n move with it, the FOV at 1x is excelent, pretty quick to the eye to pick up, at 100 yds and 4x it just lets you punch em right in with no problem. I was shooting at a 20 yd Rapid fire pistol target. The black center is approx. 3.75 in. The dot at 4x cover the black center at 100 yds, I was grouping about 2.5" with 16" 1-9 twist, handloaded 55 grain softpoints. I was just shooting of a bag and not really getting to anal. I haven't shot with a wide variety of optics , so I can't really comment on whether it is better then any other set-up. Overall I am pleased, I like the quality, looks and it is better then the Leoupold 1x4 Turket scope I was previously shooting, one thing I can do that I could not do before with the Leopold is change power on the move, within a couple of steps I can twist it from 1 to 4 and keep hammering. I posted on You tube a little shootin with it... Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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