why so many guns shoot to the left

[Bud]

Yep tough love coming, no offense intended

I have a saying,

Its a trigger, not a button

Pour it on bros!! I dig it!!

[Bud]

....and welcome once again!

Some answers are simple, however the solution is very difficult. Certainly your shooting left issue could be a variety of things. Assuming you have eliminated sights, wind, grip, stance, breathing and other variables, I would say the most likely culprit is that during your trigger press you have a tendency (albeit consistent) to cause the gun to move to the left at the time of hammer fall.

If some of this was already mentioned, forgive me for being redundant.

Do you shoot other peoples guns to the "left of where they shoot" their guns? Do other people shoot your gun favoring the same left? What happens if you shoot your gun left handed? Can you use the alternate eye, what is the result? Has a good left handed shooter shot your gun. Result?

The above should offer some diagnosis for you to eliminate what is not the cause. If you can not do the some of the above tests, then can you carefully sand bag the gun(s) and shoot both left handed and right handed? If you find left handed immensely challenging then try, using both left hand and right hand trigger fingers at the same time, or maybe even right hand grip, left trigger finger. The experiment here is to try to determine if the gun continues to shoot left, regardless. If it doesn't then trigger pull is most likely the culprit. Why?

The trigger must be moved in order for the gun to fire. DA requires quite a bit of movement, and SA much less, but still movement. It is difficult to pull a trigger straight to the rear when the instrument (finger) used to pull the trigger must rotate in an arch. It must be an arch, since the pivot point (knuckle) of the finger is about an inch away. If right handed to the right, if left handed to the left. The NATURAL tendency is for the finger tip or pad (contact point with trigger) to move in a slight arc. To prove this, think of your knuckle as an axle, and your finger contact point on trigger as the radius. If you keep the axle or pivot in place and move the finger tip, you have scribed an arc. Keep going and you have a semi-circle, yet more you have a circle.

A right handed shooter will scribe that arc (exaggerated) from 12 oclock to 9 oclock then to 6 oclock. The bow or arc is to the left, and that is the direction that the muzzle tends to go during trigger press, unless you have identified the sympton and have corrected it through slightly differing grip, or trigger finger placement. The right handed shooter tends to do the opposite.

Shooting DA gun DA mode can be a good teacher to reveal this condition since the trigger has to move much further, thus the arc is more pronounced. For some shooting DA, the initial trigger pull may move the muzzle to one side or the other, yet when the trigger finger & trigger get to about where the hammer falls, then the pressure to favor one side or the other as stopped and the trigger then is pressed straight to the rear at that critical point.

And yet finally to make a point. If all else fails and you are confident that the gun is sighted in MZ (mechanical zero) yet you still shoot to the left. Then some how shoot the gun upside down, right handed! My guess is that now it will shoot to the "right" and possibly slightly high.

Mastering the fundamentals is a long process. My background is accuracy shooting, where the trigger control becomes so important, especially on the longer shots. Long meaning 50 yds. No matter how well all the other shooting fundamentals are applied, no matter how accurate the load or the gun, improper trigger pull will ERASE all of it and at any distance it doesn't take much! Poor trigger control is the eraser of shooting good shots, shot after shot.

Have fun, be safe!

Martin

Ahh the contructive response I was looking for!!! thanks some answers to your questions...No I shoot other peoples guns to the same P.O.I. as they do. Everyone (that has learned to shoot) that shoots my guns finds them to be mech. zeroed.When I shoot my guns left hand only I can only shoot a group at 25 just in the a-zone (about 6in.) and its slow.But the P.O.I. does not change and I throw about the same amount of "milk the trigger type" low left hits as I usually do.Yes I have experimented with using my right eye...no difference in P.O.I. Last fall I was considering having my right eye lasiked, my eye doc popped in a $4 contact and WOW! 20/20. My right eye was previously -1.00 and I could never get used to glasses so thats just how it was and I adapted.Since getting the contact my shooting is improving considerably but it made no difference in any of my guns P.O.I. The only thing I ve noticed since then is my XD is 3in. left at 40yds. which I could care less about. thanks again

[Allgoodhits]

....and welcome once again!

Some answers are simple, however the solution is very difficult. Certainly your shooting left issue could be a variety of things. Assuming you have eliminated sights, wind, grip, stance, breathing and other variables, I would say the most likely culprit is that during your trigger press you have a tendency (albeit consistent) to cause the gun to move to the left at the time of hammer fall.

If some of this was already mentioned, forgive me for being redundant.

Do you shoot other peoples guns to the "left of where they shoot" their guns? Do other people shoot your gun favoring the same left? What happens if you shoot your gun left handed? Can you use the alternate eye, what is the result? Has a good left handed shooter shot your gun. Result?

The above should offer some diagnosis for you to eliminate what is not the cause. If you can not do the some of the above tests, then can you carefully sand bag the gun(s) and shoot both left handed and right handed? If you find left handed immensely challenging then try, using both left hand and right hand trigger fingers at the same time, or maybe even right hand grip, left trigger finger. The experiment here is to try to determine if the gun continues to shoot left, regardless. If it doesn't then trigger pull is most likely the culprit. Why?

The trigger must be moved in order for the gun to fire. DA requires quite a bit of movement, and SA much less, but still movement. It is difficult to pull a trigger straight to the rear when the instrument (finger) used to pull the trigger must rotate in an arch. It must be an arch, since the pivot point (knuckle) of the finger is about an inch away. If right handed to the right, if left handed to the left. The NATURAL tendency is for the finger tip or pad (contact point with trigger) to move in a slight arc. To prove this, think of your knuckle as an axle, and your finger contact point on trigger as the radius. If you keep the axle or pivot in place and move the finger tip, you have scribed an arc. Keep going and you have a semi-circle, yet more you have a circle.

A right handed shooter will scribe that arc (exaggerated) from 12 oclock to 9 oclock then to 6 oclock. The bow or arc is to the left, and that is the direction that the muzzle tends to go during trigger press, unless you have identified the sympton and have corrected it through slightly differing grip, or trigger finger placement. The right handed shooter tends to do the opposite.

Shooting DA gun DA mode can be a good teacher to reveal this condition since the trigger has to move much further, thus the arc is more pronounced. For some shooting DA, the initial trigger pull may move the muzzle to one side or the other, yet when the trigger finger & trigger get to about where the hammer falls, then the pressure to favor one side or the other as stopped and the trigger then is pressed straight to the rear at that critical point.

And yet finally to make a point. If all else fails and you are confident that the gun is sighted in MZ (mechanical zero) yet you still shoot to the left. Then some how shoot the gun upside down, right handed! My guess is that now it will shoot to the "right" and possibly slightly high.

Mastering the fundamentals is a long process. My background is accuracy shooting, where the trigger control becomes so important, especially on the longer shots. Long meaning 50 yds. No matter how well all the other shooting fundamentals are applied, no matter how accurate the load or the gun, improper trigger pull will ERASE all of it and at any distance it doesn't take much! Poor trigger control is the eraser of shooting good shots, shot after shot.

Have fun, be safe!

Martin

Ahh the contructive response I was looking for!!! thanks some answers to your questions...No I shoot other peoples guns to the same P.O.I. as they do. Everyone (that has learned to shoot) that shoots my guns finds them to be mech. zeroed.When I shoot my guns left hand only I can only shoot a group at 25 just in the a-zone (about 6in.) and its slow.But the P.O.I. does not change and I throw about the same amount of "milk the trigger type" low left hits as I usually do.Yes I have experimented with using my right eye...no difference in P.O.I. Last fall I was considering having my right eye lasiked, my eye doc popped in a $4 contact and WOW! 20/20. My right eye was previously -1.00 and I could never get used to glasses so thats just how it was and I adapted.Since getting the contact my shooting is improving considerably but it made no difference in any of my guns P.O.I. The only thing I ve noticed since then is my XD is 3in. left at 40yds. which I could care less about. thanks again

Bud,

The vision thing is huge. If I wear contacts and shoot with a red dot scope my shooting eye takes a

-4.00. If shooting post/notch sights it needs to be a -3.25.

Do you happen to shoot at the same time of day most times that you shoot your gun, and if so is it outdoors and if so where is the sun? For many shooters with post/notch type sights the sun has an effect. I tend to shoot toward the side the sun is on, if it is a bright sun. The reason appears to be that the bright sun makes that "side" of the sight alignment look lighter/brighter, when in fact there may be less "space". If I am shooting in bright sun on one side and shooting at 25 yds or greater I will take a couple clicks toward the sun. Sometimes don't be afraid to change the sights, other times if you think you need 4 clicks, take two on the gun and teo in your head. Knowing the difference can be the key!

Finally, make a sight adjustment on that gun to get you MZ. Later, if you find that you are shooting the other way, take another sight adjustment! You said you were shooting groups. If you are shooting basically "round" groups not matter the size, and they are off center, then adjust the sights. If you are shooting a "round" group then you are pressing/pulling the trigger properly, because the shots are breaking radomly within your wobble area. Move the group by either hold-off or sight adjustment. Later the group size will shrink as your hold gets better, or your ammo or firearm improve.

The champion is determined by the fewest bad shots, usually not the number of best shots. We all tend to let a zinger fly from time to time. I called these moons, or satelites. A scattering of moons around your group is an indication of porr quality ammo, or just a loose day. When the bad shots tend to go in one quarter outside the group is a better indication of an intermittent shooting error. Resolving that can be difficult, but calling your shots certainly makes it easier to start to diagnosis.

Have fun,

MJ

[bofe954]

A basic pistol class I took had everybody aim at a target while an instructor pulled the trigger. It was a little awkward getting a decent grip while leaving room for someone else to pull the trigger, but it was enlightening how accurate you could be when you weren't responsible for the trigger.

Hand me a DA/SA or DAO and I'll shoot a nice low left group for you. 1911's seem to do it least for me. When I shot my G17 a lot, I overcame it, but I'd probably do it again now.

[jsneff]

I think the earlier post about benching the gun is correct. The answers to this problem can also be found in the latest Front Sight magazine. In an article where Big Daddy E's method for gaining trigger control starts you out shooting the pistol from... the bench, using... sandbags! I know I tend to experience the left of center grouping, or as I call it, my "controlled flinch". But as we all know, no flinch is a good flinch.

Edited March 24, 2008 by jsneff

[mikey357]

When I was but a YOUNG BOY--back in the Stone Age, IF anyone asks--it was explained to me that you can USUALLY pick up another man's RIFLE and, ASSUMING it is "Zeroed" correctly, make pretty good hits with it...but that this was MORE DIFFICULT to do with the PISTOL because there are more VARIABLES affecting POI with the handgun, i.e., grip pressure, hand size, stance, upper body strength, EYESIGHT, etc.--so that "Zeroing" a handgun was an INDIVIDUAL thing...

If you doubt this, find a copy of "Cooper on Handguns", and look at the section where the good Colonel shows targets HE shot superimposed on targets that Ray Chapman shot, with the SAME GUN and ammo...considerably DIFFERENT POI between the two esteemed shooters, BOTH of whom were, at the time the targets were fired, true MASTERS of the Handgun...

I guess where I am going with this is that I am SICK AND TIRED of everyone telling people whose Handguns print "Low, Left" out-of-the-box that THEY, the SHOOTER, are somehow DEFFICIENT...kinda' like diagnosing an ILLNESS "Long-Distance", over the internet...it MIGHT be a HEART ATTACK, but it COULD BE just HEARTBURN...

IF you shoot nice, round groups, and IF you don't have an unusually high number of "WTF is THAT one WAY out there for?" kinda' shots, then you should probably MOVE your sights so that the POI coincides with the POA..."Zeroing" the gun for YOU...

RANT mode OFF... ....mikey357

[Bud]

When I was but a YOUNG BOY--back in the Stone Age, IF anyone asks--it was explained to me that you can USUALLY pick up another man's RIFLE and, ASSUMING it is "Zeroed" correctly, make pretty good hits with it...but that this was MORE DIFFICULT to do with the PISTOL because there are more VARIABLES affecting POI with the handgun, i.e., grip pressure, hand size, stance, upper body strength, EYESIGHT, etc.--so that "Zeroing" a handgun was an INDIVIDUAL thing...

If you doubt this, find a copy of "Cooper on Handguns", and look at the section where the good Colonel shows targets HE shot superimposed on targets that Ray Chapman shot, with the SAME GUN and ammo...considerably DIFFERENT POI between the two esteemed shooters, BOTH of whom were, at the time the targets were fired, true MASTERS of the Handgun...

I guess where I am going with this is that I am SICK AND TIRED of everyone telling people whose Handguns print "Low, Left" out-of-the-box that THEY, the SHOOTER, are somehow DEFFICIENT...kinda' like diagnosing an ILLNESS "Long-Distance", over the internet...it MIGHT be a HEART ATTACK, but it COULD BE just HEARTBURN...

IF you shoot nice, round groups, and IF you don't have an unusually high number of "WTF is THAT one WAY out there for?" kinda' shots, then you should probably MOVE your sights so that the POI coincides with the POA..."Zeroing" the gun for YOU...

RANT mode OFF... ....mikey357

..............................AMEN!!!!!.........and LORD PLEASE FORGIVE ME for posting this thread in the first place!!!!I promise I will never again try to reason with...........................................

[Merlin Orr]

I hear the story about how the gun shoots different with two different shooters.. Well Duh... I squeeze with my right hand while the next guy is a milker while the next guy is left eye dominant... If you put the sights on a target and squeeze off a round without disturbing the sight picture "so many guns will Not shoot to the left" ..or whatever...

If you really want to know WHERE the gun shoots put it in a Ransome Rest. All the rest is subject to you and your influence on the gun. Milking and yanking and wanking and flinching.....

If we listen to enough people we can always find someone to agree with any theory about why........

and, of course as always..... YMMV - kids don't try this at home and yada yada yada.... My.02 etc...

[spook]

Man, I have started a few threads on this because I shot to the left with my Glock 17.

I know so many people who can shoot, but still have to drift the sights of the gun (especially Glocks) to the right.

There seem to be two camps on this subject.

1) The "learn to shoot" crowd. The sights should be perfectly centered and you will have to change your technique until you hit the middle of the target

2) The "move the sights" crowd. Just learn to shoot good groups (3" at 50yds is very good) and move the sights so you hit the middle.

I fall somewhere in the middle.

I cannot believe how many people will just assume that a gun will hit the middle when everything is centered "just because it should".

Even Heinie made his sight with the notch slightly off-center because some guns just don't shoot in the middle.

I can follow the argument that a gun is a mechanical device and when fired from a Ransom rest, it also hits the middle. But the human body is not a machine (well, except mine of course ). There are so many factors that will result is slight differences for everybody, and especially with handguns.

Then again, you should of course obtain a certain level of accuracy before you move the sights. If your shots land "everywhere", there's no point in moving the sights to compensate.

Seems like you are alreadya great shot.

To answer you initial question:

Why do so many guns shoot to the left?

I think, that is because all the force on the trigger comes from a finger that (in most cases) is attached to the hand on the right side of the gun.

You can work on minimizing the influence of this, but it will always be there.

With Glocks, I think they just shoot to the left. Yesterday, on the range, I shot some groups @ 25yds. All center hits. Then, I moved to a plate rack (6" plates) and shot them weak hand. All hits.

The sights are drifted to the right about 0.05".

Why does it shoot like that? Beats me.

Edited April 1, 2008 by spook

[Merlin Orr]

In regard to MY post....

This is a quote from a friend of mine. It is a great one for sure and is very accurate in nearly all instances. I should use it as a disclaimer every time I make a post.

"The above post is just my opinion. It isn't better than anyone else's and there's a good chance that it is BS, and based on theory instead of experience. The best scenario is that I based my opinion on my experiences. But these may be totally different from yours.

If you want the answer to your question, just go out there and experience ." Björn Dietrich